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revelation19 · 4 years

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How come that you still believe in the heresies of calvinism? It goes against everything the early church taught, it has no connection to the historical church and has been rehashing old heresies ad infinitum. I have myself been a calvinist until I bothered reading all the church fathers. Nothing even remotely like it has ever been taught by the early church. To be deep in history truly means to cease to be a protestant.

The very fact that your page is full of those reformed clowns is proof enough that you know nothing about the early church apart from the brain washing you might have undergone in the seminary. you quote John Calvin instead of people like Clement of Rome, St. Athanasius etc Your theology is a joke at best, and damnable heresy at worst. You dont believe ANYTHING the early church believed. That level of ignorance is mind blowing.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. - sounds an awful a lot like your heretical group.

Notice how you didn’t mention anything about how Calvinism goes against Scripture? Strange huh?

I’ll start off by simply quoting Calvin’s own response to this claim.

“They [Catholics, i.e. you] unjustly set the ancient father against us (I mean the ancient writers of a better age of the Church) as if in them they had supporters of their own impiety. If the contest were to be determined by patristic authority, the tide of victory--to put it very modestly--would turn to our side. Now, these fathers have written many wise and excellent things. Still, what commonly happens to men has befallen them too, in some instances. For these so-called pious children of theirs, with all their sharpness of wit and judgment and spirit, worship only the faults and errors of the fathers. The good things that these fathers have written they either do not notice, or misrepresent or pervert. You might say that their only care is to gather dung amid gold. Then, with a frightful to-do, they overwhelm us as despisers and adversaries of the fathers! But we do not despise them; in fact, if it were to our present purpose, I could with no trouble at all prove that the greater part of what we are saying today meets their approval...

He who does not observe this distinction will have nothing certain in religion, inasmuch as these holy men were ignorant of many things, often disagreed among themselves, and sometimes even contradicted themselves. It is not without cause, they say that Solomon bids us not to transgress the limits set by our fathers (Prov. 22:28). But the same rule does not apply to boundaries of fields, and to obedience of faith, which must be so disposed that “it forgets its people and its father’s house” (Ps. 45:10). But if they love to allegorize so much, why do they not accept the apostles (rather than anyone else) as the “fathers” who have set the landmarks that it is unlawful to remove (Prov. 22:28)? Thus has Jerome interpreted this verse, and they have written his words in to their canons. But if our opponents want to preserve the limits set by the fathers according to their understanding of them, why do they themselves transgress them so willfully as often as it suits them?” -John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion

He goes on to list several occasions where the fathers explicitly disagree with official Catholic Dogma.

I’ll list some of those quotations from the fathers here and elaborate on how they contradict the Roman Catholic Church.

“Sozomen tells a remarkable story of Spyridion, bishop of Trimythus, in Cyprus, ‘That a stranger once happening to call upon him, in his travels in Lent, he having nothing in his house but a piece of pork, ordered that to be dressed and set before him: but the stranger refusing to eat flesh, saying, ‘He was a Christian,’ Spyridion replied, ‘For that very reason thou oughtest not to refuse it; for the word of God has pronounced all things clean to them that are clean.’” -Origines Ecclesiasticæ: Or, The Antiquities of the Christian Church

Here Spyridion says that it is unchristian to mandate fasting from meat during Lent as Christ has made all foods clean.

“For our Lord Jesus Christ, dwelling in your inner part, and inspiring into you a solicitude of fatherly and brotherly charity, whether our sons and brothers the monks, who neglect to obey blessed Paul the Apostle, when he says, “If any will not work, neither let him eat,” are to have that license permitted unto them; He, assuming unto His work your will and tongue, has commanded me out of you, that I should hereof write somewhat unto you. May He therefore Himself be present with me also, that I may obey in such sort that from His gift, in the very usefulness of fruitful labor, I may understand that I am indeed obeying Him.” -Augustine, On the Work of Monks

Here Augustine calls into question the entire monastic system and shows that it is contrary to Scripture.

“When I accompanied you to the holy place called Bethel, there to join you in celebrating the Collect, after the use of the Church, I came to a villa called Anablatha and, as I was passing, saw a lamp burning there. Asking what place it was, and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray, and found there a curtain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered. It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was. Seeing this, and being loth that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person.” -Epistle of Epiphanius to John of Jerusalem

Here Epiphanius shows that the use of images in Worship is not to be permitted. This position was reinforced by the 36th canon of the Council of Elvira which said “That there ought not to be images in a church, that what is worshipped and adored should not be depicted on the walls.”

"The sacrament of the body and blood of Christ, which we receive, is a divine thing, because by it we are made partakers of the divine-nature. Yet the substance or nature of the bread and wine does not cease. And assuredly the image and the similitude of the body and blood of Christ are celebrated in the performance of the mysteries.” - Galasius I, On the Dual Natures of Christ.

In this quote Galatius I rejects transubstantiation and points out that the elements represent a similitude of the body and blood. This is not to be confused with Zwinglian memorialism nor Lutheran Consubstantiation.

“In obscure matters where the Scriptures do not give guidance, rash judgment is to be avoided.” -Augustine, The Guilt and Remission of Sin; and Infant Baptism.

Augustine says that Scripture is to be the norming norm for all knowledge and that anywhere the Scriptures are silent we are to proceed with caution.

“Zealous of reforming the life of those who were engaged about the churches, the Synod enacted laws which were called canons. While they were deliberating about this, some thought that a law ought to be passed enacting that bishops and presbyters, deacons and subdeacons, should hold no intercourse with the wife they had espoused before they entered the priesthood; but Paphnutius, the confessor, stood up and testified against this proposition; he said that marriage was honorable and chaste, and that cohabitation with their own wives was chastity, and advised the Synod not to frame such a law, for it would be difficult to bear.” -Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History.

Here is a passage which describes Paphnutius arguing against celibacy of the pastorate at the council of Nicea. Paphnutius won and pastoral celibacy was not included in the Canons of the Council of Nicea.

Some of these are a bit dated and obscure, so I’ll include a couple quotes from people that you mentioned...

“And we, too, being called by His will to Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” -Clement of Rome, The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians

Clement of Rome is affirming the justification by faith in no uncertain terms here.

“The Holy and inspired Scriptures are sufficient of themselves for the preaching of the Truth.” - Athanasius, Contra Gentiles

Athanasius is saying that the Scriptures alone are sufficient, that there is no need to appeal to the Fathers or councils or popes or anything else... just the Word of God.

Now, you quote Cardinal Newman to say to be deep in Church history is to cease to be protestant... but I’m not even going to get into the history of Roman Catholic Church because this post is already way too long... and that would make it probably 3 times longer. I’ll just bring up this one anecdote from 1378 in which there were 3 popes simultaneously and they had to call a council to resolve the issue, forever dissolving any appeal to papal succession/authority.

#Anonymous

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