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professoruber · 4 months

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Thoughts and speculation regarding Meridian before Birds of Prey (2023-) #5 drops!

Spoilers for Birds of Prey (2023-)

Please also keep in mind I am a novice when it comes to comics and their lore. I am also tired and writing this in my iPad, so please let me know if I am misremembering or overlooked any details.

Maps Mizoguchi! Or rather, Meridian! A very surprising addition to the latest Birds of Prey series. As someone who is a fan of Gotham Academy, even sometime before I started really becoming interested in comics like I have been recently, this definitely caught my attention and has led me to following this series in interest.

However… currently I have a number of thoughts of Meridian which I would like to get off my chest now before #5 releases and either gives us more questions or (hopefully) more answers.

I suppose my big question thus far is… why Maps in particular? Especially given the fact that her constant departures due to the apparent limitations of her time travel tech means she subsequently has limited ‘screen time’ to justify her involvement. Why was it a time travelling future Maps who kicked off events and not anything else?

I like Maps, but I still have begin to find her role somewhat odd; perhaps in large part due to a simple question it raises….

Is Meridian Maps’ destined future hero persona (instead of Robin)?

Maps wants to be Robin, it’s been a thing since Gotham Academy, and it’s a goal which has been given both some focus and some credit via both the main Batman run and also the non-canon Batman Black and White.

The goal of becoming Robin is one which she was shown to be still determined towards even after experiencing the dangers which would come with the job.

So with this in mind, it seems kinda odd how they’ve also introduced the Meridian persona for Maps. While I do like the name well enough, the fact that it’s a geography term being a neat nod to her nickname, I can’t also help but notice that Meridian… doesn’t really seem to display any of the typical Robin or Bat-related skillsets?

She teleports around and shoots people with lighting, and I’m pretty sure that’s about it. She doesn’t appear to be notably tactical, nor does she display any martial arts (she just points her fist and shoots), which is honestly a tad disappointing. Maybe that’s just me, but I guess it just feels a bit odd.

Cresting such advanced technology also wasn’t exactly something I’d expect from Maps; but tbh she would’ve had plenty of time to learn science as she grew up so… hm.

Does this mean Maps is not going to become Meridian? Maybe?

Possibilities

A very interesting observation and suggest by @transpanda-1 was that Meridian was not in fact Maps Mizoguchi, but rather Katherine Karlo (the blonde girl picture with Maps in the comic snippet a little higher up); the daughter of Clayface. This is based both on uncharacteristic behaviour from Maps herself as well as her departure being described as looking like she is “made of dirt”, a very specific and odd way of describing what would otherwise be assumed by readers to be her disappearing in a flurry of static or energy.

Of course; any oddities, as well as any differences in the behaviours and skillsets of Maps vs Meridian, could be easily justified by the fact Meridian apparently comes from a post apocalyptic future, plus the general effects of aging.

But even still, I do really like this theory and think it makes a decent amount of sense. Especially given the whole “dirt” descriptor.

Katherine Karlo has displayed the ability to be at multiple places at once in the past, seemingly controlling multiple bodies with the same consciousness. She has also impersonated Maps in the past.

However, Katherine appears to be inspired by Annie, a character from BTAS who iirc was a ‘daughter’ Clayface who was created when part of him got separated from his main body and so developed a distinctive identity seperate from the main consciousness. I don’t think Katherine’s backstory has been delved into (correct me if I’m wrong) but I assume it was something similar. Therefore, if she is Meridian then perhaps the reason Meridian keeps disappearing is because maintaining control of a part of her so far away takes a significant amount of effort? Or maybe it is a time travelling Katherine instead?

Hard to say for sure. And also probably doesn’t exactly explain the lighting powers. But tbh I kinda would also kind of prefer this?

Would give Maps more of an opening/hope to still become Robin one day.

Motivations and Answers

This is the final bit of this rather long-ish post which may or may not get totally disproved by #5 tomorrow. But I’ve gotten this far so might as well cap off my thoughts.

If I remember correctly; Meridian is the reason for the general secrecy of this mission, not only from Diana and the other Amazons, but also from Barbara. I feel that big secrets from close allies, especially given Babs’ importance to the Birds of Prey, require big reasons. But from what I can recall we have yet to get any actual look into her reasons… or how she convinced Dinah for that matter (it’s not as if Maps Mizoguchi is some close confidant of hers, I doubt they’ve met before this).

If Meridian is a time traveler then perhaps she’s already attempted this mission via other methods which have failed, hence the reason for specific exclusions this time around?

Or maybe this is an evil future/alternate self kind of deal. I don’t think Meridian has acted overly suspicious apart from this secrecy but it’s still possible. At the very least, she may not have been entirely upfront with all her plans/motive/knowledge.

For all we know, maybe Barbara is involved and pulling the strings for whatever reason? Maybe not, but still.

I guess the reason I’m thinking on this is I feel excluding Barbara and causing a “hero vs hero” conflict seems like the kinds of things which require a very good reason for. And Dinah presumably found said reasoning quite convincing since she went along with it.

