I just realized I only really enjoy writing romance on an asymptote anymore. Infinitely approaching but never quite reaching it. Only ever almost, never touching.

I have been seeing all your posts about the importance of a redemption arc, and how it is ridiculous to hate on them. AND it reminded me of a saying/quote that I heard some pastor say, "If you deserve forgiveness then you wouldn't need ask for it. He also went on talk about how forgiveness isn't a testament to the 'sinners' character, but rather the individual who forgave. It is a very christian perspective, but I still believe that there is value in it. Thoughts?

I want to be clear that I dont think that murder or patricide is forgivable, or that it is up to others to forgive Kylo Ren. I know that the star wars fandom or characters probably never will. I dont think I will. Thats alright. Yet a redemption and forgiveness are intertwined. Redemption requires an individual to understand that they must devote themselves to atonement. Even if they never will, or dont want to be forgiven. That act of commitment necessitates some element of forgiveness. (2/3)

Exact quote(sorry for the spam), “If forgiving someone was easy then they wouldn’t need to be forgiven”. SO if redemption was easy then they wouldn’t need redemption. (3/3)

Don’t be sorry! I honestly could talk about redemption arcs all day.

The thing about redemption arcs is that we (as in, people, individuals) need them in our stories. Metas have been written on this subject by people much more eloquent than anything I can say, but here are my two-cents: redemption arcs are analogous with hope. Hope that things can get better, hope that we can (at least try to) fix the things we’ve done wrong. If redemption can happen to a character who murdered a bunch of people - his own father, in Kylo Ren’s case - then that tells us that the same can happen for us. After all, most of us haven’t murdered people. And if a character who has done that many wrongs can make it right, then so can we. Redemption arcs are the hope that things can get better.

That being said (and finally getting to part of your question), the flip-side of our need for redemption is that it absolutely does need to be difficult, both as a concept and in reality. It must be. To achieve redemption - it can’t be earned, not really - a person has to work for it. They have to want it enough to tears their fingers bloody as they claw their way to towards it. And perhaps ‘achieve’ isn’t quite the word, because it’s not like there’s some sort of finish line to cross before a character is suddenly ‘redeemed,’ but it’s the closest approximation that I can come up with off the top of my head.

I think you’re absolutely correct when you say that redemption requires an understanding, a commitment to making themselves better. And I think you’re also right when you say that redemption wouldn’t even be needed if it was easy. It wouldn’t. If things were so easy to overcome it would leave us entirely unsatisfied, both on a narrative and an emotional level. Narratively, it wouldn’t make any sense. Characters don’t just go “oh, hey, you did some bad things, but you know what? You apologized, so it’s all good.” That’s just (very) bad writing, and no one would do that in real life. Which is why it would emotionally unsatisfying, as well. In these stories that can also say something about our lives, they have to carry that kernel of truth to them. Real-life ‘redemption’ is hard, and we want our stories to reflect the same.

But, of course, redemption is not the same as forgiveness. And, actually, I don’t think that forgiveness has to come from redemption. Not really. Yes, redemption and forgiveness are intertwined. We want the characters who are redeemed to be forgiven on some level (well - most of us do). But even if Kylo Ren decides to reject the dark side and spends the rest of the trilogy fighting for the Good Guys, no one would be required to forgive him in any way by the end. Stories don’t usually go like that, usually there’s at least one character that forgives, but there’s no absolute requirement. He could get to the end of ep9 and be redeemed yet unforgiven. That all depends on the rest of the characters.

This is where I think Kylo Ren’s redemption would shine a good light on the characters like Rey, Leia, and Finn (and finally, finally we are here. We are at your original question). Because redemption arcs have the potential to lift up the characters around the redeemed. I actually really liked the thing you heard from that Pastor, the lesson about redemption being about the one doing the forgiving, as well. (I also want to take a moment to say that I don’t believe that something that comes from a religious source is inherently lesser or untrustworthy. Good sentiments can come from anywhere.) Carrie Fisher herself said that Rey is “very forgiving,” and I would like to think that comment is referring to a future redemption arc for Kylo Ren. That’s pure hope and speculation on my part, of course. Some people act as if Rey ever forgiving Kylo Ren would somehow ‘degrade’ her character, or make her ‘lesser’ to him in the story somehow, but that’s totally wrong. It can be just as much of a journey learning to forgive someone as it is trying to achieve redemption. In the possibility of a redemption for Kylo Ren, I also see the possibility of character growth in Rey. And not just Rey, because Leia is, of course, essential to Kylo’s story, and Finn is significant, as well.

I mean, for the sake of argument, maybe Rey never forgives him. Maybe no one forgives him. That would be just as unsatisfying as it would be if everyone forgave him the minute he apologized. Redemption arcs don’t feel complete until the character has been forgiven at least by one character. Redemption is, in a way, defined by the characters around the character searching for redemption. Zuko’s arc would’ve felt incomplete if he hadn’t mended the wounds he’d caused to Aang, Katara, and Sokka. Even if he still did the Right Thing in the end and became a great person. And I personally love those parts of the story best, because all the characters involved went through massive character growth by the end. It’s all about the characters, the connection to the characters, and how other characters feel about the redeemed character at the end. If there has been no relational arc, then the redemption arc feels incomplete.

Okay. This has gone on way too long, and I’m so sorry about that! This is kind of embarrassing, because I usually don’t answer my asks with a million-word rambling rant, but redemption arcs have been on my mind lately (no surprise there). Hopefully I answered your question, although I’m afraid I just sort of babbled on about redemption arcs in general. Anyway, thank you so much for the ask!