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music-of-dragons · 2 years

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"Contrary to the other answers here, Dany’s not a great ruler. She’s impulsive, inept and, though well-intentioned, has a self-righteous streak a mile wide. It’s not misogynist to point out her actions leave Astapor a hell-scape, that she uses forced labour without pay in Mereen (there’s a word to describe that, it starts with S), and that she is frequently too quick to use violence to solve problems, especially as of the end of Book 5, where she outright decides to say ‘F peace!’ and starts burning shit."

● Wrong. Daenerys has a council made up of both rich and poor whom she always takes into account when making a decision. This is a girl who let a man spit on her in court and merely had him removed from the temple. A boy lunged at her to attack her and again, only had him removed. She plants trees and beans, has irrigation canals built, and she DOES pay her men to work until the gold runs dry, she then pays them with food and shelter. They have a choice, it is not slavery, and her freedmen STILL love her despite the hardship as seen in Tyrion's Winds chapter. They are crying out for her to come back and smash the slavers once again. She trapped herself in an unhappy marriage and locked up her dragons in the name of peace. She learned her lesson from Astapor, that's the entire reason she stays in Meeren, it's not like she kept on doing the same thing after, she refuses, and Astapor haunts her throughout her chapters. Nowhere in book 5 does Dany start burning stuff down because "eff peace" NOWHERE. I read her chapters all the time, that is false.

"Dany had red flags(and she had plenty)? Book! Dany is worse. She has no qualms whatsoever with slaves being rounded up en masse because it’s Drogo doing it with the intent of earning her Westeros. She’s willing to let starving slaves sell themselves back into slavery as long as she gets a cut from the earnings."

● This is just blatantly false. Unlike the show, the reason Drogo's Khalasar attacked the Lhazareen was because ANOTHER KHAL was attacking them first. Drogo surprise attacked him to gain more respect in his Khalasar and steal his victory, as Dothraki Khals do. The moment Dany realized all of the terrible things happening she tried to convince herself to ignore it for all of 30 seconds before putting a stop to it. Her power was dependent on Drogo, she was nothing to the Khalasar without him, so she had to work within his power to protect the women she saved. Also, the slaves of Meereen were not starving, Meereen had freshly fallen and the slaves who wanted to sell themselves back into slavery were "gently born" bed slaves, scribes, and teachers, who saw a better life that way. She freed them to give them choice, she was not going to force them to remain in Meereen knowing that war was coming. Also, it was Missandei, a former slave, who suggested taxing the slavery to deincentivize it and Daenerys put that right back into Meereen's economy. She never pockets any gold, her goal in Meereen is rebuilding.

"She has a wineseller’s daughters tortured before the man’s eyes because someone murdered two of her Unsullied in his wine shop: nothing ever comes out of it. Oh, and she’s doing it because one of her favorite slaves is murdered… on the other side of the city. She’s willing to impress the slaves she supposedly liberated into working for food and water in her public works projects, and somehow not see that literally is slavery."

● Daenerys approved the use of torture *once* in the series because 2 of her Unsullied her killed brutally and there had been many more murders before that with no leads. I don't know about this "favorite slave" you are referring to. Torture falls within the accepted values of society in ASOIAF; Crow cages for villages (Catelyn wanted Theon in one), Ice Cells for the Night's Watch (also Qhorin Halfhand tortured a wildling to death), Sky Cells and an abusive inkeep for The Vale, the Black Cells and torturers for King's Landing, I could go on. Stannis tortures Theon and lets people be burned alive, The Manderlys have a torturer named Garth, the Faith utilize torture for information, even King Jaehaerys the Conciliator used torture to get information. And above all of what I just listed, Daenerys is the first and only leader in the books to openly condemn and ban the use of torture afterward. She recognizes that it is useless and cruel. Again, she paid the freedmen wages until she was besieged and the gold ran out, she pays them with what she has. She DOES NOT force anyone to work, you're using the exact argument that Xaro, an unrepentant slaver who compared slavery to rain, tried to use to convince Dany to allow slavery again. I think you're missing the point. Her freedmen still love her and want her to rule despite the hardship, NO ONE is calling Dany a slaver in the books, not even the people who hate her. They all hate her because she is a liberator.

"Hell, her whole ‘kill a city of innocents’ schtick? She’s already done that in the books.

When ordering her brand new Unsullied to sack Astapor, she ordered them:

“Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.”

A tokar is a clothing that in Astapor is uniquely worn only by the freeborn. You claim show! Daenerys went batshit: her book counterpart effectively ordered an army to kill every man in a city that wasn’t a slave or wasn’t dirt poor or a hard laborer, irrespective of whether they actually owned slaves, including children above the age of twelve, and those under that age unlucky enough to look a bit old for their age."

● A tokar can ONLY be worn by slavers. Know why? Because it takes your hands to hold it in place. Only people who do not use their hands because they have slaves to do everything for them can wear it. It is the symbol of a slaver. Also, "harm no child under 12" DOES NOT mean "kill everyone over 12". In her society, a boy is considered a man at 14, they begin training with sword and shield long before that. The youngest commander of the Night's Watch was 10 years old, the same age Barristan Selmy was when he entered his first tourney. Doubtless, young boys would try to fight the Unsullied, but she didn't want them harmed so she gave a rough age of accountability on the spot. The Unsullied do not fill in gaps in orders, which is the exact reason Jorah urged her to buy them, they will only do what is explicitly ordered. I feel like people intentionally misread this to villainize Dany even though the entire reason she wanted to free the Unsullied was to save children from torture. She is constantly contemplating her want and love for children, you have to think about these scenes in the context of her character. Dany would never want children to be slaughtered. However, I think the most important thing to acknowledge when it comes to Astapor was that Dany learned her lesson and decided to take the next city without laying a hand on them, then stayed to rule in Meereen to stabilize it.

There is no meticulously built up madness arc, at all. The point of George's key 5 are that they are the underdogs of society who defy the expectations of their world at every turn, and even though some are hated, they will be the ones to rise up and save the world from the Long Night. George is not pessimistic, he's not centrist, and he certainly believes in righteous war and violence. At its heart, ASOIAF is still a fantasy series, George just doesn't brush over the hardships and ugly truths like most fantasy novels do. Most of your evidence is easily disproven by the text, I'll whip out book quotes if you want me to.

And then they didn't respond 🤷🏻‍♀️

#daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #dany #book!daenerys #book!dany #pro dany #pro daenerys

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asongofstarkandtargaryen · 2 years

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Jon Snow Month: Favourite Chapter (2/3)

Second part of my Jon’s favourite chapters is here! In case anyone is interested to read the first part here you go.

A DANCE WITH DRAGONS JON XII (aka the one he accepts Wildings on the Wall and shows leadership skills)

The chapter begins with Jon having a nightmare related to wildings he´s about to permit to pass the Wall. We must all remember that it wasn´t that long ago that battle of the Castle Black happened and some wounds haven´t healed yet. Even for Jon who is the one who invited the Wildings this time -because the Night’s Watch will need as many fighters as they can get- and who also have lived among the Free folk and knows they are just regular humans. Still, some prejudices against them run that deep and for so many generations - remember; the Night’s Watch considers them the number one human foe-. Not even Jon cannot be affected by these things and thus why Wildings appeal to haunt his dreams:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums.

[...] Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow, " an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled ..

As you can see the nightmare ended with the most horrific way: Jon didn’t only killed enemies but also the girl he loved, brothers in arms and in the end even his own brother. His sense of guilt even for things he couldn’t control is obvious here. It’s a recurring theme of Jon to feel guilty for things he’s not responsible of (you can say that this started from a very young age when his step mother constantly shamed him for being a bastard) and it always comes up in times of high stress.

Something that I also find interesting about this dream is the mention of Jon wearing a black ice armor and fighting with a flaming sword. Sure, it’s part of his fevered dream but it could also be a foreshadowing of him being the Azor Ahai.

A good leader isn’t someone who never doubts his decisions or shows no fear in tough situations. A good leader is someone who despite being afraid and/or doubting himself still sticks to the plan he considers the best for his people. And that’s exactly what Jon does in the next day.