If Meridian isn’t from the future, then that just adds further mystery since it means for some reason Katherine Karlo (or someone pulling her strings) has posed as a future version of Maps to direct the Birds of Prey in a mission to rescue Sin. Why all this deception would be needed is another question (assuming she’s not from the future, anyway).

Conclusions

Let’s start wrapping things up. Despite my confusion/semi-complaints, I’ve generally enjoyed Birds of Prey so far and am looking forward to seeing how the story continues. I also am a fan of Maps and am curious at what kind of role she will have as this fort continues, and I also hope she gets her overall dream of becoming Robin one day.

Maps would make an awesome Robin.

For now I guess we shall see whether #5 provides any answers, and if it does then we’ll see if my random speculation and thoughts were off the mark or not,

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tacosandtomcos · 4 years

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Honestly, I get why people are upset about how the shipping was handled in season 4, but seriously, why are people so triggered over kellco? They were literally nothing but a rebound ship. Neither of the characters took actual romantic interest until Tad left Kelly and Star was with Tom coincidentally. And I mean, they straight up called themselves "Break-up-Buddies".. clearly nothing good was going to come out of that.

Well, kellco was seen a little more then that.

I mean, this was a ship that had been going on and had setup for at least 2 seasons? I mean not as heavily as jarco was but still.

While Marco was dealing with the fact star was with someone else, it became clear he and kelly were starting to connect and become friends who were supporting each other through these rough times.

And a lot of people actually liked the idea of that, that these two unlikely characters going through struggles that were similar started bonding and realizing they had a lot in common.

After LLB it became obvious to the audience kelly and marco were hanging out a lot more offscreen, they hang out in monster bash, kell is implied to like marco in the holiday special, they clearly seemed to go to the wedding together in BB as almost like the other’s date (though that’s more implied then anything), marco even considers kelly to be one of the first people he calls to help with meteora….

the show doesn’t lean on them like it did with other ships, but people could clearly tell marco and kelly were having a budding friendship/romance going on, and i think people liked the fact it stemmed from these characters supporting each other through their romance issues and bonding over time.

not to mention, this was one of the few things marco had that didn’t make him so star-constant.

Marco lacked much of his own personal relationships or hobbies or plots that weren’t extremely rooted to star. Marco lost karate, school, his earth relationships mainly, any of his self discovery episodes.

He barely was in s3 unless he was in the romance plot, or doing stuff for star.

Having him have this new friendship with kelly where they support each other and have marco deal with his emotions and where marco seemed to have someone he hung out with regularly outside of mostly star and tom and that entire love triangle was probably a breath of fresh air.

And this was a thing with kelly, kelly herself seemed to be implied to be having a rough time dealing with her past relationship and the show treats her chance with marco as a chance for her to finally move on and be with someone who really understands her.

Kelly’s not the most detailed and explored character but the fact they spent so much time on focusing on the fact these two were hanging out and there was some romance blooming between them, and then just instantly cut it off for no reason kinda sucks.

In ways i think people liked seeing marco with someone who shared his love of martial arts, and sword fighting, and adventures because while star kinda liked that in s1, her character is flipped a lot in s3 and 4 and it kinda seems more like kelly and marco just end up having a lot more in common.

If jackie was perfect to marco as his opposite, her chill personality working well with his safe-kid persona and worried character.

Kelly was perfect in the almost opposite direction, having a lot in common with him and matching his interests and the two of them bringing out each other’s wilder sides.

Star used to almost be an opposite, but then she got more serious and marco got more wild, and marco just seemed to mostly go on his own adventures, without her.

And the two had things in common in earlier seasons, not all that much in later ones, they don’t really hang out much tbh cause there are more episodes with star dealing with eclipsa and other matters.

in summary here i think kelly just seemed to really compliment the character marco was at the time, and people really liked the direction the show seemed to be taking with it.

like these two characters forming a friendship and support group with each other, and moving on from their heartbreak to find they like each other? That’s wholesome and would’ve been wholesome to see in the show-

-if they had sticked with it.

people are triggered over kellco because the show spent it’s focus on this relationship and building this budding relationship built on support for each other through rough times….and then ended it for no reason.

like even if it was in the bg mostly, it was still a relationship the show put focus on, they even had an entire episode to get them together.

And then ended it? Without a real reason why?

Kelly and Marco’s relationship was built on support for each other and marco just goes off and ends it? Leaving Kelly once again, sad and alone and clearly heartbroken despite marco KNOWING how tad made her feel? And then they just ignore it and pretend it didn’t matter when they clearly tried to make it matter?

Marco knows how much kelly had been hurt over the tad situation and he knows how much their relationship meant to kelly to help her deal with it and move forward, and no, he doesn’t owe it to her to be with her if he doesn’t want to…..but he DID want to!

