im doing a thing with my ocs and i need recs of media with tragic siblings (or sibling figures) fighting pleasee

Hey I finished reading part one of chainsaw man and like I don’t understand why people call it a masterpiece. Like the first half was great and the revelation of makima was great but afterwards it became messy and the plot just disappeared.

Like really? Makima reasoning of fucking everything up is bc she’s a fan of OG chainsaw man? There’s zero background information about the OG chainsaw man other than what makima said in the manga. Characters with the exception of aki,power, angle, denji aren’t even fleshed out and they just died like that. There were no hints that denji power erased devils existence like NOTHING was fleshed out or informative. The ending was so bland ig, like I was expecting some explanation but no, I received nothing. Chainsaw man is only great when it comes to fights, artsyle, and making people uncomfortable, but the plot wasn’t going anywhere and completely erased itself from existence.

Like people was hyping up the manga so much and I agree the hype was worth it until after makima revelation. I’m the type of person who likes good written plots like attack on titan or cliche shouen plots but not boring like jujutsu kaisen. Of all shouen manga I read I feel like chainsaw man is the only one I don’t feel like continuing. I’m in part 2 now and I don’t feel like forcing myself reading it, waiting for something great to happen or waiting for the PLOT to come back.

Anyways I’m just wondering if you can convince me to continue it.

hmmmmmmmmm while i can see what you're saying, i kinda disagree.

chainsaw man part 1 is exactly that... part 1. im under the assumption that the things we're going to learn about denji and the og chainsaw man will continue to develop as the series goes on, but i can see what you're saying about it not feeling fleshed out. but it's also not over yet.

as for csm being a masterpiece, i personally think that that part comes in with the visual storytelling. fujimoto's art is fantastic at indicating tone and power through the positioning of his characters, as well as putting symbolism within the art itself. i think fujimoto's skill shines through in the way he demonstrates denji being manipulated by the people around him, as well as how he goes about telling denji's perception of love, sex, and human connection. it's a manga about manipulation, set in an alternate universe.

imo, chainsaw man really shines when you read between the lines of what's being presented to you at face value. if you're reading the manga at face value... then you're only seeing one aspect of it. it's really clear that fujimoto put a lot of thought into the interactions his characters have in the manga, as well as how he positions them in the frames themselves. i think this is actually ESPECIALLY true for makima and the way she's portrayed.

also, when it comes to fleshing out characters, i agree that some weren’t fully fleshed out but i also kind of look at it as like... some characters are present to push the narrative forward. sometimes they aren’t fleshed out and that’s totally fine. like while i love the violence fiend, i don’t feel like the plot suffered because we didn’t get his backstory or like... a full character arc for him. he’s a side character, sometimes they aren’t fleshed out. i wanted to see more about kobeni, but i think she’ll come back later and we’ll learn more. the story isn’t over yet, so more information about characters is going to keep coming. it makes sense to me that they haven’t laid everything out already... bc that’s the continuation of the plot lol

fact is though, if you didn't like it, then it's probably just not the manga for you and that's totally fine. you don't have to like the story the way i do or even agree with me that it's a masterpiece. it's media, everyone is going to read into it differently. i just happen to think it's worth looking at further than face value because when i read it that way, it completely changed the way i see the manga.

though i am going to say... if you don't like jujutsu kaisen... you probably will not like chainsaw man. they're very similar series and fall into a super similar genre. jjk functions the same way, with its characters and stories having more depth (imo) than just what's being presented at face value. i happen to find jjk to be very interesting and well-written (aside from the way it treats its female characters on occasion) and that's probably why i like chainsaw man as much as i do. i enjoy media analysis and those two series happen to be ones that benefit GREATLY from it and have a lot to unpack.

i think you and i just happen to have differing opinions about the series we enjoy bc while i love aot, i think both jjk and chainsaw man have more coherent plots (though neither of them are finished yet). that's not to say i don't like aot and think it's good, i just think that csm and jjk are better.

anyway, i don't think i can convince you to like or continue csm if you don't already like it 😭😭😭 especially if you don't like jjk (since they're p much the same genre)

need your thoughts on csm and particularly part 1 now that you're caught up

I think my immediate reaction on finishing part 1 was like

loved the art, loved the characters def feel like the story has a lot further to go thematically, only really picked up for me with the reveal of the gun devil

I now think CSM's strength in the early arcs is the patience of the construction of Denji as an everyman resisting the reality that the promised capitalist horizon he imagines is a lie.

now that you can tell the horrible direction my thoughts are going in I will continue under the cut, this is so long oh god. cw: canon typical violence, sexual assault etc.

