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seasaltmemories · 4 years

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Persona 5 Royal Review/Analysis

So I didn’t have a ps4 when the original persona 5 came out, so royal was my first experience with the game, as a result, I will be talking about spoilers for both the original content and Royal bc a lot of the additions seem mixed in aside from just the third semester stuff

let’s get the summary

Prepare for an all-new RPG experience in Persona 5 Royal based in the universe of the award-winning series, Persona! Don the mask of Joker and join the Phantom Thieves of Hearts. Break free from the chains of modern society and stage grand heists to infiltrate the minds of the corrupt and make them change their ways! Persona 5 Royal is packed with new characters, confidants, story depth, new locations to explore, and a new grappling hook mechanic for stealthy access to new areas.

So one of the things that I picked up really early on into my playthrough was that Persona 5 feels like a very adolescent piece of media, like yeah it is about highschoolers, but more than just its cast and setting, it seemed really fixated on capturing and adolescent mindset, there is this fresh awareness to the injustices of the world and a burning desire to fix it without much understanding of how to even began to tackle those problems, and the fact it stuck so hard to to that worldview made me a lot more forgiving of its flaws then I might have otherwise been, not that there isn’t stuff to critique about the way it tackles controversial issues, but at the same time i just had this mindset of, “well of course they aren’t going to get everything right, what can you expect from teens?”

Anyone who knows me knows I am a pretentious blow-hard, but I think P5 is a perfect example of just how important style is to anything. So much of the pure glee and joy I got when I booted up the game came from the fun presentation and commitment to the phantom thief aesthetic, I have a lot of thoughts on gameplay that seem to be contradictory to the general consensus but to keep things brief, all the “sneaking’ around a palace, grappling from places, ambushing enemies, and performing all out attacks just all gave this sense of being cool and stylish that was great, even if the writing stronger, without those fun flourishes I don’t think I would have enjoyed my experience as much

I also think the more than any other game, persona 5 does a great job of making me thinking “just one more thing” you got a lot of confidants to fill and stats to raise to fill them so there is always something to do, at most during the story sections things sometimes dragged, but i was eager to finish them to get back to finishing my goals, for as long as the game was, this made it feel so much more manageable

Unpacking an entire 110 hour playthrough is kinda an overwhelming task, so instead I’m going to talk about my four favorite characters and hopefully that will cover some good amount of material

1) Goro Akechi- one of the first things I knew about this game was what a controversial character this bastard was and it turns out I fell on the side that loves him bc I think I have a thing for traitor characters, I have to say though for most of the game I wasn’t sure how I felt about him, I knew his true role going in, so it was hard to get attached to Detective Prince Akechi as most of his interactions with Joker felt like an act, however his Rank 8 confidant link, when he not only pulls out a gun on you and challenges you to an one on one fight but also freaking throws a glove to challenge you in a duel I was like “oh so you’re a little bitch boy then!” and never turned back

To me part of what makes him so compelling is just how stubbornly he is set on his path straight to Hell, a lot of ppl were moved by his tragic backstory but honestly it does little for me, I think it is important to consider, but you have to remember he approached Shido about his powers first and basically volunteered to be his personal assassin, still it is hard to ignore that sense of lost potential, in a way I can see how getting to pretend to be a part of a safe and welcoming team environment almost made things worst because he just kept feeling like, “why wasn’t I allowed to have this earlier” and just too tied to his current path of self-destruction to waver from it, like even the fact the Phantom Thieves and he had the same goals regarding Shido in the end, he couldn’t side with bc that would mean acknowledging all the murder he did was for nothing, so they just continued to be another target on his list, made all the more dangerous bc of the affection he held for them

That said I don’t think I would have liked him so much without Royal’s updates, I mentioned Rank 8 being a key moment for me but aside from that, the fight with him in Shido palace had so much going on, it kinda dulled the weight of any one of the numerous revelations, 3rd semester kinda brought in the perfect amount and balance of the different sides of Akechi, the minute he appeared I swear me and my brother cheered in joy, obvious spoilers for the rest of it