Marco actively said he didn’t really want to have feelings for star because they were in the way of these new ones for kelly. He wanted to move on and he wanted to be there to support her….expect somewhere offscreen he changed his mind.

He never interacts with kelly again after the breakup btw, their entire friendship/relationship basically goes poof and neither of them talk about it again.

I mean, the fact star and marco’s other relationships are almost treated like nothing in comparison to their own is it’s own issue, but kellco is a prime example of it.

Spent a long time on this relationship, these two are supposibly close, then after they break up marco pretty much pretends all that time we spent with him and kelly and the friendship they had meant little to him.

Doesn’t even worry when she’s on her deathbed.

Same thing with Tom, where the writers try and pretend these relationships we spent seasons on meant nothing to star and marco and we should only care about their relationship.

Having star and marco give a heck about these other relationships we spent so much time on would probably make them seem less selfish, but nah, kelly is gone forever in her own dimension? Who cares about the fact we were friends with her and she’s gone forever, we get to date now.

Breaking them up like they did removed all the good merit the show was trying to preach with their friendship.

Moving on is a thing that doesn’t seem to exist in this show as long as it’s keeping the main couple apart.

You have these episodes showing that it’s healthy for star and marco to accept they should move on for their betterment and it all entirely goes to waste because they end up together regardless because neither does move on.

And this is another thing.

Kelly had nothing to do much when she wasn’t with marco.

and like, this is the same problem jackie had, but at least the show didn’t have jackie almost presented like a main character.

They presented kelly as a main character by s3 and by the end, they did nothing with her outside of her and marco’s relationship, which again, they scrapped randomly.

And kelly just never does anything after, she’s basically gone, just like jackie was, because as soon as a character is done dating star or marco they’re useless to the crew apparently and their relationships no longer matter to them.

Kelly wasn’t the deepest or most developed character, but a lot of people were attached to her, liked her relationship with marco, it would understandably piss them off to see the crew give this girl so much attention all of a sudden…

only to immediately remove her and all importance she may of had just to get starco together.

And this isn’t mentioning the fact that kellco didn’t need to exist in the first place, they didn’t develop any characters because marco goes right back to pinning over star and who knows with kelly, they didn’t have a function on the plot directly, didn’t serve to make star or anyone jealous.

It’s a relationship they spent time on, only to go nowhere with, it really had no reason to happen at all and if it was just to make kellco shippers happy….well i think they would’ve rather had no ship then the crew randomly ending the relationship quickly after and pretending it didn’t exist.

by itself, kelly’s world is a cute episode, but it’s so disappointing to see they have it and then pretend it didn’t matter at all.

why did they take so much time to get them together and focus on them if they were just going to break it off after the fact?

It’s easy to be like “Oh, they were rebounds, who cares, it didn’t matter”

Clearly that’s not how everyone felt.

it seemed pretty obvious to people kellco felt like an opportunity for two characters to move on with their lives and find happiness in each other, because that’s literally how their relationship is presented several times in the series.

and with all the focus this relationship had the last thing people wanted was to see this rather wholesome relationship just be tossed aside for starco, especially since it’s entire message rode on both parties being together and getting over starco.

Kellco made people mad because:

It has no reason to exist by the end

It wastes a character they didn’t care enough about to get any resolution with marco

all the goodwill it had is removed by getting rid of it for starco

the show spent time on a relationship they ended without giving any reason for it to end

it was something entirely wholesome that people enjoyed watching because it was a step away from all this romance drama and gave marco character outside of star, and the show decided to destroy it and make marco so star-centered he seemed to lack any character or ambition or anything outside of her anymore

There’s nothing more hurtful then a show making you care about something and making you feel like it mattered and then tossing it away and spitting on it.

#star vs the forces of evil #svstfoe #svtfoe #kellco

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unordinary-analysis · 4 years

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Episode 173

Honorable Mentions:

PSA (I keep repeating in every recent post sorry) this greatly relies upon things I’ve said in previous episode analyses especially for episode 167 where I go most in depth about John and his inner battles (his fake personality vs. his old one). (seach “#episode 167” on my page). My recent post “John’s “fake” self,” though kind of extreme, is good too but please read the reprise I just posted on that.

Finally I’ve been able to create a concept that holds up both in my mind and in the story and that I find myself sticking to, and then this whole issue of having to explain it every post appears…

This comes off as annoying self-promotion and I’m aware of that, but I just really value reader comprehension uishiuskjh

When I refer to John’s “fake” self/side, I don’t mean it’s actually completely false, it’s just easier to differentiate his two sides that way. One side is John’s dominant nature, his “evil” side (I call this “dark, evil, and true” side) and the other side is John’s “good” side (I call this “fake, false, fabricated” to emphasize the idea that it’s “borrowed” in a way/not really ‘from John himself.’ I explain this a lot in the actual post though lmao im kinda redundant

Do new people even read my posts? I feel like they’re too bulky for a new follower to commit to reading… lmao. If so, this post really isn’t helping

John asking Sera why she didn't take him for a drink or on a walk to talk to him like they haven’t been avoiding each other for like a month sends. When even is the last time you got drinks with Sera, John.

