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anohai · 1 year

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A big issue with Seyka’s character arc in Burning Shores...

*clicks tongue* Fuck it.

I debated over writing this out and posting it. Decided I might as well for not only my personal catharsis, but because it's been over 3 weeks since Burning Shores came out, I have had the time to mull things over more, talk with some friendly people who came to the some of the same conclusions I did, and really analyze everything. I’ve seen a sprinkle of other people expressing something similar to what I am about to cover, but I felt this deserved its own topic of conversation.

And forewarn, there be spoilers.

Of course, we're back to Seyka. I promise I'm not trying to pick on her. She actually has loads of potential, and I don't think she's a bad character. It's just she deserved better than what was shown in her overall character arc.

Last time, I wrote about the Seyloy romance, and why it is difficult (for some more than others) to feel good about it. This critique isn't going to be about that again in case you are wondering if I'm simply yelling louder in the echo chamber, but there will be some correlation to it. The more I played the DLC, the more I realized that while I still wasn’t sold on the romance, it wasn’t the root of why something felt off with Seyka’s story to me. So once the adrenaline of having a new shiny DLC to run around in wore off and was able to properly take my time soaking things in, this was the conclusion I came to:

The biggest issue with Seyka's entire character arc is that they tried way too hard to make her near-exile situation comparable to Aloy's when it very, very much is not.

In any capacity whatsoever. As to why?

Seyka tells us at one point that she loves her tribe, her community, and has always felt she's had a place in it until recently. The reason she's in any hot water at all when we meet her is because she ran off and stole a diviner's focus. Seyka is a marine, not a diviner so we know this is considered a huge taboo among the Quen. They are a sovereign tribe with a classicist system where the people are allowed to know only what is deemed necessary based on their role and/or rank. Should rules be broken, we are left to assume based on our conversations with Alva and even interactions with the Ceo & Overseer Bohai in HFW that the royal family and those in charge are imposing & unforgiving enough that normally there are severe consequences.

Luckily for Seyka, this isn't the case.

The first time we follow her back to Fleet's End, we're met with those who are referred to as Compliance Officers who are wanting a nasty word or two with our new friend. We are brought to Admiral Gerrit, the real person in charge, and he is....actually quite understanding of Seyka's actions. He gives her a quick verbal slap on the wrist but proceeds to give her full permission to continue her search for her sister and their other missing people with the stolen focus on hand. He's humble enough to tell Aloy in a private conversation afterwards if you choose to talk to him that their faction of the expedition has been spread thin enough as it is and Seyka has already proven herself to be a valuable and skilled member. Enough so that he admits he’s become increasingly reliant on her regardless of only being a petty officer in title. This assessment is fair and kind. It’s more than I would have expected out of someone with such a high position among the Quen of all tribes.

Seyka is given a huge safety net thanks to this swell guy. The compliance offers themselves can't do anything, and from what we see in the side quests, they are seemingly nothing more than a few school-yard bullies without any real authority to their position. They are annoying & petty at worst. All bark, no bite. As far as the rest of the Quen go, most individuals we come across seem either pretty cool or neutral with Seyka. It's not until later that we get any indication there are some who are calling for her exile afterall, but we only know this because we hear it from Seyka instead of seeing it happen. People are talking, as they will, and she's furious about it.

But really....the threat still isn't there. It never was. At least not to the extent I think we are supposed to believe it was.

All things considered, Seyka was placed in a very privileged, advantageous position amongst those in her tribe. Along with the lack of visible threat, there is never any real tension shown minus a few grumblings expressed in the background when we first arrive in Fleet’s End. And despite how Aloy perceives her, Seyka isn’t exactly a black sheep here. Especially when you consider she never had any personal turmoil with the rest of her tribe until not long before the events of Burning Shores and happily tells you herself she has always felt like she’s belonged. She's pretty much allowed to do what she wants without much pushback, and I found myself rolling my eyes during the final scene where she says she's unsure of where she stands with her tribe. Seyka is not an outcast, and I, for one, was never convinced or afraid she was at real risk of becoming one.

Which makes this all the more confusing when Aloy says she's an inspiration. An outcast in all but name. I'm willing to chalk some of this up to hormones talking and Aloy's growing infatuation taking a choke hold as most first time crushes will do. Except the problem here is that the writing clearly felt like we were meant to connect Seyka's strife with Aloy's on some level; carry the same sympathy for her that Aloy expresses, and see more of where their similarities hold up.