It’s crucial for the alliance between Wildings and Black Brothers to work that everyone will behave that day. And while Jon has no authority on Wildings -yet!- he’s the Lord Commander so he makes sure that his men will be obedient:

"Remember," Jon said,

"Tormund's people are hungry, cold, and fearful. Some of them hate us as much as some of you hate them. We are dancing on rotten ice here, them and us. One crack, and we all drown. If blood should be shed today, it had best not be one of us who strikes the first blow, or I swear by the old gods and the new that I will have the head of the man who strikes it."

They answered him with ayes and nods and muttered words, with

"As you command," and "It will be done," and "Yes, my lord."

Jon continues to make a series of clever decisions this particular day. Despite not liking having guards around him, when he goes to meet Tormund he takes eight brothers in their prime to go with him, as a Lord who wants to aspire respect would do. Also, knowing that the Wildings respect strength and that in terms of appearence he leaves a lot to be desired (not a dig against Jon, he’s only a seventeen years old teenager hardly looking fearsome for Free Folk who has survived much worse) he also calls Ghost by his side which adds to his overall presence.

Furthermore, he takes one hundred wilding young boys as hostages in order to secure that the rest of the Wildings will behave. It’s during the hostage reception that Jon shows insight on the Night Watch matters. When he realizes that there are two girls dressed as boys among the hostages he refuses to accept them and demands two actual boys to take their place. That’s because he know his black brothers’ weaknesses , some of them are criminals and even rapists. He won’t let two little girls around them.It’s not political wise (because hostages shouldn’t be harmed) and more importantly his morals and his kindness towards the weaker wouldn’t allow him to let little girls face the possibility of being sexually harassed.

Another trait a good leader should possess is not being arrogant, believing he knows everything. And Jon’s mantra is quite the opposite; as he recalls his lover,Ygritte, telling him that he knows nothing he admits that this still applies to that day. Despite taking drastic measures to save both Westerosi and the Free Folk from the real danger the Others (and he’s the only one in position of power who does so) he’s humble enough when it comes to his leadership to believe he has still a lot to learn.

An intersting note is that the Wildings don’t swear an oath to be loyal to the Night Watch but to Jon Snow specifically. Having read the end of the book where men of the Night Watch betray their Commander, Jon might soon need an army and he already have one in the Wildings.

Closing this meta, I’d like to offer two passages where it shows that Jon managed to do what no other Lord Commander did before him; to unite the Westerosi and the Free Folk (perhaps temporary but that remains to be seen):

Ahoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. One long blast. For a thousand years or more, that sound had meant rangers coming home. Today it meant something else. Today it called the free folk to their new homes. [...]

The castle Jon returned to was far different from the one he'd left that morning. For as long as he had known it, Castle Black had been a place of silence and shadows, where a meagre company of men in black moved like ghosts amongst the ruins of a fortress that had once housed ten times their numbers. All that had changed. Lights now shone through windows where Jon Snow had never seen lights shine before. Strange voices echoed down the yards, and free folk were coming and going along icy paths that had only known the black boots of crows for years.[...]

#jon snow #jonsnowmonth2022 #jon snow meta #asoiaf meta #free folk #wildings #night's watch #mymeta

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multi-fandom-imagines8 · 5 years

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Guardian Angel

Part 5

Summary: You meet the King Beyond the Wall and Tormund Giantsbane. Ygritte wants Jon to prove to her that he’s not a crow anymore. Finally, you climb the wall but something unexpected happens.

Guardian Angel Series

Taglist

Word Count: 2044.

“I smell a crow” Tormund said as you, Jon, Ygritte and the lord of bones entered the tent.

“We killed his friends. Thought you'd want to question this one” the lord of bones informed him.

“What do we want with a baby crow?” Tormund asked.

“This baby killed Qhorin Halfhand. He wants to be one of us” Ygirtte told him.

“That half-handed cunt killed friends of mine. Friends twice your size”.

“My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones if you put a sword through their hearts” Jon remembered.

“Plenty of little men tried to put their swords through my heart. And there's plenty of little skeletons buried in the woods”. You chuckled and Tormund gave you a weird look “you find this funny?” He asked in a serious tone.

“Kind of. I happen to find you funny” you winked at him.

“Where did you find this one? I like her” he asked Ygritte.

“She’s with him, but she’s much like us”.

“What's your name, boy?” He turned to face Jon.

“Jon Snow. Your Grace” Jon knelt before him, mistaking him for Mance.

The Wildlings started to laugh and Jon was confused.

“Oh! Get up, that’s not Mance. This is Tormund” you muttered.

“Your Grace? Did you hear that? From now on, you'd better kneel every time I fart” Tormund joked.

“Stand, boy. We don't kneel for anyone beyond the Wall” Mance appeared.

“And you couldn’t tell me about that earlier?” Jon whispered.

“sorry!”.

“So, you're Ned Stark's bastard. Thank you for the gift, Lord of Bones. You can leave us”.

He and Ygritte left both of you there.

“The girl likes you. You like her back, Snow? That why you want to join us?” Mance questioned.

“Don't panic, boy. This isn't the damned Night's Watch where we make you swear off girls” Tormund added.

“This chicken eater you thought was king is Tormund Giantsbane” Mance introduced.

“It’s nice to meet you and all, but if you’re going to question him, can I leave?” You interrupted.

“You sound fierce, my lady” Mance wanted to show some respect.

“There’s no need to call me lady. We’re beyond the wall, now. Besides, I’m no lady. You can call me Y/n” you introduced.

“It is true what Ygritte said about you” Tormund grinned.

“so can I leave now? It’s not like I’m going to escape or something. Wherever Jon goes, I go so…”.

“Alright, you may leave. But Tormund will keep an eye on you”.

“Is that how southern girls are like?” Tormund asked not taking his eyes off you.

“No. They are nothing like me. And I’m not a southerner. I come from a place called Y/h/t”.

“Never heard of it. Where is it?”.

“No one ever had. It’s far far away from here. C- could you please stop staring at me?”.

“Why?” He looked confused.

“It’s cree- never mind. Stare all you want. After all, you’re Tormund Giantsbane”.

“That’s right… how do you know my name? Mance only introduced me as Tormund”.

“Oh… I kinda- I have some sort of a gift. I can see glimpses of people’s past and future”.

“How is that?”.

“Like a warg but not exactly. I know you have one here, but I forgot his name. I also don’t know about his past but I know how he’s going to die”.

“What about me? How will I die?”.

“I don’t know. But I know that you and Jon will become friends and I know that you’re a funny, kind man”.

“You think I’m kind?”.

“Yeah, I do. I like you. I believe we’ll become friends as well” you smiled at him.

“We can be more” he smirked.

“Oh! No, I didn’t mean it like that. I- wouldn’t be able to love you like that”.

“Because your heart belongs to another man?”.

“Uhm, something like that, yeah”.

“Yeah?”.

“It means Aye or yes”.

“I see. But how did you manage to keep your relationship a secret?”.

“What?”.

“You and Snow? From the crows?”.

“Oh, no, no! You misunderstood me. We’re not together”.

“But you love him”.

“I never said that”.

“You didn’t have to. Your eyes did. I saw the way you looked at him”.

“It’s complicated”.

“No it isn’t. You like him, he likes you. You confess and be together”.

“I’m sure he doesn’t like me like that”.

“How would you know? Did he tell you that?”.

“No, but-“.

“You’ll never know if you don’t try”.

—-

“I see you and Mance are becoming friends” you approached Jon after he finished talking to Mance while you walked through a winter storm.

“Y/n, are you a wildling? Please be honest with me?” He was serious.

“What? No! Why would you think that?”.

”You seem to get along with all of them. Everyone likes you. Your ways are a lot like theirs” he elaborated.

“I promise you, I am not. But I’m also not a northerner or a southerner. Which is why I’m different that the people you know. I will never betray you or lie to you, Jon. I swear it on my life”.

“Alright. I believe you... I’m still a crow” he confessed.

“I know and when you leave, I’ll leave with you”.

Jon finally met Orell and understood what you meant by warg.

You encountered dead horses on you way. It was the Night King’s doing, but there were no human bodies, only their horses. They were sorted to make a special symbol that represented him.

“Do you think anyone got away?” Jon asked.