Sera keeps bringing up stuff for the first time in the comic and its great

How thick are these school’s walls istg it’s like every other episode that one of the characters is yelling at another in one of these classrooms smh

I recently had the thought to go back to watch the progression of the ratio of John’s text bubbles changing from white to black in each episode as a sort of scale/timeline of how John’s dark side is overpowering his good one. But then I didn’t…

I want to talk about Sera’s mention of UnOrdinary the book so much, but this is too long and I don’t know what I would say

Word choice is hard :(

Lot of redundancy in this one that's what I get for going in chronological order

Favorite words of the day apparently: “obviously, “we’ll get to that later”, and further”

This doesn’t have a title because instead of breaking this into multiple sections like I normally would, this episode is only one scene plus the things I want to talk about are kind of intertwined. So you get this mega post.

I actually wasn’t too keen on the confrontation being limited to a single episode because usually I feel, it seems very crammed to read and just usually doesn’t resonate, but I thought this episode was actually amazing. I was so well entertained throughout and the conversation didn’t just “happen” you know? That was probably because the episode was a little longer than it normally would be, at least I think it was. It felt like it.

Anyways, this is still in chronological order, so let’s start at the beginning.

The first thing I want to talk about is how this episode starts off. John and Seraphina are alone in a room together, and John has on his wide, innocent (, fake) smile. And I know that was kind of expected due to him still trying to sell the whole harmless cripple thing to Seraphina, but it really struck me right off the bat because of much it stood out to me (love the repetition). John’s fake personality has been in use less and less in the comic recently because he hasn’t been interacting with Sera as much who really is the last person that he puts it on for anymore. This absence of John’s false innocence has dissolved my immunity to it and for the first time in a long time, I feel like I’m recognizing just how different the two sides of John are. When I would see it every chapter, I got used to it and became numb to the constant switches back and forth by John, but the heavy focus put on his more darker side recently has changed that.

This can also be taken into the context of that slow progression from the fake John to the old John that I’ve been talking about since my analysis for episode 161. Like I said, before I was used to both of John’s faces, and the fact that we have seen so little of his fake persona recently alludes to the thought that, just like it reflects on screen, there is less and less of that side to John left. Brief disclaimer: this sounds kind of dumb if you don’t understand my context. I have been in this continuous explanation of John’s two sides (fake personality that I just talked about and true personality shown recently by Joker and previously by New Bostin John) being in an ongoing battle with one another, a battle that is very much so one-sided as it is already established that the real John will win because John’s anchors to his fake side are slowly disappearing. That probably made some sense if you’ve never read one of my posts before, but if you don’t understand me even a little, please look at the honorable mentions. It is important to everything I talk about in this episode.

Anway, like I said, this is the first thing in this episode that points to this concept, and we’re only on like the third panel.

Something else that we get teased for in the beginning of the episode is John still putting effort into displaying this fake persona because in this episode, Seraphina does not even once smile back at him or display anything warmer than a deadpan expression (maybe later, but not right now). His immediate reaction is to still act so cheery and motivated. I will be honest though, this is only for a while though because he does start to show frustration and similar emotions while still trying to keep Seraphina believing in his created self, but more on that later. Anyway, the main idea this is hinting at is that John is clinging to his false personality as best he can and the easiest way to do that is through extremity. By showing more negative emotions, he is risking accidently slipping out of character, which would not only lose Sera (makes sense now, but will make more sense later), but also something else, which is why his go to with Sera is that over the top smile, that wouldn’t be naturally appropriate for a serious conversation that is obviously about to happen. More on that later too.

More recently, I made a post about what I refer to as John’s “fake” self, and I explain there how Seraphina is an anchor and draw of goodness for John. Him trying his best to put that goodness forward and project it onto her in not only this episode, but every episode, really shows how much he relies upon her because, as I said a bit ago, she is the only person he really does this for. When John is with Seraphina, he tries to get the most out of the person he’s forced to become.

