right okay i dont know exactly how persistent an issue this is bc i almost never go into the tags on this website, but even ive noticed this happening so i feel like that’s justification to make a post about it. the whitewashing of julian bashir as an established Thing not just in the fandom but in official merch has been discussed before, but recently i’ve noticed the inverse happening with martok and b’elanna, a white character and a lighter latina character who people seem to often draw darker than they are in canon. and there’s like. a Lot going on there to unpack.

so this video goes into some detail about the racism baked into the origins and design of the klingons in tos, it’s very informative about the anti-asian stereotypes especially in a 60s context but i feel like it doesnt really cover the way that antiblackness becomes a more significant factor in the next gen era so like. if you didn’t know, the majority of the klingon characters in the next gen-ds9-voyager era are either played by actors with dark skin or Very frequently by white actors in heavy dark makeup. if you look up the actors of grilka, alexander, kehleyr, and sirella for example you’ll see what im talking about like the difference is Stark and these are some of the main recurring klingons across both shows. hopefully i do not need to explain why packing white actors in brown makeup to play members of a species characterised as violent, warlike and animalistic is racist. i say hopefully bc who knows with this website. anyway i’d recommend this video for a wider context on the legacy of blackface in tv!

martok is a rare example of a klingon played by a white actor who, as far as i can tell, does not have his skin significantly darkened. so to see him frequently being drawn with darker skin is uh Slightly Concerning given everything in the previous paragraph! ive even seen art where he’s drawn darker than julian in the same post which... anyway im not trying to blanket condemn reinterpreting the design of alien characters in fanart, but i am asking white fans like myself in particular to think critically as to why, out of all the white characters and aliens on ds9, martok is the one you want to do that with.

because b’elanna is not a white character i think its a slightly different situation, but at the same time she does have lighter skin and i have seen fanart of her drawn much much darker and once again, im not condeming it especially in works ive seen which explore the relationship bewteen her latina and klingon identities, but its something white fans need to handle carefully. in the voyager episode Faces where she gets split into a human and klingon version of her (dont have time to unpack all that) you can see the difference in undertones between human b’elanna and klingon b’elanna (also included a pic of regular b’elanna for reference). the brown makeup is obvious here too and if you can see why it might be racist to attribute a person’s rage and violent impulses to a part of themself that is then personified as darker skinned/more brown, then you might also see some of the wider problems going on here and can understand that this is something that demands a lot of thought and consideration.

i’d like to reiterate that this is a very complex and nuanced issue, especially considering the intersection of fictional race within the setting and the racial biases operating behind the scenes/metatextually, and i’d love to discuss it more (and to cite better sources than youtube videos when i have the time). but for now i’d just like to say yeah just ask yourself what the implications might be to drawing these characters in particular darker than they are in canon, especially if theyre the only characters you do that for, or you’re intentionally contrasting them with other characters (e.g. b/7 fanart) or yk. drawing a white character darker than a character of colour like ive seen people do with julian and martok.

big hot topic on tiktok that has been talked abt often that i wanna throw my two cents in abt the discussion but will do so here bc its going to be way easier than condensing it in 60 seconds and ppl will get even more mad abt it on there. under a cut so you can just not look if you don’t want to as it’s probably long and no one likes this discussion 

disclaimer: im not jewish. culturally or religiously at all. so i do not have the best of insight of jewish folklore and i will mainly be repeating what i have heard jewish ppl say on it but you listening to jewish ppl on it will invariably be way more helpful. ultimately i am not talking to make an argument for or against lilith worship bc i can’t make that call, mainly just that arguments for it i see tend to be deeply flawed. ive seen jewish people who say they don’t care if people worship her and ive seen jewish people who are very much against it and frankly no one needs my non jewish ass giving them permission on it, i just don’t like some of the harmful arguments and at times BLATANT anti-Semitism i see in the discussions

“lilith isn’t a closed practice!!! she cant be closed!!! she’s a being/deity we can all recognize!!!”

this i feel starts with a misunderstanding of what “closed practice” means. a closed practice is a very broad term to describe any practices, typically spiritually in nature that are not freely shared 100% openly, usually due to trying to preserve cultural or religious practices. you can learn about most of them--if you go to a primary source. many people of closed practices are open about talking about it and teaching it to people who are interested, and some cannot due to years of oppression and theft of those said practices. some require initiation, and a lot of them are passed down with heavy cultural ties. and most importantly “closed practice” is a relatively new understanding of cultural preservation after colonization. 

judaism isn’t a ‘fully closed’ religion, but it does have a set conversion order in place, and typically while converting you will learn under a rabbi or teacher. a lot of jewish mysticism, magic, and folklore are passed down culturally, so even converts may take a very long time to learn all the ins and outs of it. and a lot of times jewish practices, beliefs, texts, and folklore has been wholesale stolen by western new-age spiritualists, occultists throughout the ages, and demonized by people who seek to harm jewish people as a whole. 

