I read through your Jonsa meta linked in your bio and I don’t think I’ll ever be able to really love Jonsa but the part where you say J*nerys evidence is weak sauce like I do like the ship but I only want it if it doesn’t go like the show and it also isn’t just some boring king and queen of the seven kingdoms crap but do think what people call foreshadowing for the ship is no stronger than Jonsa foreshadowing but I get dog piled by other J*nerys shippers for admitting this. I do think some common evidence for Jonsa is questionable. Like that GRRM was originally going to have Janos be hung until someone ELSE pointed out that Jon would probably do it the northern way and behead him, or that lady Ashford didn’t end up with the Targaryen suitor. But even still I don’t think that the evidence for J*nerys is strong. Like sorry I don’t think Dany being called bride of fire implies she’ll marry Jon I think she already is the bride of fire. I used to hate Jonsa but I realized that I feel very neutral to it. What I hate is the thought of a love triangle with Jon, Dany, and Sansa. The idea of Dany going mad because she loves Jon but Jon loves Sansa is just so tired and boring and sexist. I understand that a lot of the spite towards J*nerys fans is earned because they can be just as spiteful but my first introductions to Jonsa were in the context of this love triangle and the attitude was so spiteful that it put a bad taste in my mouth for years. But even when I did hate it I felt like other J*nerys fans were being hypocritical when they made of Jonsas for their theories. And I got shat on and accused of being a Jonsa myself for saying so. Like it’s eyebrow raising that George revised his Stark family tree to include a marriage between a Jonnel and a Sansa. Regardless of what George originally wrote, Jon beheading Janos is compelling. I do see the vision even it’s not for me. Jon and Dany don’t know each other exist. I think the only thing that really gives J*nerys leverage is that they loved each other in the show and I’ve always had a hard time believing that George actually gave D&D like two plot points and turned them loose to do literally whatever they could come up with. If the show didn’t exist, you’d be hard pressed to convince me there was a viable chance J*nerys would happen and I really just hate the animosity between Jonsa and J*nerys shippers

I’m gonna take this point by point bc it’s kind of a lot and I want to address it all!!

do think what people call foreshadowing for the ship is no stronger than Jonsa foreshadowing but I get dog piled by other J*nerys shippers for admitting this.

LISTEN i’m glad you agree lmaoooo because my number one bitter hater issue re: the ship war IS that imo the “evidence” for both is kinda opaque, but only one is treated as being legitimate fan analysis. like, people will call sansa’s ghost wolf a reach but dany hearing the lonely wolf is full proof even tho this is the exact same thing. or the entire hullabaloo around how when you use the ashford tourney theory to be about Not Jonsa it's valid analysis but when it is about Jonsa then that's just pushing your ship. it’s the silliness of the argument that drives me crazy, that one take is considered “just starting a ship war” and one is the “proper” reading of the text. we don't know who is properly reading the text because we don't have the entire text yet!!!

I do think some common evidence for Jonsa is questionable. Like that GRRM was originally going to have Janos be hung until someone ELSE pointed out that Jon would probably do it the northern way and behead him, or that lady Ashford didn’t end up with the Targaryen suitor.

WAIT OKAY i'm not trying to convert you here lmao, merely explaining my reasoning for those because I know I talk about the Jason/Ashford thing a lot specifically so - the janos slynt thing for me is less the specificity that jon cuts his head off and more that sansa wishes for someone to kill janos for his hand in ned’s death and jon, without any knowledge of what janos did or how it affected sansa, sees straight to the sort of person janos is and executes him. more so about the idea that sansa is praying for a hero only for the hero to be the bastard brother she had dismissed, the only brother left to her now (or so she thinks). it's about the little ~invisible thread~ tying them together even when they're unaware of it.