This chronological order is already getting on my nerves, sorry about that. This might be a hard post to follow. Anyway, if you take two of the ideas I talked about in the previous paragraphs and put them together, they connect into the next thing I want to say. My statements “there is less and less of that[fake] side to John left” and “John is clinging to his false personality as best he can” lead into my next point, which is supported by the first outburst of the episode (there’s a lot). And I’ve also said this in previous posts. John doesn’t want to be overcome by his evil, past self. John doesn’t want to lose the person he created to hide behind, his fake self, because once that image of himself is shattered (haha get it) the only person left is John’s true, hidden self. All we will have left is the dark side of John. Obviously because John created this fake personality for himself, he doesn’t like the person he really is and attempted to overcome it, defeat it. But his attempt is experiencing exponential failure (for reasons I’ve kind of said before and will explain in this post) and his dark side is corrupting him again, slowly but surely taking over. Again, I repeat, John does not want this. John is scared of himself. This is one of the reasons why, whenever he can, John takes the opportunity to deny the progression being made by his evil side. This is why, when Seraphina tells him that she knows John is Joker and there’s basically nothing he can say to make her not believe that, John says, “How many times do I have to say it? I’m not Joker!” This internal refusal to accept that he is Joker (evil) is what I was referring to literally a second ago when I said that by slipping out of his fake personality, John would be losing Sera, but also something else (I swear I thought it would take me longer to get to this). That “something else” would be his belief that there is any good in him at all. Let me explain. Because dark John’s takeover is inevitable and we can recognize that he makes up most of John’s mind currently, if John switches to his dark side now, it would basically represent the defeat of his fabricated (“good”) self. A quote of mine from my analysis from episode 161 is, “By denying that Joker is himself, John is in part saying that Joker isn’t the only thing that makes up John.” The moment John stops denying that he is Joker to himself, he admits that he is wholly evil, and you’ll have to wait a second for a full explanation on this. In John’s mind, his two sides are very black and white: his past self (evilness) and his new one, (goodness). This is exemplified in his previous flashbacks to New Bostin and their contrast to his daily life. The colors used, the words used. Very good vs. evil, hero vs. villain. And it’s meant to be. It’s one or the other. Anyway, as long as John denies that he is fully old John, fully evil John, he is saying that there has to be some left of the other side (good) in him. (usually it isn’t this black and white but I hope I literally just explained how he sees it as so. For John, it really is one or the other).

A very important aspect of this whole thing, this whole denial, however, is actually in who he’s with. Seraphina’s presence in this scene is very influential, as I’m trying to stress. Her image, to John, is a symbol of his goodness, which I’ve said earlier in this post (briefly), but first in my analysis for episode 161, and even more so in my recent post “John’s “Fake” Self.” John draws his “good” (what I refer to as “fake”) side Seraphina because he doesn’t want to risk trying to get it from himself (because he’s scared of himself). Anyway, I said in the beginning of this post that by showing his evil side to Seraphina, he would lose her. And beyond the obvious, which is that she would hate him for it and leave, there’s also the reason that because Sera is where John tends to get his goodness from, by showing her his evil self, by admitting he is joker (what I talked about more recently), John would be exposing himself as completely evil (already explained this line of thinking). This would mean he doesn’t have any goodness (aka Sera) in him, or that Sera would have somehow lost her own goodness as well, which is something that I just thought of, so I’m not sure if I’ll expand. I’m still thinking. Anyway, John doesn’t want to fully be evil, or at least doesn’t want Sera to know, which is why this all has a more symbolic meaning. And why this episode is so polarizing for John. This is a confrontation between what he considers his goodness and what he considers his evilness.

Next in the episode, when John says a second later, “Hello? It’s me, John! I’m a cripple! I don’t have an ability! I like going out for drinks, and hanging out on the roof, and exercising, and playing games! Sure, I act like a smart-ass and it gets me in trouble sometimes…! But have you seen the kind of shit Joker has done? That’s not me,” this supports my statements that John is clinging to his fake self, that he does view his Joker side as his “evil” side (old statement, but confirmation is nice), and that he will keep denying himself as Joker to not become him fully.

Anyway, the next thing really shown in this episode is when John grabs Seraphina and begs for her to believe him. Specifically he says, “Everyone else can think I’m shit. But you have to believe in me! PLEASE!” Another nod to his obsession with Seraphina and my concept of her as the source of his good. This is just kind of repeating what I’ve already said, just in a very extreme and eye-catching way so I wanted to say something about it.

This back and forth that the chronological order is putting me in is not it.

Now we get to the part where Seraphina validates me :). John finishes his plea to her with, “I’m not Joker. I’m not a monster, okay?” To which Sera responds (in her head), “”Monster”? Why is he acting like this? Is he really still trying to convince me? Or… Is he trying to convince himself?” This is the first time an UnOrdinary character has brought this idea up. Sera is probably the only character to have been in such a situation with John, though. Anyway, the concept that John is trying to convince himself of his own goodness has largely only been used in my own episode analyses rather than the actual comic (lol). I’ve already talked about it in this post, but it’s been a common theme for me throughout my last 10 posts or so. Seraphina thinking this same thing herself confirms the importance of the idea. John’s denial of himself as Joker is just as much for his sake as it is for Sera’s, likely even more. I said all of this up above when I talked specifically about his denial of himself as Joker, but the direct confirmation from the comic made me happy.

When Seraphina tells John that she knows about what happened at New Bostin, it’s significance is more grounded than these mind games I’ve been talking about up until now, thank god. I can never tell when I go too far… This can still be taken into that context, but I want to talk about a different aspect, because I would just be repeating myself from earlier if we talked about all that again. Anyway, when Seraphina says, “John, I already know everything… New Bostin, your expulsion, how you’re secretly a high-tier... “ John has a very extreme reaction, instantly throwing himself back into those flashbacks to New Bostin. He sees himself as the monster he was then now paired with the knowledge that Seraphina knows all about it too.