“It's not impossible. You don't go far betting against Mormont. But dead or alive, he took a big gamble coming north. And he lost. His best fighting men are dead. And whether he's Lord Commander of the Night's Watch or a blue-eyed corpse, he's a long way from home. Tormund. Climb the Wall. Take Orell and 20 good men. And take this one. He knows Castle Black's defenses better than any of us. And if he's useful, good. If not throw him off the Wall. See if crows can fly” Mance commanded.

—-

You and Ygritte were gathering some wood to light a fire, while Tormund, Orell and Jon were discussing the best place to climb the wall.

“How did a brave woman like you end up south?” Ygritte questioned.

“You mean Castle Black?”.

“Aye”.

“I believe I was north of the wall and I saw one of the white walkers and then I fled. I don’t remember how I got there, and I don’t know how I came to Westeros”.

“Is that how you met Jon Snow?”.

“Yes. He was mean to me at first, but with time he became the Jon I know. Everyone thought I was a Wildling when I arrived. Maybe I am, at heart”.

“I believe so too. How long have you been in love with him?”.

“I’m not in love with him” you giggled.

“I see the way you look at him. Everyone knows, except probably him”.

“That obvious, huh?” You clicked your tongue.

“It is. Aren’t you going to tell him?”.

“No”.

“Why not?”.

“Because I don’t want to ruin your chances with him”.

“What?”.

“I know you like him too. You’re not the only one with eyes”.

“And you’d do that for me, why? It’s not like we’re friends”.

“No, but I’d like us to be. And I’m not doing this for you. It’s for Jon. He deserves to be happy, for the hard days ahead of us”.

“So you don’t mind if I had him?”.

“No, go on! Have fun!”.

“You can always join us, you know”.

“Oh, no, no! I’m not the sharing type. I may look like a Wildling, but I’m not completely one” you reminded.

“How many men remain in Castle Black?” Tormund asked.

“1,000”.

“Liar” Orell was suspicious of Jon.

“What happens to your eagle after I kill you? Does he drift away like a kite with his strings cut or does he just flop dead to the ground?” Jon warned.

“He's no crow” Ygritte defended.

“Just 'cause you want him inside you don't make him one of us”.

“I like you, boy. But if you lie to me, I'll pull your guts out through your throat”.

“1000 men” Jon repeated.

Jon and Ygritte were walking, quick and agitated, through the camp.

“I don't need you to protect me” he finally told her.

“Of course you do. Who stopped Rattleshirt when he was about to cut your throat? Who vouched for you with Mance? It seems you owe me a debt” she took his sword and ran away and Jon chased after her until they reached the cave.

—-

Jon was strapping the cleats onto his boots that Ygritte gave him when you sat next to him, grinning.

“What?” He got annoyed by the never ending grin of yours.

“Nothing… did you have fun with Ygritte?”.

“Am I not allowed to talk to girls now or what?”.

“That’s not what I’m talking about” you twirled your tongue.

“Oh, seven hells! You saw that too?” He sighed.

“I did. I’m glad you’re happy. It’s nice seeing you not brooding”.

Tormund approached you and handed the both of you a climbing axe “ Sink your metal deep and make sure it holds before taking your next step. And if you fall, don't scream. You don't want that to be the last thing she remembers” he advised Jon.

“Have you done it before?” He asked you.

“No. It’s the first time I’ll be climbing anything”.

“Are you scared?”.

“Just a bit, but YOLO”.

“What?”.

“Oh, it’s a saying from where I come from. It means you only live once” you elaborated.

“Aah, yolo indeed” he repeated and you laughed “did I say it wrong?”.

“No, no! I just never imagined I’d be hearing you say it. It’s a bit weird”.

Now it was time to climb the wall. Tormund went first, Orell followed. Then Ygritte and Jon and you decided to climb after Jon, knowing what is going to happen next “here goes nothing” you took a deep breath and climbed.

As the weather worsened the more high up you are, a great crack in the wall opened, making a huge swath of the ice fall. Tormund and Orell dug their axes deep into the wall and as the rest of you were about to do so, the ice fell on you and left you dangling helplessly. Now the only thing that kept you from falling was the rope that Orell was trying to cut. Jon was swinging back and forth trying to reach solid ice, but to no use.

“Come on, you can do it! It worked before, why isn’t it working now?” You muttered to yourself.

After a few tries, you couldn’t just wait around and do nothing. You started swinging back and forth like him until you finally managed to plant your axe in solid ice.

At the same moment, Orell cut through the rope and Both Jon and Ygritte plummeted. Their fall is halted when the rope is caught by you. You tried your best to hold it, but you weren’t strong enough. It took all of your energy.

“Hurry! I can’t hold it any longer” you shouted and Jon hacked his axe into the wall. As soon as he did that you let go of the rope.

“Come on! Take my hand” you pulled him up and he pulled Ygritte up.

“I don’t think I can climb anymore” you stated.

“It’s not too high anymore. You can make it” Jon informed you.

“I can’t. I used all the energy I had left to hold the rope” the truth is you were scared of climbing again, afraid that you might fall this time.

“Y/n, listen to me! You’re going to dig your axe into the wall and you’re going to climb it. I know you’re scared but so am I. If we don’t do this, we’re going to die. Tormund is up there and he’s going to pull you up when you get to the top and I’ll be right behind you. Nothing is going to happen to you” he tried to assure you.

“Alright. Just don’t let me fall”.

“I promise”.

Tags: @irishfaulk97 @simonsbluee @lesbianismybitchname @bluerorjhan @disneyprincessbuffyannesummers @catlady15xx @marvel-addict-95 @longmaythestarksreign @capsheadquaters @bucky-blogs

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bellamyblinkingrapidly · 5 years

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Jon Snow Lies By Telling the Truth

How do I know this?

Let’s examine his first encounter with a “foreign” king, the King-Beyond-the-Wall, in which he has to convince Mance that he wants to join them. It’s critical to understand that in this circumstance Jon Snow MUST lie in order to:

Survive the encounter

Honor his fallen brothers/Make sure his brothers including Qhorin Halfhand died for something

Serve the Night’s Watch (as a spy infiltrating the free folk’s encampment and learning their plans)

When Jon Snow first enters, he believes Tormund to be Mance, and he kneels before him. Jon quickly learns that this isn’t the wildling way; the others laugh at him.

Mance explains, “We don’t kneel...”

Jon Snow also gets some level of respect simply by being Ned Stark’s bastard, presumably because he is a descendant of the First Men like the freefolk.

Next Mance notes that Ygritte likes Jon, and he asks Jon if he likes her back. Jon doesn’t answer and avoids eye contact; he’s still sizing up the situation but I think it’s important to note that this Jon isn’t comfortable revealing his feelings for Ygritte whether they are positive or negative. He likely understands that not having feelings for her would indicate he is keeping his vows to the Night’s Watch, and that having feelings for her would be leading down a path to break them - which is something he desperately wants to avoid even though he is going undercover. Also, having feelings for her might give him some extra leverage to convince the freefolk he wants to be there, so he doesn’t want to give this card away; Jon is also still an awkward teenage boy who is probably a little embarrassed by his encounters with Ygritte.

Jon is still uncomfortable in his role as a spy; he’s not comfortable outright lying as an easy option might be to play the role of the fool in love who wants to desert the Night’s Watch to be with a woman, and he’s still not sure how to play this game while keeping his allegiances to the Night’s Watch intact as much as he can, i.e. not losing himself.

“He was our enemy and I’m glad he’s dead,” Mance says.

Jon gains trust from the freefolk because he killed their enemy, Qhorin Halfhand. Mance even shakes his hand. Jon doesn’t offer up any additional information about why he killed Qhorin, but when Mance asks him about why he was with Qhorin, Jon answers honestly. He says that the Lord Commander was grooming him for leadership.

“If I’m a traitor then you are too,” Jon retorts back at Mance after Mance points out his betrayal of the Night’s Watch.

Jon holds his ground, and it’s a pretty ballsy move. The room becomes tenser. This is a bit of risky candor from Jon, and it actually ends up working in his favor.

“Why do you want to join us, Jon Snow?” Mance asks him simply.

“I want to be free,” Jon tries to lie.

This lie he picks up from verbage used by other wildlings, specifically Ygritte. He thinks this is what Mance wants to hear. But Mance is smarter than that, and it’s a bad lie because it’s not based in any truth.