And yet...

I felt more for Kotallo who was kicked from his initial clan because his leader saw him as a threat and then later, might as well have gotten demoted for losing an arm because his tribe sees him as near useless for it..

And Zo who lives among the most pacifist, peace-loving tribe and was admonished when she not only went to fight back in the Red Raids, but wanted to do something about the blight and their broken Land Gods..

And Talanah who had to fight against blatant sexism that many carry in her tribe and an actual attempt for her murder all because she wanted to move up in the Lodge and make things better..

And Aloy, herself, who was outcast at birth for simply being born without a mother. And spent her entire life with only the man who raised her for company. In one small valley. For 19 years. Because there was no choice for her.

But somehow, we're supposed to see Seyka the same way Aloy does? Like no one she's ever met??

I...Really?

I'm sorry, but I don't buy this rebel fighter, near-outcast ploy here. And saying she's unlike anyone Aloy has ever met feels like a slap in the face to not only Aloy, herself, but to some of her companions we have come to know & love in the first two games. Most of whom I'd argue have been through more hell because of their own tribes long before they even met her. Seyka's plight is trivial, inconsequential in comparison and no where near as crippling as Aloy's was or her friends. It's honestly frustrating that it feels suggested it is.

What's worse is that this plotline is used as one big narrative tool to bring Seyka and Aloy closer on standing grounds outside of ability and personality. This essentially means Seyka and her entire character arc were written for the sole purpose of the romance. A character built for Aloy to quickly fall head over heels for and add progress in her own arc. I wrote last time that I can see this growth as an opportunity to explore romance further for Aloy with a pre-established character or two in H3. If I’m right & that happens to be the heart-wrenching, long-term, master plan Guerilla is going for, they have my applause (and my stress). Great for Aloy. In my opinion though, being created to be a love interest (lasting or not) for the main hero is a bit unfair to Seyka.

She's clever, she's badass, and she isn't afraid to take action without permission and help where she can. Next to Aloy, however, she stands as a self-reflection of her. A spotless mirror as to who Aloy could have been had she grown up under a community as well. I would love to see Seyka break out on her own as an individual character that isn't in the context of romance if ever given the opportunity.

Heck, if Guerilla wanted to in the eventuality they will be finished with Aloy's story, the Quen have easy potential to have an entire spinoff game revolved around them. We have a whole side quest in BS where a small group of Quen want to sneak focuses to non-diviners for the sake of knowing what's usually kept hidden from them. Hello, is that the beginnings of a rebellion, I see? And the world of Horizon has yet to be explored in places outside of the North American continent. Other tribes, different machines, more Old World locations, etc. Loads of potential everywhere. And guess what!? We practically have a budding main character on a silver platter: Seyka! She obviously has big enough main character energy. Might as well utilize it outside of a DLC if you can, and I don't mean for the next game.

It's hard say for sure whether or not Seyka will remain a DLC character. No matter what fans say, the ending was left ambiguous. Not only because of the romance but also where Seyka's future lies. She knows about Nemesis, yet she tells Aloy she's unsure of what she wants to do after her faction reunites with the other half in San Francisco, whether it's going home or something else. I would think if Guerilla had solid plans to include her in H3 while they were developing Burning Shores, they would have written the ending where she either offers to stay behind in Legacy’s Landfall for a time like Alva does or Aloy asks for her aid to help fight against Nemesis. Something to make it more clear she's here to stay. We don't though, so as far as anyone outside of Guerilla is currently aware, Seyka is not guaranteed to play a big part in H3 if any at all. And remember, DLCs are meant to be an extension of the main game and are primarily optional. They are typically not a requirement for playing the next big installment as far as understanding the story goes.

If she does show up in H3, the only thing I dread is the idea of her coming up and saying she's basically denounced her tribe because she still feels out of place and doesn't think she can belong afterall. Not to mention she has her sister, and after what happened with Kina, it would be a really bad look if she just decided to permanently leave her behind when her tribe isn't or never was trying that hard to push her away in the first place. And Seyka said it herself. She’s “not some weak-kneed sailor who abandons ship when the seas get rough,” and I’d like to believe she means it. It'd be one thing if she actually is forced into exile, but after the events of the DLC, she has too good of a repertoire for that to happen now. At least while she's outside of Quen homelands.

(Btw, don't even get me started on Aloy's convo with Kina over "remember Seyka's been through a lot too" as if we didn't just rescue this poor girl from A CULT and nearly groomed into becoming this centuries-old dude's image of his dead wife. Like honey, I know you're in love but have some thought & tact here.)