The aspect of the story I want to talk about is one of my favorites :D. Parallels! The parallels between John’s past and his present are absolutely phenomenal and I love them. And they’ve been growing a lot more ‘in your face’ as of the more recent episodes. Some examples are when John and Seraphina fought off that fake joker in the hall that one time and also that one scene between Cecile and John where John got all pissed off at Seraphina. That probably made no sense to you, but I talk about it a lot in my analyses for episodes 161 and 167 so….. I don’t know what to tell you lol. Anyways, with my analyses, I’ve been pushing the concept that John is becoming more and more unable to differentiate both events and people from his past and his present. My main evidence for this is that John’s flashbacks have been pairing up with details from the current storylines. In my analysis for episode 167, I say, “John’s flashbacks are making it so that John cannot separate the present from the past. He cannot exist at Wellston without his subconscious relating everything that is happening to what happened to John at New Bostin.” I also talk about what this means for his relationships with the other characters who go to school with him currently, especially Seraphina. Here are two quotes that are, again, both from my analysis of episode 167: “This episode’s flashbacks to Claire and situations revolving around her and the comparison to current events revolving around Seraphina, and especially the outburst by John at her; they all suggest that John doesn’t see Seraphina as her own person anymore, maybe that he never has.”... “It’s become clear that John is, currently at least, viewing Seraphina as another Claire.” My whole support of this is because of Seraphina resembling Claire in the events of episode 161 cueing John’s flashbacks of her, but more importantly (at the moment): how John, when told about Sera and Arlo meeting behind his back, has automatic flashbacks to Claire’s betrayal and seemingly takes his anger at Claire out at Seraphina.

So, basically, Claire was John’s best friend, but then she went behind his back because of his evil actions to secretly recruit their other classmates to defeat him. I know anyone reading this post should know that, but I wanted to mention it because of how startlingly similar this is to how John is viewing his current situation with Seraphina. Sera was John’s best friend, yet she’s been drifting away from him, and according to Cecile, she has even met with Arlo behind John’s back. I’ve talked about all of this before (I think? I don’t really remember lol). Anyway, the developments that this episode adds to this parallel, this comparison, are quite substantial. Both Seraphina telling John that she knows he is Joker and that she knows about the events of New Bostin further push this concept of her and Claire’s similarity, which in turn encourages John’s mental association of the two characters and his inability to differentiate between the past and the present.

Seraphina telling John that she knows he is Joker is adding to the similarity between the storyline at New Bostin and the storylines at Wellston. As I described in my brief summary of Claire’s buildup and betrayal, Claire turned against John because she realized how horrible he’d become. This is why we have the infamous one-liner, “monster,” from Claire. Claire’s entire motivation for turning against and leaving John was that she saw how corrupted and twisted he was becoming and wanted to put her other classmates’ suffering to an end. Now, there’s a bit of bias here on John’s part, as I do not believe he truly grasps that Claire only wanted him put out of power/authority (which was what corrupted him in the first place). I think John just thinks that Claire couldn’t stand the person he was and what he was doing, and that attempting to defeat him was purely a retaliation without an end goal and less of the logical decision and mission it was (to dethrone him). I think Keon’s classes really pushed this into John’s head, actually, because they were so focused on enforcing the fact that John was a monster. He became overwhelmed with that idea of himself as a monster and assumed everyone else was too. (The last few sentences have awful word choice and consequently worse comprehensiveness, but it is what it is). Anway, back on track, because John thinks that when people discover what a “monster” he is, they go behind his back and plan attacks. Now, because Sera has admitted knowing of John’s past/his identity of Joker, which are the most obvious examples of the “monster” in John paired with her having recently gone behind his back to talk to Arlo about John, her actions are obviously mirroring the buildup at New Bostin for John. Something else that’s big in this episode, is the later panel of Seraphina and Claire overlapping each other says, “monster.” This is both a support for what I’ve been saying and its own separate addition. With Seraphina now playing Claire’s part, this is going to further John’s association and muddlement of his past and his present.

There will be a lot more of this later in this post though, so stay tuned.

I do realize that without the confusing explanation of John’s difference in view regarding the events of New Bostin in comparison to Claire’s was kind of useless, I just included that because it really emphasized the comparison to this episode particularly, which is what this post is about lol.

Next in the episode, we get the creepiest panel of John drawn ever. You know the one. I first saw that and was stunned. Anway, normally that would go in honorable mentions, but come on.

Moving on, we have finally reached the turning point for this post, for this episode, and for the entire comic of UnOrdinary lmao. Early on in this post I said, “John doesn’t want to lose the person he created to hide behind, his fake self, because once that image of himself is shattered (haha get it) the only person left is John’s true, hidden self.” And, besides me still laughing because of that, it really helps me explain what’s happening here.