Initially the repeated invocation of wanting to kiss a girl and eat a good meal as ultimate dreams and Denji being presented as an idiot for it felt like a cheap way for readers to get to root for him in a very Naruto sort of way yk? Poor orphan boy wants a basic life. This is disrupted right from the start ofc, starting with the Himeno's assault and Makima's whole deal. I think this construction becomes more valuable in part 2 when with Nayuta there is a very intentional attempt to construct a family, where the horizon is a normality that includes saving up for college. Nayuta's resistance to some of it becomes more interesting than just jealousy or protection imo.

I think the complications of the "workplace" as it functions for Denji in part 1, living quite literally under Aki's supervision with Power invokes the very familiar team as family stuff under threat. The explicit knowledge of how he has exchanged one debtor for another is v effective especially when they take care of Power. You have him and the readers being forced to confront that purpotedly transactional relationships do not exclude the sort for the simple honesty of care we idealise. And that the care will be weaponised anyway. Aki's abortive attempt to opt out is chef's kiss.

The reveal of the use of the gun devil by nation states might functionally be the first moment Denji is forced to acknowledge the complicated incentives of the Bureau. You get to link the exploitation of people to the more obvious rot in liberal institutions. Part 2 then ratchets this up with the discourses on propaganda and mass participation.

I thought the "Killing of Makima" involving the use of the Bureau insiders led by the old man leaned a little too much on their heroism, vibes wise but I also get why narratively that needs to be done. Which is why Kobeni is so important to me lol. The art and creativity on display at the end of Part 1 was like gorging yourself on one of those early pictures of Paradise. The apartment scene could get read as Makima's personal cruelty but I think it's just making explicit the cruel seductions of modernity etc etc. As a violation of Denji esp. it is almost complete, structurally taking the form of kink and the parody of care after. Mwah.

With that, the reconciliation of Denji's past and present when his past in debt bondage is also constructed with the societal complicity about domestic violence becomes delicious. Nayuta is reborn out of a cannibalism not really done in the service of personal survival and def not out of a commitment to self sacrificing heroism.

I'm excited for Part 2, Asa esp lets you get at some of the same neuroses Denji has as a teenager but from a gendered perspective. Her relationship with Yuko is some of the strongest bit of writing about bullying and justice I have read in a while. I've enjoyed the lead up to Fami and War's apocalypse so far, but their motivations are still a little inscrutable and fallback on devils, wyd? despite their sisterhood. I think Fujimoto's focus seems to be the public discourses around devils in this arc, so thats probably why it feels like that but I'm personally always interested in all of it.

I totally agree with your take on jjk female characters!! They are not as "groundbreaking" as the fandom says, and Shoko is arguably the most important character, the declining rate of sorcerers would up to the sky if not for her lol her perspective would be interesting

What would be your take on Chainsaw man female characters? csm arcs have more female villains than most shounens— I don't even recall an intregal female villain on JJK but I don't see much analysis on csm female characters on online, it would be great to read a take on them other than bark bark woof

i do have criticisms of csm but i genuinely like the manga bc of how fujimoto embraces the weirdness of the manga he aptly named 'chainsaw man' LOL it's actually something new and refreshing and doesn't only challenge the boundaries of typical shonen conventions but completely rewrites them. it's wild!

also i need to reread chainsawman btw

i think makima’s a good villain, but i don’t think it really makes sense to think of her as a female villain more than just a villain (she’s not even human in the first place) fujimoto has said in an interview that he likes women who can bully him and i’m pretty sure that’s the only reason he made makima a woman in the first place LMAO. that being said ppl have analyzed the gender dynamics taking place between makima and denji and makima grooming denji which i’ve also talked about (basically it deserves more nuance than just calling makima a groomer which she technically is but also makima like....isn’t even human in the first place and also isn’t interested in denji sexually. sex is just a means to end bc it’s what denji wanted) i did enjoy makima as a villain but i definitely wouldn’t consider her female representation (she is a girlboss though) 

as for power i adore her and her relationship with denji and aki and you can tell fujimoto actually put care into her character. i thought she was a really interesting and refreshing character and i ended up caring up about her much more than i thought i would. i think what i really enjoyed was the little to no emphasis on romantic love although there was definitely love between the three. nothing forced or overtly sexual (in my opinion).

i don’t remember much about quanxi other than she’s hot i’d love to join her harem and i think it fucks that she’s canonically one of the if not the strongest characters in csm.

obviously i’d like the female characters to get more development, but I understand the need to focus on the main trio (esp since the manga’s only at part 1??? which i had no idea about LOL) the reason csm works is bc there is a focus on the main trio unlike jjk which has a much larger cast and a constantly switching focus. see i can forgive csm because denji, power, and aki are the main characters, but jjk having female characters in place as mains and still not utilizing them is something i can’t forgive!