That’s about it. I will reiterate that as a character, I do actually like Seyka. As a self-imposed outcast? No. As Aloy’s love interest? That…needs some serious work. But as an individual who loves her tribe but will fight for what she believes in even if it means going against the royal, societal grain? Absolutely! And special kudos to Kylie Liya Page for bringing her to life.

Also, if you want to read a review that summarizes everything I just ranted about better than I could manage, along with everything good and not-so-great when it comes to the DLC, I recommend this essay here by ariseis.

If you made it to the end of this long rant, thanks for reading~

#horizon #horizon forbidden west #horizon zero dawn #hfw #burning shores #hfw burning shores #horizon forbidden west burning shores #seyka #burning shores spoilers #burning shores critique #guerilla

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foibles-fables · 1 year

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You already talked about your thoughts on the romance, but what did you think of the rest of the plot of the DLC, with the Quen and Londra? I believe you posted that you didn’t love the overall plot and writing of Forbidden West, so I was curious if the DLC had done better plot-wise for you or if you had concerns going into the third game?

Since you're asking outside of the romance, I will answer outside of it as well!

So, Ashly Burch herself compared the DLC to a summer blockbuster movie--and I have to say that she was right.

On the surface, the plot was fun. Definitely an action thriller with the cult, and the Zenith tech, and the Horus! The stunning visuals definitely helped with all of this, too.

The writing? Fell flat to me, sure. (Like a summer blockbuster.) And most of my criticisms do fall in line with the issues I had with HFW.

There was a lot of inelegance in the telling of things, not the showing. The Quen were, IMO, underutilized for it being their DLC. Interesting aspects of their culture were touched upon, but--never quite enough, you know? We get told about Compliance...told about their other issues...but not really shown a lot? And I think that's definitely credence to the sparsity of the Burning Shores as opposed to the Frozen Wilds, where we were immersed headlong into Banuk culture. It would've been nifty if there had been more (mandatory) side quests to tether us to the Quen more, like having to build up clout to challenge Aratak in FWilds.

As far as the plot with Londra--while the "oh no, somehow a Zenith escaped" plot is a little convenient, it does a really nice job of 1) establishing the DLC as postgame and 2) containing the DLC unto itself. I can overlook the convenience writing of Zenith Tech (both for the spaceship and the Horus) because, well, it's what we were given in HFW, so there's precedent. I thought the cult was a pretty good and believable angle, too, given the nature of the Quen and their relationship to the Ancestors.

Which...brings up one of my major ????s. The handwavey reason for the Fleet's End Quen not recognizing Aloy as Elisabet Sobeck--because their Diviners are gone? That doesn't match up super well with Alva's dialogue to the Marines in HFW. "Don't you see? etc." That was one of the issues that threw me.

The other was...how Kina was treated at the end? About how she would need to earn Seyka's forgiveness? For being young, brainwashed, traumatized, prepped to be taken as a creepy wife stand-in mate? Oh man. That was...pretty yeesh and not the outcome I was expecting from that conversation, TBH.

I think a lot of the Dangers (the cult, the radiation, the Horus, the Kina issue) could have benefited from some more time to breathe, but it was a short DLC! Maybe picking and choosing the crises would've helped. Not stretch everything so thin, you know? Trying to do So Much all at once, a lot like HFW.

BUT! I gotta shout out the absolute gems, too. Once again, the datapoints were the heart and soul of the series--I hope the datapoint writers are proud of themselves, because goddamn, they should be. And Gildun's quest? Don't even talk to me. Made the whole DLC for me. I adore the way he's written, and I adore the way his quest highlights Aloy's growth since FWilds in subtle ways. Chef's kiss.

That kinda covers my base-level thoughts, nonny! I'll be back with "AND ANOTHER THING" if anything hits me, lmao

#horizon critical #(to be safe)#burning shores spoilers #horizon burning shores #horizon forbidden west burning shores

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artekai · 1 year

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Artekai's arc is about getting over his savior complex. That's WHY his arc starts near the end of HZD, when he learns about Takuto. It's literally him looking into a mirror and not liking what he sees. He has such an averse reaction to being called out, to having the destiny he THOUGHT he would have challenged, that he storms off, throwing away everything that ACTUALLY made him who he was. His friends, his love for his homeland, his willingness to help people.

