#sry if this is disjointed and incoherent i wrote so much just to disagree with you but it made me think and also break out tbk to do so | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

fyodorkitkat · 5 months

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Hiiiiiii <33333 so! I know we know next to nothing about fyodor and Nikolai’s relationship BUT I had an epiphany and since we know that fyodor is inspired by Ivan Karamazov and specifically the scene with his devil, how do you feel about Nikolai=Ivan Karamazov’s devil and whatever this implies???

Tomà idk if you love me or want to torment me by sending me this.

I haven't reread The Brothers Karamazov still (I read it when I was a teenager so my memory is not great) so I don't know that I'm a great person to ask about this at all. I'm also not great at analysis posts and I am doing this all on my phone. But I like you, so I want to try at least, so I reread the part with Ivan's conversation with the devil in his delirium. You're welcome.

Is this a good fit for Nikolai's role? I'm not so sure that it is.

Because what I get from that part is that Ivan is having a conversation with an apparition born from his delirious state, and that the "devil" exists within himself.

Not to say that he has no hope or is literally the devil, it makes sense with some of the other things the devil explains and the nature of the conversation that makes it seem like Ivan is angry for being in his mind. (It seems more like anger for him appearing and being in his room but if we are going off it being a hallucination influenced by Ivan's subconscious the room is his mind then that is where the devil actually is)

Wait a damn minute where else have we heard this reference to rooms...

"I am crime. I am punishment. Crime and punishment are close friends. Borders vanish. Rooms awaken. The incarnation of death, the master of the ability-consuming fog… Eat, howl, and make violence as your instinct desires. This is neither a loss of control nor a singularity." Fyodor Dostoyevsky - Dead Apple

**I'm going to come back to this after i finish explaining why I don't think Nikolai is fit to be representative of the devil to Fyodor's Ivan but you can probably already guess *who* i think is**

Anyways back on track sorry I'm not great at this sort of thing at all. So Ivan's conversation with the devil to me comes across as an internal struggle between good and evil. The devil's statements (and he really does most of the talking) are around the nature of the devil and the idea of the necessity of evil (the devil goes as far as to say nothing would happen without evil, like if there was nothing to go against there would be no events and nothing to life). He also explains the devil exists in everyone's daily lives in mundane ways, but also that the devil (and God) can exist inside of people too.

“All the rest around me, all those worlds, God, even Satan himself – for me all that is unproven, whether it exists in itself, or is only my emanation, a consistent development of my, I, which exists pre-temporally and uniquely”

There is also a part where the devil explains that without him, there would be nothing but hosanna (/joy) and that life of nothing but joy isn't a life really at all, basically saying that it would be a life with nothing happening and no suffering but a life without suffering and only joy could be it's own hell.

This is doesn't really align with Nikolai's beliefs right? He sees awareness of what he views as the cage he (and people that just aren't aware) is in as the cause of his issues. That people are unaware that they aren't truly free, but he is aware and has to rid himself of what he views as chaining him (settling on his feelings for Fyodor in the end).

Now you could argue that maybe Nikolai would agree with the devil here in the sense that a life of blissful unawareness is similar to a life of nothing but joy, with nothing happening, and that is a hell in and of itself. But I think they are talking about two different things, because I don't think Nikolai thinks people who aren't aware of their cage lack suffering, or lack the existence of evil in their day to day lives. They don't have that life of nothing but joy that the devil is talking about so I don't think they mesh well enough to say it works as a representation of Nikolai.

Also, Nikolai doesn't appear to be trying to convince Fyodor of ideas, his battle is with himself, so that also doesn't fit the role of the devil in this chapter I don't think not for Fyodor.

Basically, none of this to me is screaming Nikolai. But if you had ideas as to why you think it does I'm definitely down to hear them.

If Fyodor is inspired by this scene in tbk it think this means that Fyodor is Ivan and Fyodor's ability (or also Fyodor himself at the same time) is the devil. Because the devil in the form Ivan witnesses is part of Ivan in the first place, it comes from his mind, and from what I rememeber he is lonely in comparison to the other characters in that book, so who does he wrestle with these issues with around his guilt and concerns? Himself, and he figures out his path from there. Ivan even says it himself to the devil at one point, "You are myself.”

The words the devil speaks and the concepts he argues aren't created from nothing, but related to the role of Satan and evil, this is just him essentially arguing outloud with himself about these things. It also why he probably is really not into accepting a lot of the ideas about faith the devil also explains to him, because it is like he is presenting them to himself via hallucination.

Anyways I am absolutely rambling, so back to the dead apple quote.

"I am crime. I am punishment. Crime and punishment are close friends. Borders vanish. Rooms awaken."

If the devil is born of Ivan's psyche and loneliness is that not similar to a sort of friend? The devil appears in his feverish delerium, maybe exactly when he needs him to, to have this conversation about evil, God, and challenging Ivan's reliance on logic. Maybe you could argue the border between the "devil" or "evil" in him and the rest of him disappeared for that moment, and "the devil" awoke in his room with him, letting them talk as if he was a separate being.

Maybe that's Fyodor, and the writers for dead apple (since they got that speech from Asagiri about Fyodor's character) took inspiration from that?

To me, Nikolai doesn't have anything to do with it. And that also makes sense I think, because from what we do see with their relationship and Nikolai's own words, he didn't know him very well. It didn't sound like they were very close or had deep conversations prior with what Nikolai said after his death.

Plus when you take into account the breakdown that might be lies or might have truth where he says he was weak and his ability took over because of that, and that his ability is evil, the constant references to him being a demon, and the weird differences between Fyodor's separated ability in dead apple compared to everyone else's.

I think there is more of an argument to be made that Fyodor's ability is more akin to the devil in The Brothers Karamazov in that chapter, or Fyodor himself is both. That he's based off Ivan in that scene and the devil is part of Ivan's psyche because of his condition, so Fyodor is both because that part is also a part of him as well. But since abilities are tied so closely to their users, it makes sense either way to me.

#sry if this is disjointed and incoherent i wrote so much just to disagree with you but it made me think and also break out tbk to do so #when i havent even read it since like 2006 and havent started my reread of it yet even though i said i would #so im mostly joking about the torment thank you so much for the ask tomà im mostly touched that you thought to send this to me #bsd analysis #bsd fyodor #bsd nikolai #bsd #ill tag this but sry sry i did this on my phone pretty quickly #but i am totally down to hear other ppls takes or potential additions on it so that is why #-Lue asks #sry for any grammer and spelling errors too i might edit this later idk #i didnt want to nit pick it forever

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