Easily Mance spots the lie, “No. I think what you want most of all is to be a hero. I’ll ask you one last time: why do you want to join us?”

Mance is insinuating that Jon is here to be a hero for the Night’s Watch - either by killing Mance or being a spy for them. This is in fact true, he’s onto him. The room tenses. This is Jon’s last chance.

So he tells the truth, but in a way that’s a lie:

Jon: “We stopped at Craster’s Keep on the way North. I saw...”

Mance: “You saw what?”

Jon: “I saw Craster take his own baby boy and leave it in the woods. I saw what took it.”

Mance: “You’re telling me you saw one of them? And why would that make you desert your brothers?”

Jon: “Because when I told the Lord Commander he already knew. Thousands of years ago the First Men battled the White Walkers and defeated them. I want to fight for the side that fights for the living. Did I come to the right place?”

Mance: “We’ll need to find you a new cloak.”

Jon looks down and away.

Jon doesn’t want to join the freefolk, not really. If he was being honest, he wants to join them to help his brothers of the Night’s Watch, to make amends for those he killed by not being able to kill Ygritte, and ultimately maybe to protect people from the White Walkers by ensuring the wildlings don’t defeat the Night’s Watch.

He doesn’t offer the whole truth, but he does offer some of it. He really did see Craster do that and he really did see a White Walker. Those things shook him up, and when he told the Lord Commander he already knew about it. Jon is drawing on the only time he’s had real doubts about the Night’s Watch and his commander - the only time he’s been genuinely afraid most likely.

Then Jon does something even more politician-y. He references alliances made in the past (something other politicians do when trying to gain allies in the show - Tyrion, Dany, the Starks, the Lannisters, etc.). Jon also takes note of how they treat him special because he’s Ned Stark’s son who is descended from the First Men. So what does he do? He brings up his connection to the First Men, and in fact doesn’t make a distinction between the wildlings and himself when he refers to the First Men here.

The best true lie is “I want to fight for the side that fights for the living.” Because this is 100% true, and the thing that Jon isn’t saying is that he believes that side is the Night’s Watch. He believes it’s the duty of the Night’s Watch to fight for the living, and if he has any say in what the Night’s Watch does, he will work for this to be their mission. But Mance takes it as appraisal of his mission and a discontentment with the Night’s Watch and its leaders.

“Did I come to the right place?” is another ballsy move on Jon’s part. But his candor and fierceness has seemed to won him favor so far with Mance and the freefolk in the tent. He also likely noticed how freely, aggressively, and honestly the freefolk he’s been around speak their minds; Ygritte is a great example of that. But also, this is just Jon being Jon when we right down to it. He can’t keep his damn mouth shut as seen in his scenes getting chewed out by the Lord Commander.

The most important part about this true lie is that Jon plays into what Mance believes about him. Mance believes Jon wants to play the hero. He also probably thinks of Jon as a kid who just took his vows but doesn’t know what they mean, a son of Ned Stark, and a kid being groomed for Lord Commander. So Jon tells him a reason to join the freefolk that aligns with these beliefs. Wanting to defeat the evil White Walkers and save the living is a very heroic reason to join the freefolk and abandon his brothers. This reason also has some notes of honorableness and leadership to it as well as the foolishness and naivety of a kid.

Who knows ultimately how much of this was intentional vs. unintentional on Jon’s part, but we do know in the books he’s described as very observant.

I believe this encounter demonstrates his ability to lie by telling the truth, and that he already has employed similar tactics in season seven in his encounter with a different foreign ruler, Queen Daenerys, and that this will be revealed to us in season eight. I won’t go into detail of his encounters with Daenerys and where he could be lying in this post; however, he is under similar circumstances with her as this one. Jon believes that he must persuade Dany to ally with the North against the Night King in order to...

Survive (not be burned alive or killed in the Great War by default)

Leave Dragonstone (be released as a prisoner and able to help fight the Night King)

Protect his people and all the living/Save his home & family/Honor his role as King in the North and therefore Protector of the North

Defeat the Night King

Make all other sacrifices for the North & Winterfell worth it/Honor those who fought before & ensure there will be something left after

Honor his own code of honor/the Night’s Watch mentality of being the shield that guards the realms of men

Edit: Also, it isn’t revealed to us immediately that Jon is lying. We don’t know exactly where Jon’s allegiances lie at this point in time, although we have more clues than we do in S7. D&D in the interviews after the episode talk about how Jon and Mance find commonground and see something in each other, etc., etc. But Jon still betrays Mance and Ygritte and the freefolk to keep his vows to the Night’s Watch in the end.

#political!jonsnow #political!jon #gots3 #gots7 #mance rayder #the wildlings #the freefolk #jon snow is a liar #jon snow the politician #jon snow bends the knee #i want to fight for the side that fights for the living #jon snow the spy #jon snow

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maddie-grove · 7 years

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The Stark Romance Saga--Book #3: A Fire in Winter

Previous Installments: Loved I Not Honor More (Book #1, Robb Stark/Jeyne Westerling), The Iron Scoundrel (Book #2, Theon Greyjoy/Asha “Not His Sister in This Universe” Harlaw), and Kissing the Kingslayer (Book #2.5, Catelyn Stark/Jaime Lannister).

The Style

Sweeping old-school Susannah Leigh or Jennifer Wilde, but less offensive.

The Leads

Jon Snow, 20 years old, rising star in the Night’s Watch and (HE THOUGHT!) Lord Ned Stark’s illegitimate son. Tries very hard to be good and never admit to himself that he wants anything that the Night’s Watch can’t give him. Secretly full of hurt feelings and pent-up sexual energy, but he’s hoping to wear himself out with fighting, ranging, and Wall-maintenance for the rest of his life so he’ll never have to deal with it. Has a bad-ass albino wolf-dog, Ghost.

Ygritte, 23 years old, a wildling spearwife who longs for unity among the Free Folk and an end to the Others. Fiercely proud and righteously angry with the “kneelers” who have trapped her and her people beyond the Wall. Otherwise has a friendly and mischievous nature. Fond of archery, music, and pretty lads. Quietly grieving for family and clan members lost to the Others. Will never admit that her loss and displacement has made her feel lonely.

The Prologue

The confrontation between Jon and Catelyn at Bran’s bedside, largely unchanged. Jon, half-determined to prove himself in the Night’s Watch and half-resentful that all the adults responsible for him agreed so swiftly that he should join, visits his comatose half-brother despite his reluctance to anger Catelyn. He says goodbye to Bran and tries to offer sympathy to Catelyn, only to be harshly rebuffed. (Catelyn probably just snaps at him to get out, as in the show, rather than offer up the book’s crueler, more deliberate “it should have been you.”) He also reflects on how much he’s going to miss his dad and siblings.

The Set-Up

Not that different from canon, except for the part where she dies. Jon, marginally wiser and older, is on a dangerous mission in the Skirling Pass with Qhorin Halfhand, grizzled old Night’s Watch veteran. Jon reflects a bit about how he came to this literal and metaphorical pass (basically, he learned not to be a thoughtless dick to his smallfolk peers, plus it turns out White Walkers are real). Then Ygritte and her raiding party descend upon Jon and Qhorin. Jon manages to capture her, but they have a Moment and he lets her go instead of killing her. Later, he and Qhorin are surrounded by the Free Folk (including Ygritte, who personally captures him right back). As per the mission, Jon kills Qhorin and pretends to join the Free Folk. Despite their differences and the complicated situation, Jon and Ygritte find themselves liking each other. They’re sleeping under the same furs at night, and one thing leads to another. (The consent issues in the book might still fly in a romance novel today, but I found it unnecessarily unpleasant and complicated even in ASOIAF; didn’t Jon have enough painful issues around sex with the bastard stigma?) They keep on doing it, and the cave scene happens verbatim.

Then comes the raid on the Gift, where the wildlings attack an old man and Jon, horrified, comes to his defense. Having blown his cover, he rides back to the wall, full of arrows and regret. Ygritte consequently realizes that Jon turned his cloak on her and vows to hate him forever.

And that’s when things get weird.