It's unfair, right? Aloy never wanted the weight of the world on her shoulders, so WHY does she get to play savior and he doesn't? Why did the universe pick HER over him? What did she have that he hadn't? Elisabet's DNA?

During HFW, Artekai decides to turn his attention elsewhere, to Far Zenith. Maybe if he can't save the world like Aloy, maybe he can at least help Sylens protect it from Far Zenith, even if it's through horrible means. But then he meets Fross, who's eager to let him play savior with him. And Artekai is like, hey, if I can't be important to the world, maybe I can be important to this one person.

He picks Fross because he feels like a blank slate. He has no idea who Takuto is. He has no idea what the fuck has been going on in Earth over the past 800 years. Artekai can tell him anything and Fross will side with him. He has no contact with GAIA or Aloy or anyone who'll be able to correct him, or tell him who Takuto was.

Fross might be taking control of the relationship and how it progresses, but Artekai is taking control of the flow of information, of the way Fross thinks of him, of what he discloses, when he discloses it, and how. But really, he's playing Fross's game, being who he knows Fross wants him to be in a desperate bid for acceptance and a certain degree of control.

Most importantly, though, Fross is just as lonely as Kai is. He's the one piece that doesn't fit in Far Zenith, just like Kai is the one piece that doesn't fit into the GAIA gang. Fross won't run off into the wilds and cut off all contact and come back having replaced Artekai with newer, better friends, like Aloy did. Kai is the most important person in Fross's life, just like Fross is the most important person in Kai's life. It's only fair.

But, of course, this relationship only works for so long. Fross and Kai are incompatible and destined to break up in every timeline.

Kai is outraged and mortified that Fross lied to him all along, refusing to tell him about Nemesis and instead playing the victim, making himself out to be the "one good Zenith." The one Zenith who never meant for any of this to happen, who's just so so sad and pathetic and wants to start over on Earth, alongside a knight in shining armor that protects him and keeps him safe...

But it's now obvious that Fross never really knew Kai. He just fell in love with the idea of having him.

The perfect tale of forbidden love that Fross had put in Artekai's head now feels like nothing more than a betrayal. In so many ways, this is way worse than what happened with Aloy...

Kai has a habit of thinking of his relationships as fleeting, knowing they never tend to last long as he's always out and about. But he dared to think of his relationship with Aloy and then his relationship Fross as The One that was destined to last, and he got his heart broken for it both times. Will anyone truly love him for who he is? Is it really so selfish to want someone to stay for once?

Anyways. Back to Kai's savior complex.

Where Kai has always been looking to save someone, Fross is used to being the one who is saved (mostly by Tilda...). Most notably, though, he used to look up to Ted Faro as the savior of humanity growing up, and when Ted Faro seemingly betrayed that trust, he refused to acknowledge that he himself was well in his way to becoming just like him. Ted was his Frankenstein, and Fross was his monster. You know how it is with parasocial relationships.

What I mean to say is, Fross puts his whole life in other people's hands and then blames them for not doing more when things inevitably go wrong.

In that way, Fross and Kai complement each other. But Kai saw himself and realized he needed to make a change, while Fross was like "I wonder who that's for," because Fross is a victim, and, therefore, above criticism.

The real question is, once again, how can Artekai fully get over his savior complex when Aloy is still right there proving that what he wants can be done and can be done right? It's obviously not working out for him, but why is he being punished for the same thing that Aloy is being rewarded for? Because of her genes? Is he just not special?

I do think Artekai's Horizon 3 arc should involve him repairing his relationship with Aloy. Tragically, it can never be what it once was (I will be forever heartbroken about this 😔), but it's still an important step for Kai to make peace with her and what happened between them and to come to terms with his feelings about her. And, maybe, if they both COMMUNICATED instead of RUNNING OFF--

Haha, anyways

I get Aloy has protagonist syndrome but her being treated like the specialest girl in the world is throwing a wrench in Artekai's character development 😔 Getting over his savior complex isn't about putting aside his desire to be a savior to protect the real savior instead, but about realizing that the fate of the world shouldn't be dependent on one person.

Guerrilla pls give me more to work with I am asking very niceys 🙏

#*gripping sink* i can work with whatever canon gives me i can work with it i can work with this i CAN #this was just supposed to be two paragraphs at most about kai's savior complex and instead i ended up writing a dissertation on frosskai #as per usual 😔 *head in hands*#oc tag #oc: artekai #oc: fross #frosskai #long post #ramble #deni's stuff #horizon au #horizon oc

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