Currently, we are at the panels of the episode where John is seeing an image of his created self, aka L for loser John, aka hair gel John, splintering and shattering like glass. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out what this means. Everything I’ve been talking about for a while. Not only this post, but for many posts in the past, is finally completely itself.

This is the final takeover of the dark side of John. I’ve always talked about this gradual battle between good and evil within John where the evil side is going to inevitably win and this is that. Most of this episode has been me saying stuff like ‘if this happens, it will mean that John has truly lost himself and is completely evil.’ And that’s where we’re at now. All of that has happened, okay? It’s time to abandon everything I’ve been saying recently because it’s in the past now.

Which is why, we see that completion of Seraphina and Claire becoming mirrors of each other in John’s mind. Throughout the rest of the episode there is obvious molding of the two, more so than ever before. So much so that I can’t really call my ideas on this topic an idea because they’re proved correct. John is blatantly viewing Sera as Claire now, and it’s meant to be understood by the reader because of the constant switches between the two from frame to frame. The concept of John’s anger at Claire being targeted and associated with Seraphina also makes a comeback. I am confident enough now to say that it is confirmed in the comic that John cannot fully differentiate Seraphina and Claire’s characters from one another.

Even the whole idea that John cannot fully differentiate his past and present as wholes gets extreme support, though not exactly enough for me personally to say that it is confirmed. After the “shattering”(I like that, might keep that), John instantly attacks Seraphina with accusations of going behind his back and why even when Seraphina kept telling him that she was in no way taking sides, only collecting the facts, John repeatedly told her that she was abandoning “his side.” These are obviously things that happened at New Bostin, and though it fits into the more set in stone Sera vs. Claire comparison, I am using it to support this more overall idea of present vs. past. But the best support for that past vs present thing is in this episode when Seraphina says, “You’re repeating everything you did at New Bostin!” That line is very self-explanatory, I feel. Also, the fact that it’s one of the characters saying this, makes me pretty confident that this is true.

I have now decided to call this turning point in UnOrdinary “The Shattering” because of both John’s and Seraphina’s uses of the concept. So, that’s fun. And it also leads into the next thing in the episode: Seraphina’s personal shattering.

Seraphina is always a more grounded character than John and it’s kind of refreshing turning my analysis onto her because she makes more logical sense. In this episode, Seraphina really lets loose at John about everything she’s been through because of him and even uses the phrase, “My whole world shattered.” She expresses how she feels like she’s been lied to about everything for such a long time (which she obviously has) and how to figure out what parts of both her relationship with John and even her own personality are true. It’s a very passionate and straightforward moment and I do feel like I tend to overlook Seraphina in analysis when it comes to focus, probably because there’s more to analyze with John, but I do feel like while reading this episode, my focus was really split between the characters.

Seraphina has completely changed as a person since she met John. Mostly, in fact, because she met John. Upon learning that he isn’t who he says he is, she’s met with this inevitable question of ‘how much of my personality, of myself, is also built upon lies.’ John largely influenced the changes in Seraphina and if that wasn’t true, what does that mean for her.

I’ve talked about this before in my analysis for episode 162, so I don’t really have much to say because unlike John, I pretty much have the same feeling for Sera as I did then.

The real development in this episode, however, was obviously that, “Sera you’re just a cripple,” from John. That completely broke Seraphina. I know that she knew that he was faking his whole personality before, or at least most of it, but I think this is when she really takes that in fully. Before John said that, Sera even said, “This isn’t you, John. Something happened at New Bostin that you haven’t opened up about.” This really conveys the message that Sera still believes in part that John didn’t completely fake himself, or even that she’s in denial, but when John harshly mocked her for being a cripple, which is probably the thing most opposite what Sera could imagine the John she knew doing, she completely just collapsed into herself. Like she said, her whole world was shattered. We get this whole flashback collection of John that Seraphina knew and it’s almost like he’s died in a way and been replaced by this fake, but it’s even worse because that’s who he was this entire time.

So then she hits him at the end so i'm kind of really wanting to read the next episode now so I’m putting this up now, over an hour after the new episode came out. ;-; r.i.p..

#i apologize to the people that actual read these things #its too bulky #unordinary #webtoon #uru-chan #uno #official #episode 173 #unordinary webtoon

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heddo-pewpewpew-gudbye · 5 years

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Hey can you talk about what it is like for you to be a core 4 and an ENTP? Cuz core 4s are said to be so protective of their emotions forming the basis for their significant identity, setting them aside from others I want to know how NeTi works with a 4 core.

Oh cool, my first ask!

I honestly don’t know how to answer this, but I’ll do my best. I guess I’ll just try to explain who I am (?) in the abstract and hope that’s good enough.