The Middle

After making it back to the Wall and recovering from his injuries, Jon finds himself in another pickle: some of the senior members of the Night’s Watch want him executed for killing Qhorin and doin’ it with a wildling. Despite Maester Aemon’s arguments on his behalf, things aren’t looking too good for Jon...until he’s kidnapped and thrown on a ship in the dead of night by some mysterious Essosi dudes who turn out to be Unsullied. One of the Unsullied (a Common-Tongue-speaking fellow who named himself Drogon the Human after one of the instruments of his freedom) eventually explains that Jon is secretly the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. It turns out that Daenerys Targaryen left Slaver’s Bay in the hands of the former slaves (who are doing quite nicely, as they had a plan in place that only needed some judicious use of dragons to work) and sailed to her birthplace of Dragonstone, where her people discovered Rhaegar’s secret diary (sample passage: “I’m going to use dishonest means to get fifteen-year-old Lyanna Stark to run away and have PROPHECY BABIES with me!”). Now Daenerys wants an alliance between her forces and the North...and how better to do that than to marry the half-Northern, half-Targaryen Jon Snow?

Jon’s not so sure. He’s going through a crisis, feeling undermined in his Northern identity and family relationships but definitely not feeling like a Targaryen either. He’s doubts that his illegitimate Targaryen half brings anything to the table politically, partly because he doesn’t share Daenerys’s view that Westeros wants a Targaryen restoration. Finally, although Daenerys is lovely and charming and kind and brave, he can’t feel anything romantic for her...and it’s not just because she’s his aunt, which is kind of weird. No, he also misses Ygritte, and it kills him that he’ll never see her again. After Daenerys guarantees that she’ll help all his family members and the smallfolk and the wildlings, though, he knows marriage is the best choice. Because nothing will get them good PR like marrying in the Sept of Baelor, they agree to postpone the wedding until after they take King’s Landing.

Meanwhile, Ygritte has been having a rough time. After surviving the Battle of the Ice, she and a small band of Free Folk try to eke out a living north of the Wall while planning their next move. (Without Jon’s leadership, the Free Folk never have the option to go south.) Her group is attacked by White Walkers and becomes even smaller. Heartbroken and lonelier than ever, Ygritte is at a loss...until she realizes that she’s pregnant. At first she feels happy, then pissed off about being happy, then worried how she’s going to raise a child in this frozen horror show. At last, she swallows her pride and resolves to go see Jon at the Wall. Obviously he doesn’t love her, but she figures he’ll feel obligated to help her, the baby, and maybe even the Free Folk as a whole. Unfortunately, when she sneaks into Castle Black, she finds out that Jon mysteriously disappeared right before he was supposed to be executed. “Oh, fuck, no,” she says, but she’s not sure what to do other than go to Winterfell and inform his family that some bullshit is happening.

During Ygritte’s journey to Winterfell, Daenerys and her army successfully take King’s Landing. I won’t go into details, but the victory is just difficult enough to keep the battle from being anticlimactic. It happens just after Tyrion’s escape from King’s Landing, so the only remaining Lannisters are Cersei, Tommen, and Kevan. (Jaime is, at Catelyn’s secret request, in the Riverlands searchng for Arya.) Kevan dies in battle; Cersei and Tommen disappear mysteriously. The Tyrells and most of the other families shrug and side with Daenerys fairly quickly, because she has dragons. The smallfolk are like, “Huh, well, maybe she won’t be a volatile sadist like Joffrey; after all, most of the Targaryens weren’t like Aerys.” Their doubts are further assuaged when Daenerys’s policies turn out to be relatively egalitarian. Jon is happily reunited with Sansa (more about her later), even though they weren’t super-close as children, but is heartbroken to find no sign of Arya. He and Daenerys begin to make wedding plans.

Ygritte gets to Winterfell and is greeted by sympathetic new mom Jeyne Westerling and a moody, troubled Bran. (Robb and Catelyn are fighting in the Riverlands again; Rickon’s actually doing swell for once.) They’re both happy to offer a home to their unborn niece/nephew and its mother; Bran even takes her reports of the White Walkers seriously and starts to confer with the other bannermen as the Stark in Winterfell. Yet Ygritte isn’t anywhere near happy. Seeing Jon’s home has made her see how different their worlds are, plus she’s angry and hurt that he was off marrying his aunt while she thought he was dead. She’s about to head back north when Bran and Jeyne persuade her that Jon would never truly want to marry his aunt and sometimes you just to risk everything for love, respectively. Ygritte realizes they’re right and rides hell-for-leather to King’s Landing.

The Conclusion

The wedding’s about to happen. Sansa, initially enchanted by her secretly royal half-brother’s imminent marriage to a beautiful young queen, senses that all is not well and asks Jon if he really wants to go through with it. He says no, but he has to go through with it because it’s his duty and he’ll lose what little honor he has if he backs out. Sansa realizes that his motives are all wrapped up in bastard stigma and talks about how she used to think that everyone, including herself, would be okay if they just did what society told them to do, but then she discovered that the world was wrong. Her speech affects Jon, but not enough for him to call off the wedding so late...until Ygritte appears on the steps of the Sept of Baelor, out of breath and vocally angry with him for leaving her behind.

“I’m sorry,” he tells Daenerys, who nods in a gracious and dignified manner. She’s secretly relieved that she doesn’t have to make a third political marriage and can just concentrate on ruling for a while (plus banging Daario Naharis on the sly).

Then Jon tells Ygritte everything he’s learned: he thought he was wrong to love her and break his vows, but instead he was wrong to leave her. He never dared to hope she would want him back, but if she’s come all this way, maybe she would be willing to marry him?

“You’re only saying that because I’m pregnant!” Ygritte shouts. Then she goes on for a little while about his precious duty and precious honor.

“You’re pregnant?!” Jon finally interrupts.

“Wait, what?” says Ygritte. But she’s convinced, finally, that he meant what he said. Otherwise, why would he give up marrying Daenerys in such a publicly embarassing way?

Daenerys gives a hastily improvised speech about how Jon and Ygritte’s marriage symbolizes unity between all different types of people in Westeros. The crowd is like, “huh,” but the wine is flowing pretty freely and it’s something to talk about.

Jon and Ygritte head north the next day, Sansa in tow, and are joyously reunited with Bran, Rickon, Jeyne, Robb, and the rest of the Winterfell household. (Theon and Asha send them a pineapple from the Summer Islands for the wedding, but it’s probably called something stupid like a spineapple.) In private, Catelyn stiffly thanks Jon for bringing back Sansa and apologizes for being unkind to him as a child; it doesn’t really change the past, but he can appreciate it for what it is. Jon and Ygritte are married in the Godswood. Afterwards, there’s a feast. It’s not entirely a happy occasion, though, because they all feel the absence of Arya deeply. A place is set for her at the table, though, in hopes that one day she’ll come home.

The Epilogue

Jon and Ygritte are living together at the Wall. Reforms have been made to the Night’s Watch, partly thanks to Daenerys’s unconventional views and partly thanks to the North’s commitment to fighting the White Walkers. Members can now enlist for ten-year shifts, not just for life; women can join; and, perhaps most pertinently, members can marry!!! So Jon goes down on Ygritte and it’s 100% legit.

Subplots

Sansa goes through most of her A Storm of Swords plot. Now released from her betrothal with Joffrey, she thinks she’s found allies in the Tyrells; however, her planned escape via marriage to Willas Tyrell is scotched when she and Tyrion Lannister are forced to marry by Tywin. Under the circumstances, she cannot love him, yet she appreciates his decency towards her and feels sorry for him because his family is cruel to him. When Joffrey dies, she and Tyrion are both arrested, leaving her to wonder whether he left her to share the blame for the crime; she feels betrayed, somehow, by the possibility. (Littlefinger tried to get her out, but there was a hitch in the plan, so he shrugged and sailed to the Vale without her.) She’s overjoyed to be returned to her family, yet she feels like she doesn’t quite fit with them after her experiences.

“Arry,” still suffering from amnesia and now calling herself “Nan” (short for Nymeria), has escaped from Harrenhal with her friends Gendry and Hot Pie. They join up with the Brotherhood without Banners, where she finds some small measure of peace. However, she’s still massively traumatized and troubled by her lack of identity. It becomes less painful, eventually, to stop wondering who she was and move on with her life. (Let’s assume that Beric Dondarrion et al never got a good enough look at her in King’s Landing to identify her.) At one point, Sandor Clegane tries to kidnap her, insisting that she’s Arya Stark, but she thinks he has worse intentions than ransoming her and manages to run back to the Brotherhood.