🔥🔥🔥🔥 CHAINSAW MAM

CHAINSAW MAN WOOOO (explodes into a million pieces)

damn what can i say about it i am living in a bubble and when i venture into twitter to see memes about new chapters i close my eyes to any actual takes. my makima takes arent even hot the'yre just basic at this point..... hmmmm

oh wait my anime takes LOL okay here we go. the anime is beautiful in a lot of ways don't get me wrong, but it just did not hit for me at all the way rereading the manga does. the Aki v katana man fight/Himeno death & ghost scene was objectively good solid animation... but the emotions just weren't there for me. and i overall found it super disappointing :( i am not on the crazy level of making a petition to remake the anime with a new director and i dont think the CGI parts are terrible like some people dont get me wrong (okay the ghost model with the flat flower texture on her body literally made me laugh in that fight scene. however the parts with the hands crawling forward was fantastic so it balances out) i just... ugh...

if there is anything in specific that fujimoto is a master at it is PANELING 100%!! his art can be hit or miss (esp at the start of csm) due to deadlines but his movie nerd experience has made him fantastic at paneling pages out, knowing how to let things linger or how much page % to give every panel, how to make a scene take up pages of quiet loneliness or the page turns of dread or the way to make things quick and snappy and horrifying in just a moment. i could literally write an essay about his paneling im not joking (i almost did it rn but i would need to show a whole bunch of pages and it would make this post so fucking long for no good reason lol) BUT it means for me seeing these things in the anime gives them such a different vibe it annoys me watching it ! still not the directors fault, its a problem of adapting the medium

oh also the best thing to come out of the anime is 100% the opening and ending animations, absolutely fantastic, i watch them & listen to them all the time (the dogland ending. bow wow baby i love denji !!!!) and i cant wait for some aki themed ones to be made in s2 bc i need to cry over that stupid fuckign snowball fight even more. anyways yeah there is a part of me that hates the anime a little bit </3 animeonlys will die by my hands

something about denji’s inability to understand what he actually needs and how to remove himself from situations that clearly are not for his benefit just because he doesn’t know is genuinely so sad. esp in part ii. i watched this movie called dogtooth last night which was pretty disturbing abt an abusive cultish dad isolating his family from the world. at the very end (spoiler lol) when one of the grown up children finally escape by hiding at the back of the dads car trunk, the very last scene ends with the car leaving and parking where it was the most opportune moment for when anyone else would escape the trunk and run out. but the daughter doesn’t. because she doesn’t know how to do it, she’s never had a reference for anything past that point or how to save herself even when salvation is an inch away….that’s literally what denji is going through.. he may know the idea and concept of being free and having love but aki and power die before they get to unpack that with him. he doesn’t have any of the tools other than the kind of dogged hurt that all animals experience after experiencing bear traps but he doesn’t learn bc no one teaches him. so the cycle of abuse he’s experienced leaves him going back for more every time. cuz he knows nothing else!

your response on chainsaw man was so so good, could i ask you to elaborate on what the manga does with denji about the state of "capitalist normality" that denji keeps aiming for? and also how that ties to kobeni?

Um, thank you!!! cw: canon typical violence, sexual assault and spoilers

Denji is always forced to pay a price for each intimate encounter. All of the women who assault Denji know him through his position as subordinated devil in contract with a Bureau that would kill a Denji that steps out of line. I think the Mura Mura episode in particularly telling, a brand new handler who is technically not even Denji's senior feels like she can do this? Even Asa is introduced to him by Yoshida, which makes it seem pretty much that the government assigned girlfriend is a Bureau ploy, his desire for intimacy being something that the institution knows it can exploit. When he says all these women only want me for my chainsaw heart its a bit on the nose bc its the same thing the Bureau wants him for. The perfect worker that can be turned to shreds and keep working is not enough, bc in him is a power that can transform society (see: Anthy) Like I pointed out before, his "household" is granted to him at the Bureau's behest, from Aki's supervision of him and Power to even Nayuta.

So when you get these repeated invocations of wanting to live a normal life with money and a girlfriend and a job... we know that normal job is very much a barrier to actually achieving happiness. Reze's seduction is quite explicitly premised on splitting from the Bureau!

With Nayuta, Denji treats her life as an opportunity to get another chance at getting normality right, to get into that dreamt up middle class by locating his own problem as not having grown up normal enough to go to school or college. Nayuta wants all of this insofar as Denji wants it for her. So I think Kobeni ties in quite neatly to this because her life is far more normal, in that she isn’t forced into debt slavery but the family is still a site for abuse for her too, so that her brother can go to college! Her choice being between sex work and the bureau makes it clear what work really is, selling your body, despite the relative respectability of devil hunting and its trappings. Her almost disabling fear of death being seen by the fandom as #relatable but also something she is punished in universe for... her pretty normal reactions to a fucked up world push her down that feeding chain anyway!

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, I'm not familiar with Fujimoto's work enough to guess whether he'll chose at the end to concede at the level Kobeni has in universe, which is like normal life sucks and is all we have. But I do think the manga denies that this normality that motivates Denji is achievable, esp now that Asa's apathetic passivity to the possibility is now centred in the manga.