I mean, I’ve always typed as a lot of different things MBTI wise, but I figured out ENTP based on how my life has worked out in the big picture: when I was a kid, I was a really energetic kid, but I was always playing in an imaginative way, and loved to immerse myself in different worlds. As I grew up I became a lot more logical and withdrawn, and was quite the nerd, especially in middle school. Around the end of high school to now (middle of college) I’m starting to become a lot more social and getting good at it, and I kind of get the whole “ExTP being manipulative” thing (and perhaps more importantly I had started consciously caring what people thought of me to an extent that was probably unhealthy. I was flooded with a deep necessity to care about other people’s feelings/what others thought of me and I just didn’t know how to deal with it). Even though I’m not doing it with malicious intent, I’m beginning to instinctively understand how to act to get people to like me. Another thing that makes sense for me being an ENTP is the way I loop Ne-Fe and I definitely grip Si, I become super withdrawn and just watch sitcoms until I pass out. Personality Hacker has a diagram about your different functions and how you should use them based on their position and it really helped me realize I need to start using Ti in social situations and only use Fe with people I’m comfortable with or if I’m already using Ne and and Ti in a healthy way.

I really think the best way to type yourself is to look at how you’ve developed in the long term over the years. @confusedinfj has a good post about how kids of different main functions act, and I really do think that your main function shows up when you’re a toddler. Something else I’ve noticed is that you tend to consciously focus on your next developing function. When I was developing into my Ti stage I was really focused on reading and learning as much as I could. When I started to develop my Fe later on, I really focused on figuring out how to socialize and where I fit into the world, and as much as I hate to admit it what I did that people liked and didn’t like, having good hygiene and getting a good body, etc. It’s weird, but it seems to me that when you’re in a certain stage you start developing the next function by consciously focusing on it and eventually it just becomes a part of you (this is all anecdotal of course, so I suppose some people may disagree).

Now as for your actual question, I’m not sure how being a 4 fits into all of this, so I guess I’ll just list the reasons I felt like it makes sense. First and foremost, when I took the keys2cognition test my Fi was off the charts, and I found this really weird:

Furthermore, when I read the type description for INFP both on his website and 16 personalities, it did ring true in a weird way. Now, I know most people will say you shouldn’t trust the tests and I 100% agree, so I’m really just saying this to show my journey of figuring out what I think is my being a type 4.

Secondly, I took the RHETI enneagram test from the Enneagram Institute and got a type 4 much higher than other options:

What was crazy about this one was how it explained the way I act with people I get too close to down to a tee: I have a REALLY bad habit of idealizing people, getting really close to them, and then when I’m around them too long little things about them start to annoy the bejeezus out of me and I start to avoid them (I know it’s really shitty and I’ve been working on it). Also, isolation is how this type gets away from their problems and it’s definitely what I do.

The last thing that sort of helps the idea along is that I did some career services evaluations to determine what field I should go into and one of the tests I took was the Clifton Strengths assessment. You have to pay for it but it’s actually extremely helpful, at least in my experience; it basically tells you what your top strengths are. My number 1 strength was individualization: basically I can look st myself and others and determine what their good at, what their bad at, their aspirations, worst fears, etc. and this makes me really good at team building and such. It explained why I love self-discovery and MBTI and all this personality stuff despite most ENTPs probably not really caring.

I would say some miscellaneous reasons that I think I’m a type 4 have to do with how I understand Enneagram to work with MBTI: I think MBTI is how a person operates, and Enneagram is what DRIVES them, or is the “why” behind the “how” of MBTI. For me, I definitely seem to operate in an ENTP way, and when it comes down to functions an how they work together they seem to make sense for me. Besides this though, other ENTP stuff is very unlike me. For instance, I’m always trying to define myself, and take pride in my own originality; maybe less so trying to be unique, but more so trying to figure out who I am and separate myself from the rest of the pack and be the greatest version of myself so to speak. Another good example is how I play video games. Other ENTPs seem to enjoy video games for letting themselves take on different personas and try different things, and I do this to an EXTENT. The reality though is that I’m trying to figure out who I am the whole time, and I want to do this in order to be able to discover and define myself. For instance, I love Skyrim, but if I ever create a character who does things like murder innocent people, steals, etc. I have to design the character as some other person; when I create a character as myself, I have to follow my own moral code (even though it’s a damn video game) or else I feel icky. Actually, to be completely honest, I feel this way even if it’s just because my character isn’t what I would imagine I would be like in that world. I always feel gross when I’m playing and maybe I’ll try to use a sword and shield for a while but the whole time I’m just like “this ISNT ME” and it bothers me a lot. Idk I guess it always comes back to wanting to really discover who I am and trying to define myself so that I can discover what makes me special and use it to live my best life. It’s just like I have this constant subconscious drive to figure out who I am and be myself like doing so can allow me to overcome any obstacle.

I hope this is what you wanted, I kinda just took what you said loosely and ranted. Feel free to ask more questions (also I hope I’m doing this right since it’s my first ask 🙃). I know there’s Enneagram/MBTI purists out there that say only certain MBTI types can fit into certain Enneagrams, and perhaps they’re right too. I’m still on what I guess you could call my “journey of self-discovery” and what’s more important to me than being right is getting it right, so I’d love to hear anyone’s two cents on the subject.

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