the pure fact of the matter is that unless you are learning from jewish people theres going to be a lot of things about lilith you don’t know. your understanding outside of the cultural jewish understanding of her is very different, yet you are the one who also constantly equates them as the same being with the same stories, with some modifications. yet time and time again whenever a jewish person would express anxiety over it (as she can be viewed as a very HARMFUL spirit to jewish people and not a deity for them) you talk over them and call them sexist, and when they try to correct you over misunderstandings of her stories you tell them you know more than them. 

with closed practices what doesn’t matter is your bloodline or your skin, it is about the information you have access culturally, and that information may be kept from people like you so that the faith in question can be preserved because it has been threatened. and yes, jewish people have had their cultural, spiritual, and religious practices threatened. it isn’t about keeping you out because they don’t like you, its about the fact that you don’t know everything and the way you are going to learn it will be difficult and very different. ive seen white voodou workers who are actual recognized practioners (sorry for the lack of proper terminology on this i know they have proper words/titles but i dont know them), and they didn’t just look up whatever they could find online, they had to seek out a priest to learn from, and it took a lot of time and training. 

there is a way to approach closed religious/spiritual practices, and someone saying ‘this is closed’ is not them saying ‘go away you cant even look at or be interested in this thing it is not for and never will be for people like YOU’. and ultimately HOW you go about approaching it will be decided by someone in that culture, and not however you feel would be the best way to do it as an outsider.

“how could so many people, if they aren’t actually contacting the “real lilith” be wrong? if shes from a closed practice she couldn’t reach out to so many people right? so they aren’t doing anything disrespectful” 

spirits, deities, and other entities from closed practices do reach out to outsiders on occasion and the correct course for dealing with that is to immediately find a person of religious/spiritual authority and trying to work with that person to better understand why. again the point above: you do not have the cultural knowledge to work with them, you do not understand how to identify them, what practices best suit them, the multitudes of stories around them, and history of them working with humans. if you actually value them as an entity it is imperative you understand from a PRIMARY source all of this information, not just second and third hand accounts of outsiders. 

and also a lot of colonizers have claimed to be personally connected or contacted by entities from a closed practice and use that as an excuse to not only not learn, but speak as an authority figure about them. there are people who claim to work with shinto spirits with absolutely 0 actual knowledge on shintoism yet feel like they have an authority to speak on it. there are people who claim to have been contacted by voodou, hoodou, and vodun spirits/entities and know nothing about it yet speak as authority figures on it. i’ve seen someone do it for a polynesian god. they did not care about actual learning, they cared about their own beliefs, validating those said already existing beliefs, and getting validation online. am i saying everyone is doing this with lilith? no. but saying “people wouldnt just lie/be wrong right?” yeah. yeah it happens all the time. 

“they don’t even like her, they fear her, she’s a demon to them and is actually from babylonia, we are NOT worshipping the same version as her and they don’t even want anything to do with her so why does it matter” 

in terms of actual cultural study a lot of jewish and christian stories are born from the cultures their people have had contact with. historically yes, jewish people have been in babylonia, assyria, and that area, and have made cultural exchanges with those people. a lot of cultural sharing has occured throughout history, but the jewish tellings of the stories have particularly jewish cultural knowledge and heritage in them. also we frankly do not have a lot of concrete surviving stories of lili, lilu, and lilitu, so i know you are not basing the meat and bones of your practice on those unless you have access to that cultural knowledge that not even archaeologists and anthropologists even know exists. most of it is on middle ages mysticism that developed her further based on jewish folklore and religious stories. 

also just because a culture doesn’t worship and revere a spirit doesn’t mean it is yours for the adopting and taking. we see this with the cannibalistic spirit i will not name from algonquin tribes and shapeshifting spirits/witches i also will not name from navajo. these are not spirits you’re supposed to mention or talk about, and even more so because their culture has such intense, negative stories around them means you should probably give it a little more thought. 

the last point i am going to make is the general, overt anti-semitism i see. stop comparing judaism to christianity. stop saying they are evil and misrepresent her because judaism is inherently sexist. stop saying they are oppressing your culturally christian raised ass. stop saying jewish people have no culture of their own and its “all stolen from pagan traditions” (which are somehow all equally open for you to take from too i suppose, as though middle eastern practices are exactly the same cultural weight as all white european ones)

again im not for the forceful closing of practices and i cannot give you fucking permission as i sure as shit do not know but i don’t think any of you even understand what “closed practice” means and why jewish people might have even the slightest misgivings about you working with or worshipping her and it really shows. if you have been heavily studying the occult, jewish traditions, and are doing so respectfully then i sure as hell am not here to argue with you about it so don’t come at me for it. what i am saying is a lot of people who do not have that and are absolutely disrespectful towards judaism and jewish people as a whole really keep making an ass of themselves on witchtok and are absolutely insufferable towards any jewish person who voices their thoughts and feelings on it, and i have a problem with that.