Bran, also traumatized by the events of The Iron Scoundrel, continues to have troubling psychic visions. Taking action against the White Walkers as the Stark in Winterfell helps, but he still struggles with feelings of helplessness and isolation. Also, he knows his mom is secretly in love with Jaime Lannister and understandably thinks that’s really fucked up.

Sam and Gilly fall in love as they journey from Craster’s Keep to the Nightfort and then try to deal with all the crazy shit happening at Castle Black. They get married once the Night’s Watch reforms take place (perhaps in the epilogue?) in a subsequent novella.

#the stark romance saga #asoiaf #asoiaf au #jon snow #ygritte

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sheikah · 7 years

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Jon needing to be saved tim and time again Stannis, Crasters wife, Sansa and LF, Sandy, Benjen is too just overdone. Basically like a damsel in distress because it were a woman, people would have been saying exactly this. They always put him in these situations, same as Jon will die or won't die?

I don’t mind the moments when Jon needs other people to help him. I think that he does so much good for others that when people help him it’s just fine. And I couldn’t think of anyone less a damsel than my boy Jon Snow.

So here we go, you didn’t ask for this but you’re going to get it. All of the times Jon Snow either shows he is a strong ass dude who can take care of himself and/or the times Jon does genuine good for others that earn him a little good karma and assistance.

This will strictly refer to the show!Jon since anon is bringing up some examples of Jon being “saved” that we don’t know will take place in book!universe (Sansa/LF, Benjen, etc).

Jon grows up in a household full of people he can nevertruly feel a sense of belonging with. He loves his father and siblings so muchbut Catelyn and (we are to assume based on her insistent apology in 6.04) Sansa make sure he is aware that he is one apart from them. So one would understand if maybe Jon turned out to be weak or bitter. But he’s not.

He is driven from his home as a teenager,sent to live in one of the most inhospitable—and we later learn, dangerous—placesin the world. Yes, he’s a bit of a shithead at first when he’s there but he quicklylearns his place and makes friends with his brothers. The real reason I bringup his early time at the The Wall is because we get to see the strength of Jon’scharacter very quickly when he defies Alistair Thorne, putting his own statusthere in jeopardy, just to defend his friend, Sam. That takes its own sort ofbravery.

At the end of the first season after Ned is killed Jonalmost deserts The Wall so he can fight at Robb’s side. He knows theconsequences of being a deserter. Our first scene with Jon shows him watching abeheading of a deserter. He knows that he will be on the run forever and willhave to hide his identity, but he is perfectly willing to ruin his own life totry to help his brother.

In season 2 when he ranges north of The Wall with hisbrothers he is separated from them with Qhorin Halfhand and falls upon thegroup of wildlings. Jon is expected to execute Ygritte but he doesn’t, becausehe thinks for himself and sticks to his own ideals. He knows early on that itisn’t right to kill someone just because they were unlucky enough to be born northof The Wall. He defies his superiors again, again to help someone else.

When he is taken prisoner by the wildlings he followsthrough with Qhorin’s plan to stage a fight, and as Qhorin orders, Jon killshim. This is a man Jon admires, his ally. This was likely incredibly difficult buthe does it to keep them both from dying as wildling prisoners so that someonecan get back to the Watch and deliver news of what they’ve discovered.

Then Jon manages to ingratiate himself to the wildlings andbecome one of them. And while to some extent it’s an act so he can get back toCastle Black alive, he also genuinely likes the wildlings and develops realrelationships with them and a real appreciation for their spirit and way oflife. Even so, he never forgets his duty and almost dies getting back to TheWall to report back to his Brothers.

He doesn’t lie about breaking his vows and sleeping withYgritte. He could. There aren’t any wildlings at Castle Black to contradict isstory. But he is open and honest with Thorne, Maester Aemon, and the othersbecause Jon is an honest person and someone who always takes responsibility.

He takes some men with him back north of The Wall after hisreturn to avenge the mutiny at Craster’s Keep. He is under no obligation toundertake such a task and the party of men to go with him is small. Doing thisagain signifies Jon’s principles and sense of justice. He does not leave theresponsibility to someone else but takes it on himself at great personal risk,and he is successful.

When the wildlings assault Castle Black Jon fights peoplewho were his friends, and he fights bravely. If it wasn’t for his warnings tohis Brothers, his battle strategy, and his own fighting prowess, one couldargue that Castle Black would have fallen to the wildlings’ greater numbersthat day.

He then travels north of The Wall again to face Mance man-to-man and try to treat with him, knowing that to do so is likely suicide. I can’tstress this enough. In what way is this kind of courage indicative of a “damsel”character?

When Stannis’s men apprehend the wildling forces and attempt to burnMance at the stake, Jon Last of the Mohicans their sadistic asses and shootsMance to end his suffering. Once again, what a badass. He has just witnessedfirsthand what Stannis and Melisandre are capable of, and still put himself onthe line to save his friend from a tortuous death. I mean???

Also in season 5, Jon is elected Lord Commander. He hasrisen through the ranks from being a simple bastard, barely more than a child,to the leader of a force of men that protects the entire realm from thegreatest threat it has ever known. He of course, like literally ANY human, hadhelp along the way from others, but no one gavethis to him. He earned it, and did the job well—though not well enough toplease all of his Brothers (but more on that later).

While serving as Lord Commander Jon brought about the mostradical reform in the history of the Night’s Watch. He travelled north of TheWall to Hardhome with Tormund to treat with the last of the wildling forces.This scene shows us the depth of Jon’s courage when he killed a White Walker insingle combat and evacuated thousands of wildlings to safety so that the NightKing didn’t have a total victory that day.

He actually brought wildlings through the gates and intosafety despite intense protest from his Brothers. Once again, Jon put himselfin harm’s way to help other people. And of course, as we know, this cost himhis life. Literally. Thorne and the others murder Jon for what they considertreason to The Watch.

When he is brought back, Jon is given literally no time tograpple with what has happened to him. He has died and seen that there is noafterlife. He is visibly extraordinarily shaken by this incident and wantsnothing more than to leave The Wall and find peace somewhere else. But thenSansa arrives and we get another example of Jon putting his personal wellbeingsecond to assisting others.

He even tells Sansa that he has spent his entire lifefighting and is tired. But he agrees to help her take Winterfell back from theBoltons and in doing so takes part in an extremely dangerous battle where theodds are stacked soundly against them. This, as we know, starts off with Ramsay’ssick game in which he murders Rickon right before Jon’s eyes. This causes Jonto abandon the battle plan and the pincer maneuver as he rushes headlong into acolumn of armed cavalry.

Is it ill advised? Yes. Is it an emotional decision on hispart? Yes. But is it cowardly, inept, or something that makes him a “damsel”who needs saving? No. I believe strongly after having watched 6.09 severaltimes now that even if Ramsay had not pulled his stunt with Rickon and Jon’smen had followed their original battle plan verbatim, they still would have lost to Ramsay’s superior numbers and clearlyvery well-trained army without the assistance of The Vale.

So I guess you could make the argument here that the men ofThe Vale had to “rescue” Jon like a damsel in distress character. But Idisagree. This is one of the big issues that I have with season 6 and with therelationship the writers created between Jon and Sansa. Sansa knew that she hadLF on her side and the Vale’s army at her disposal, but she chose to hide thisfrom Jon. So I feel this is a matterof viewer perspective. You say Jon needed to be rescued because he is a damsel.I say Jon would not have needed any help and thousands of men could have livedinstead of died on that battlefield if only Sansa had been honest with him. Iknow that Sansa has been hardwired not to trust anyone after all that hashappened to her throughout the series, but we even heard that she trusts Jonwhen Brienne asks her about it. In the now famous scene where Briennehilariously calls Jon “brooding.”