as for the ashford tourney theory, i actually do agree that people put a little too much stock in the last targaryen suitor aspect of it BUT. EYE personally have been on that "it's hinting towards brienne" train literally since I heard it, and you can see that in the posts I've made about it, that I think it's about dunk/brienne interrupting the tourney to save sansa - it's just that part of saving sansa includes bringing her to her dark haired targaryen brother-cousin. especially bc imo valarr does feature heavily enough in the original dunk adventure, with his short scene after Baelor is killed, and how both valarr and jon have a lot of issues surrounding not measuring up to The Perfect Heir (baelor/robb), and being known for being kinda prickly, and the whole Doomed By The Narrative aspect of their characters, and this isn't something that valarr parallels with the other targaryen boy, aegon/young griff. BUT also I just think the whole convo surrounding this theory is annoying tbh alsdjf I think there are three concrete avenues it could go down (jon, aegon, or brienne, or some combo of the three even) and I find it. frustrating that this theory started out as a {redacted} theory that is clearly meant to push A Specific Ship And Reading Of The Text but if you apply the theory to literally anyone else, you get accused of doing just that. like are we not all just pushing A Specific Reading (aka OUR OWN READING) Of The Text here??

But even still I don’t think that the evidence for J*nerys is strong. Like sorry I don’t think Dany being called bride of fire implies she’ll marry Jon I think she already is the bride of fire. I used to hate Jonsa but I realized that I feel very neutral to it. What I hate is the thought of a love triangle with Jon, Dany, and Sansa. The idea of Dany going mad because she loves Jon but Jon loves Sansa is just so tired and boring and sexist.

NO YEAH. it's the same with the "blue rose" thing like.....the blue rose/bael the bard story isn't a happy one? "sweet smelling" is often used in this series as a mask for a deadly, poisonous center. I think "bride of fire" is a callback to catelyn's "wedded to his war" more than anything, that like you say, dany is already the bride of fire, she chose the fire when she burned mmd and walked into the pyre, and i kind of bristle at the idea that her being the bride of fire is tied to whatever man she's fucking. the point is that she is foregoing being the bride of a man for being the bride of fire to me!! and also VALID i don't like the love triangle angle, i don't like love triangles because i think they're usually so lopsided where you're clearly supposed to pick a specific leg of the triangle, and i just HATE the idea that either dany or sansa or jon's stories are heading to a love triangle because it's not particularly compelling to me that they're fighting over the same stupid boy (i can call him stupid, he's my son). especially as you say, the idea that dany might turn on jon because she wants his love and he won't give it - bleh. annoying, tired, been done a million times. this is why i'm also not overly fond of the idea of him being the one to kill her (but i like the idea of him taking the fall for it regardless).

I understand that a lot of the spite towards J*nerys fans is earned because they can be just as spiteful but my first introductions to Jonsa were in the context of this love triangle and the attitude was so spiteful that it put a bad taste in my mouth for years. But even when I did hate it I felt like other J*nerys fans were being hypocritical when they made of Jonsas for their theories. And I got shat on and accused of being a Jonsa myself for saying so. Like it’s eyebrow raising that George revised his Stark family tree to include a marriage between a Jonnel and a Sansa. Regardless of what George originally wrote, Jon beheading Janos is compelling. I do see the vision even it’s not for me. Jon and Dany don’t know each other exist.

i bolded that one line because YES EXACTLY it is very eyebrow raising that he revised the family tree to include that. like WHY. WHAT? imo, if there was a like a Jonos Targaryen who married a Daenerys Targaryen in the targ family tree, EVERYONE would be insisting that's Jonerys proof so I think it's funny when people brush over it. Or like, the fact that it's Jon and Sansa that dream of having children. The fact that it's only Jon and Sansa who are referred to as the blood of Winterfell. There's something here that's being hinted at, and it's compelling! I think I definitely do get being initially turned off because of the ship war - part of my initial, idk, aggressiveness towards dany on the reread was the DEADLY combo of YEARS of watching The ASOIAF{redacted but if you know u know] People dogpile jonsas and sansa stans constantly for literally just writing meta, making theories, like every other goddamn person + growing to just completely hate show!dany and emilia's acting specifically. then as i was rereading i was like oh actually book dany is not only vastly more interesting as a character than show dany's writing or acting could ever be, i also just don't have to let all the targ nation stans completely ruin a character i actually really like.