And she had plenty of opportunity to put that trust inJon and tell him about LF. The writing in this part of the season was verystrange to me. We saw scenes, such as the one where Jon receives the letterfrom Ramsay, where Sansa was treated with respect and allowed to speak freelyand say her piece among his men and advisors. When they went around the Northasking the Stark bannermen for assistance, Sansa was by Jon’s side, treated asan equal, freely allowed to speak with these lords and try to win their favor.At no point do we see Sansa silenced by Jon or Davos or Tormund, etc. Yet onthe eve of battle, their dialogue suggests that Sansa has been given no chanceto warn Jon of Ramsay’s trickery or to tell Jon that she’s got an ace up hersleeve, that if they wait just one day, the numbers will be on their side andtheir chances of victory will be far better with LF’s army.

Instead they have a yelling match in the tent during whichSansa cryptically tells Jon not to do what Ramsay expects him to do, and leavesit at that. If she had told him that she has this other force coming their way,then things could have been different and no one would have needed saving inthe first place. I don’t feel that the events of 6.09 are the result of Jon’sown failings or something that required him to be saved as if he is a helpless,damsel character. What I think actually happened in that instance was thewriter’s doing a huge disservice to Sansa’s character–one of the smartest women and most adept survivors in the show–by making her withhold importantinformation with no real good reason that we can see, resulting in anear-disaster that simply made better suspense and good TV for the viewer because it caused the battle to be more dire for our heroes.

And as far as Benjen is concerned, the wight hunt in general seems, from what we know, to be a very foolhardy endeavor but a necessary one nonetheless. It is just another instance of Jon walking into danger to do what MUST be done. It is conceivable for not only Dany but the rest of the southron lords to need proof in order to be invested in the Great War, and someone needs to get that proof. We have seen at Hardhome just how devastatingly powerful the WW army is, and Jon faces their horde with only a handful of men. That is incredibly brave and yes, I am glad that Benjen intervenes to help him in this crucial moment.

But overall, for every person who has ever come to Jon’said, he has helped more people. He is a physically and mentally strongcharacter who still maintains his conscience and kindness in a cruel and twistedworld. Jon Snow is by far my favorite character and I will continue to love himforever, and hope that people save and help him, as he saves and helps others.Because he is the glue holding all of our favorite characters together, andwithout him, we would be watching a very different, and frankly not asinteresting show.

I think what would be boring and unwatchable would be if Jonnever needed help. If he was this impossibly perfect hero figure who not onlyalways saves the day, but is always moral and good, always does the rightthing, always looks fuckable, is a sex god who goes down on women unprompted,always treats his family right … doyou see what I’m saying? He has to mess up sometimes to be human We all needhelp sometimes, even Jon Snow. And I don’t think that makes him like a weak character as you suggest. I don’t think that at all. If anything I thinkit is more progressive in terms of gender tropes for Jon to need savingsometimes. So I don’t really know what prompted this ask, anon.

#jon snow #jon snow meta #game of thrones #got #answered

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terriblyfinal · 6 years

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MOBILE MUSE LIST!!!

currently, all muses are primarily show-based, but can be adapted to book canon with a lil research. as i read through the books, i’ll mark whose chapters i have completed with ** two asterisks ** ! if there’s a certain muse whose chapters you’d like me to prioritize, just let me know! i’ll try to get to them first! :)

FUCK JUSTICE, THEN. WE’LL GET REVENGE. an ironborn, raised at pyke, she became a reaver in her own right, defying the classical gender roles of westerosi culture. there is a boldness to the way she walks; part saunter, part sway. she possesses a sharp wit, and has no problem with holding her own against men, both in a verbal battle and in a physical fight. she is a fierce warrior and commands her own longship, to the disquiet of some of the ironborn who hold that women should not fight or command men in battle. captain of her own ship, the black wind, she has the respect and devotion of her crew— a respect and devotion that goes both ways. and, though her relationship with her brother is strained, at times, the same can be said for him; there isn’t a thing that she wouldn’t do, to keep him safe.

WHAT IN ALL THE GODS OF FIRE AND FUCK? though he was born to a noble family, asher was never trained to be a lord. he didn’t have the temper for it, never thinking before taking action, even when it meant losing the favor of his father. of all of his rebellious actions, his worst offense was falling in love with the daughter of an enemy. to avoid sparking a full on war between house forrester and house whitehill, asher was exiled to essos. there, he worked as a sellsword and he met beskha, the two of them becoming partners. together, they worked with daenerys targaryen to liberate the people of meereen, before he made his return to westeros.

** THE STRONGEST TREES ARE ROOTED IN THE DARK PLACES OF THE EARTH. DARKNESS WILL MAKE YOU STRONG. ** in childhood, bran was trained in combat and leadership by his father and the members of winterfell’s staff. though he wasn’t as talented as his brothers ( or his sister, arya, for that matter. ) it was always his dream to become a knight. that dream was dashed, however, once he was pushed from a window, fell into a coma, and lost the use of his legs. while he was in his coma, he started having visions of a three eyed crow, which he later learned were connected to his abilities as a warg. it became his mission to travel north of the wall, in search of the three eyed crow that he was seeing in his dreams, ultimately teaching him how to fly.

NOBODY MIND ME. ALL I’VE DONE IS LIVE TO A RIPE, OLD AGE. born in flea bottom, he became a sailor while very young, to escape the slums. he’s spent most of his life sailing the narrow sea, his black-sailed ship became infamous for sneaking into harbors in the dead of night while avoiding detection. during robert’s rebellion, davos served stannis baratheon while he and his troops were under siege, by delivering smuggled food into the castle, earning him a knighthood and a new title: the onion knight. the service also cost him four fingers, but he considered it justice. when stannis died, davos was at the wall and, eventually, began serving jon snow, following him through the north and back to dragonstone.

I’M ANGRY THAT HORRIBLE PEOPLE CAN TREAT GOOD PEOPLE THAT WAY AND GET AWAY WITH IT. one of the many daughters / wives of craster, gilly was a member of the free folk who lived beyond the wall. she gives birth to a son and escapes from the keep and returns to castle black with samwell tarly, naming the baby after him. the two form a close bond, resulting in gilly and the baby sticking by sam’s side, wherever he goes.

WHEN YOU’RE NOT GETTING ATTACKED OR KILLED, USUALLY YOU’RE SHOVELING. he grew up on a farm and later came to join the night’s watch. he’s strong and, though he’s not the sharpest tool in the shed, he’s fiercely loyal to his brothers in black. after the completion of his training, grenn’s assigned to be a ranger and begins his watch north of the wall.

WHERE IS IT WRITTEN THAT POWER IS THE SOLE PROVINCE OF THE WORST? a capable warrior, using swords, axes, and morningstars to deadly effect and is famed for his many tournament victories. he is beloved by the smallfolk, especially women. while courteous he is still thirsty for glory and can be short-tempered and impetuous. as his former squire and lover, at the time, loras is among the top supporters of renly baratheon’s claim to the iron throne. he helps to secure an army and serves in his kingsguard. after his death, he pledges himself to the lannisters and aligns their houses, with promises of marriage. later, he becomes an enemy of the militant faith, becoming worn down by their mistreatment.

I DON’T PLAN ON KNITTING BY THE FIRE, WHILE MEN FIGHT FOR ME.lady of bear island, lyanna was left to rule when her mother left to fight in the war of the five kings. maege mormont personally led and fought beside the mormont contingent in robb stark’s army, following the islands tradition of raising warrior women. lyanna was raised similarly, expected to be a ruler and commander - unlike many other houses, even in the north, that usually do not allow women to rule. along with the other stark vassals of the north, house mormont’s army was slaughtered at the red wedding, leaving their home garrison with only sixty two remaining warriors - led by a ten year old lyanna, because most of their people of fighting age had been killed. she pledges house mormont’s forces to house stark upon meeting jon snow, sansa stark, and davos seaworth, making her house one of the few loyalists to fight for the starks against house bolton at the battle of the bastards. afterwards, she is the first to declare jon snow the king in the north during a gathering of the northern lords at winterfell.

THE LITTLE SCRIBE WITH THE BIG GOLDEN EYES WAS WISE BEYOND HER YEARS. born on the island of naath in the summer sea, off the coast of the continent of sothoryos, missandei was enslaved at a young age and taken to slaver’s bay in essos, where she was eventually put to work as an interpreter for the masters of astapor, she was freed when daenerys targaryen took the unsullied army and used it to overthrow the slavers. she now serves daenerys as her trusted advisor and handmaiden. after daenerys flees meereen, missandei remains in the city as part of her small council along with tyrion lannister and grey worm while jorah mormont and daario naharis search for the missing queen. when daenerys returns to meereen, with a horde of dothraki, she achieves peace by ending the war over the liberation of slaver’s bay, which is later renamed the bay of dragons. missandei then sails with daenerys in order to reclaim the iron throne.

SHE HAD ALL OF HER MOTHER’S BEAUTY, AND NONE OF HER NATURE.a kind and caring individual, she is effectively the opposite of her mother and brother. after her upbringing in king’s landing, myrcella was shipped to dorne in an attempt to forge a marriage-alliance with house martell by having her wed to trystane martell, though she left her home in tears. during her years in dorne, myrcella matures greatly and learns to become somewhat independent of her family, after falling in love with trystane martell and looking up to doran martell as a surrogate father.

THE BOY MAY BE A STUMBLETONGUE, BUT HE’S NOT STUPID. cousin to ilyn payne, podrick’s life was spared because of his family name, after an incident involving a stolen ham. as punishment, he was sent to king’s landing to serve as squire to tyrion lannister. he served him well, even saving his life during the battle of the blackwater, but was forced to flee after tyrion’s arrest. since, he’s served brienne of tarth, helping her to carry out the vows she made to catelyn stark.

WHEN YOU’RE NOTHING AT ALL THERE’S NO MORE REASON TO BE AFRAID. one of the most skilled military commanders in westeros, sam’s father had hoped for a son who would carry on his leadership of house tarly in battle, not an overweight scholarly-minded son with no thirst for violence. he was forced to take the black under threat of death in order to disinherit him. if sam refused to join the night’s watch, his father told him that he would arrange a “hunting trip” with his son in the woods, and then kill him in a way that it looked like an accident. he became a steward, at castle black, and took a wildling girl and her son under his protection, falling in love with her in the process of keeping her safe. currently, he’s studying to become a maester, at the citadel.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT I WAS A BRILLIANT LIAR. born in the free city of volantis, talisa was inspired by the selfless act of a slave who saved her brother from drowning, knowing that the punishment for touching a noble was death. that day, she decided two things: when she came of age, she would not waste her years dancing with other nobles and that she would never live in a place where slavery was legal again. she sought and obtained medical training and left for westeros. she served as a healer on the battlefields of the westerlands, following the war and providing care to every injured soldier that she could, regardless of the side that they fought for.

DO YOU THINK I’M AS DUMB AS ALL THOSE GIRLS IN SILK DRESSES YOU KNEW GROWING UP? a woman of the free folk who lived north of the wall, she was well skilled in survival and was staunchly loyal to the cause of mance rayder. ygritte valued her status as a free woman, and disparaged those living south of the wall as ‘kneelers’, who blindly followed hereditary leaders instead of choosing a king. though captured by the night’s watch, the free folk soon turn the tables on the crow, taking her captors as prisoners of their own. after jon kills qhorin halfhand, they accept him as one of their own and ygritte falls in love, having convinced herself that he’s no longer one of them. when he betrays her, she grieves their relationship by preparing to sink an arrow into his heart– something that, unbeknownst to her, she could never bring herself to do.

#*muselist #*mobile ref

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music-of-dragons · 2 years

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I know I'm not the most active on here, but I'm putting in work elsewhere 😩 Red is the idiot, my reply is in white.

● Wrong. Daenerys has a council made up of both rich and poor whom she always takes into account when making a decision. This is a girl who let a man spit on her in court and merely had him removed from the temple. A boy lunged at her to attack her and again, only had him removed. She plants trees and beans, has irrigation canals built, and she DOES pay her men to work until the gold runs dry, she then pays them with food and shelter. They have a choice, it is not slavery, and her freedmen STILL love her despite the hardship as seen in Tyrion's Winds chapter. They are crying out for her to come back and smash the slavers once again. She trapped herself an an unhappy marriage and locked up her dragons in the name of peace. She learned her lesson from Astapor, that's the entire reason she stays in Meeren, it's not like she kept on doing the same thing after, she refuses, and Astapor haunts her throughout her chapters. Nowhere in book 5 does Dany start burning stuff down because "eff peace" NOWHERE. I read her chapters all the time, that is false.

● This is just blatantly false. Unlike the show, the reason Drogo's Khalasar attacked the Lhazareen was because ANOTHER KHAL was attacking them first, Drogo surprise attacked him to gain more respect and steal his victory. The moment Dany realized all of the terrible things happening she tried to convince herself to ignore it for all of 30 seconds before putting a stop to it. Her power was dependent on Drogo, she was nothing to the Khalasar without him, so she had to work within his power to protect the women she saved. Also, the slaves were not starving, Meereen had freshly fallen and the slaves who wanted to sell themselves back into slavery were "gently born" bed slaves, scribes, and teachers, who saw a better life that way. She freed them to give them choice, she was not going to force them to remain in Meereen knowing that war was coming. Also, it was Missandei, a former slave, who suggested taxing the slavery to deincentivize it and Daenerys put that right back into Meereen's economy. She never pockets any gold, her goal in Meereen is rebuilding.

● Daenerys approved the use of torture *once* in the series because 9 people, including an outspoken leader of the Yunkish freedmen, were murdered in a single night. She wasn't a "favorite slave" she was a leader on Dany's council. There had been many more murders before that and they had no leads. Torture falls within the accepted values of society in ASOIAF; Crow cages for villages (Catelyn wanted Theon in one), Ice Cells for the Night's Watch (also Qhorin Halfhand tortured a wildling to death), Sky Cells and an abusive inkeep for The Vale, the Black Cells and torturers for King's Landing, I could go on. Stannis tortures Theon and lets people be burned alive, The Manderlys have a torturer named Garth, the Faith utilize torture for information, even King Jaehaerys the Conciliator used torture to get information. And above all of what I just listed, Daenerys is the first and only leader in the books to openly condemn and ban the use of torture afterward. She recognizes that it is useless and cruel. Again, she paid them wages until she was besieged and the gold ran out, she pays them with what she has. She DOES NOT force anyone to work, you're using the exact argument that Xaro, an unrepentant slaver who compared slavery to rain, tried to use to convince Dany to allow slavery again. I think you're missing the point. Her freedmen still love her and want her to rule despite the hardship, NO ONE is calling Dany a slaver in the books, not even the people who hate her. They all hate her because she is a liberator.

"Hell, her whole ‘kill a city of innocents’ schtick? She’s already done that in the books. When ordering her brand new Unsullied to sack Astapor, she ordered them:

“Slay the Good Masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who wears a tokar or holds a whip, but harm no child under twelve, and strike the chains off every slave you see.”

● A tokar can ONLY be worn by slavers. Know why? Because it takes your hands to hold it in place, only people who do not use their hands because they have slaves to do everything for them can wear it. It is the symbol of a slaver. Also, "harm no child under 12" DOES NOT mean "kill everyone over 12". In her society, a boy is considered a man at 14, they begin training with sword and shield long before that. Doubtless, young boys would try to fight the Unsullied, but she didn't want them harmed so she gave a rough age of accountability on the spot. I feel like people intentionally misread this to villainize Dany even though the entire reason she wanted to free the Unsullied was to save children from torture. She is constantly contemplating her want and love for children, you have to think about these scenes in the context of her character, Dany would never want children to be slaughtered. However, I think the most important thing to acknowledge when it comes to Astapor was that Dany learned her lesson and decided to take the next city without laying a hand on them, then stayed to rule in Meereen to stabilize it.

There is no meticulously built up madness arc, at all. The point of George's key 5 are that they are the underdogs of society who defy the expectations of their world at every turn, and even though some are hated, they will be the ones to rise up and save the world from the Long Night. George is not pessimistic, he's not centrist, and he certainly believes in righteous war. At its heart, ASOIAF is still a fantasy series, George just doesn't brush over the hardships and ugly truths like most fantasy novels do. Most of your evidence is easily disproven by the text, I'll whip out book quotes if you want me to.

#daenerys targaryen #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #dany #book!daenerys #book!dany #pro dany #anti game of thrones

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