like this theory specifically by stumpy (which is another post that got dogpiled massively for no goddamn good reason by the asoiaf{redacted} people) about aegon being the sun's son and jon being the mummer's dragon set my brain on fire and made me realize so much of what i hated about dany's character was actually just the wank surrounding her. i'd completely resigned myself to the idea that jonerys was gonna happen for so long and i was so depressed ver it because i thought it was a stupid, shitty ending and i was just going to hate a large part of the ending forever and then i read that and i was like "oh actually maybe there's another option??" like who gives a shit, we're never getting the next books anyway alksjdfl. also FOR THE RECORD i also HATE the idea of a love triangle between those three, and i think i kinda break from a lot of jonsas (tho not all) in that i also don't like the idea of jon killing dany (again, i want it to be arya and for jon to take the fall. if jon is killing anyone, i like the idea of it being drogon much more than dany). like, i don't want any hetero targ fucking here. i think there could be something here in that both dany and jon feel they have to be attracted to each other but in reality are just Not Interested (for a variety of reasons) but i don't actually want them to do the deed at all and I've been firm on that since I was like, 16 lajsflkfd.

I think the only thing that really gives Jnerys leverage is that they loved each other in the show and I’ve always had a hard time believing that George actually gave D&D like two plot points and turned them loose to do literally whatever they could come up with. If the show didn’t exist, you’d be hard pressed to convince me there was a viable chance Jnerys would happen and I really just hate the animosity between Jonsa and J*nerys shippers

WAIT WAIT WAIT THIS IS WHERE SNOWSPEAR COMES IN. I can write more on that, I know i've mentioned it before, but I think that show!Dany got a lot, perhaps even most of Aegon's storyline in the books and that includes a relationship with Jon. I'm not saying they'll straight up fuck on page (george is alas too heterosexual for that) but I do think the vast majority of their story arc in season 7 where Jon is going back and forth with Dany and growing close to her while being wary of her is actually a relationship he'll have with Aegon. I think that makes much more sense thematically and also it doesn't piss me off lmao.

I think in general, they took his plot points and just kinda peppered it throughout the character's actions with no regard for whether it makes sense for that character. Or are just being straight up misleading about what it is they got from him - like their insistence that "hold the door" is from him, for example, I think in actuality here George told them that Hodor will be killed while Bran is warging him and purposefully leaving him behind, and they came up with that dumb ass hold the door -> hodor thing on their own. same for arya killing the night king - EYE think arya tries something against dany, but they gave it jon because they thought it would be more romantic (and they already combined dany and aegon) and went "well arya killing the night king would be sick as fuck, that's basically the same right?" like, i think there's something of what george wrote in there, i just think it's both confusingly folded in and also spread around a lot.

i think i even explained that to my sibling once (who doesn't read the series but does like some of the characters) that I think because they combined so many characters, that they wanted this friction between tyrion and jon, between sansa and dany, but had cut so many story lines and disregarded so many characters, that they just changed up the romance a bit (which we KNOW they do because look what they did to Jeyne W. and the entire Dornish plot).

anyways, yeah the tldr is that ship wars are stupid as shit and it's really hard to not become a hater when a large part of the fandom is constantly discounting your opinion because you ship a thing they don't like, and then claiming YOU are the one egging on the ship war when you are just existing in your goddamn corner. like i don't even use the vs tag half the time specifically because of that shit ya know. i'm not arguing whether my opinion is "right" or not with someone who thinks they're superior and smarter than me just because they think THEIR incest ship is valid but MY incest ship is gross and self projection.