I had seen 3rd semester Akechi called “feral” and while he is still as horny for murder as ever, i don’t really think that fits, there is still a sense of restraint to his actions, yet he doesn’t mask his true intentions and feelings so much, what I like is that his rudeness and outbursts come off as very deliberate and planned, as if he enjoys exposing the contrast between his “pleasant” reputation and his true bitterness, and with the reveal that oops he is supposed to be dead, you still have that determined “don’t be a fucking pussy, just pull the trigger,” attitude, I really like the dynamic that forms between a Joker that just wants the best for him and an Akechi that just emphatically refuses to be saved in anyway, he is an easy character to woobify but I love how canon just at every turn doesn’t let you ever see his true vulnerability even if we all know it exists down there, also just something about hearing him curse is always so much fun and delightful

TLDR: I have a lot of feelings about this edgy bastard and may or may not already have a playlist for him

2) Makoto Niijima- another character I had an interesting relationship with, while from the start she seemed like my type, the overwhelming love for her kinda made my hipster side apprehensive, however predictably I was won over and I did romance her in the end (what can I saw my Joker is into brunettes)

Part of what makes her stick out so much to me, is how the game felt much less afraid to show her unlikable in comparison to other characters, i usually don’t complain or really notice this but more than any other game series I’ve played, there is definitely a lot of self-insert fantasy elements involved, ppl rip the newer FE games apart for that, but I never really saw it as the terrible as the cast had dozens of life changing interactions with other characters, the fact most of the interaction we see are through Joker’s eyes, and the fact that he is the catalyst to changing several adults’ lives made this element a lot more noticeable

But not only does Makoto take an antagonistic role at first, but they let her be so smug and annoying that I probably hated her with the same passion as the characters themselves, yet even when she comes over to or sides, her flaws are still pretty open, like when trying to help out Futuba, she definitely had that air of, “neurotypical trying too hard to make you normal” that was understandable but still annoying, and I appreciate it bc it made the contrast between her good points all the sharper

I kinda wanted to roll my eyes at first at her archetype as an honors student, bc yeah i was a nerdy student who didn’t know how to connect with my peers and just kinda subconsciously sucked up to adults bc I didn’t know what else to do, but in comparison to the teeming tragic backstories involved, you can see a stark difference in scale, yet Makoto is just carrying all this familiar teenage girl anger that reminds me a lot of Serena from Arc V, and getting to see her embrace it is very cathartic, I also really enjoyed her confidant which was surprising after seeing everyone tear into it so much, I feel like a lot of ppl’s confidant’s centered around other ppl and it didn’t just start off with the Eiko stuff, you see her Makoto want to change from the sheltered snobbish life she has kinda trapped herself in and rediscover her dream of being a police commissioner, I also found it fitting for her to also kinda figure that out through her own little investigation and to see that exploration of justice explored through her acting with a third party

The fact she is related to Sae also gives her interesting relationships we get to see from a different POV, and a greater investment in arcs outside her own, it just naturally gives her the feeling of being more well-rounded to have it spread out, and while her romance stuff did have the same sort of fantasy elements (that I greatly self-indulged in) overall I never felt like Joker was “saving” her in some way but growing and exploring along sides her

Overall, a great character and while i think best girl debates are dumb, I will not stand for hearing her described as worst girl

3) Ann Takamaki- honestly before I got this game I expected her to be the “main girl” with a lot of popularity and focus so seeing how little love she gets was heartbreaking for me, bc she is part of what made the early phantom thieves so enjoyable

I’ve heard the discussions about the issues around her sexualization and I think things on that access come out to be a wash, the developers kinda brush near some interesting ideas about the struggles women face with sex and attraction but don’t really know what to do with that, and so I think trying to trace and overall arch one way or another about her and her body issues is kinda a lesson in futility

in the end though what made her click for me is just how much fun her personality is, like I feel like in other stories her cheerfulness might come off as generic, but the fact that she is introduced so depressed and sullen makes her attitude shift come off as refreshing, like we know she can be serious, but the fact she isn’t being repeatedly sexually harassed by her teacher gives her like plenty of reason to goof off and enjoy herself

Again despite all the criticism I really enjoyed her confidants, the Mika stuff was honestly barely a blip in the thing and most of it alternated between her shooting the breeze and just having fun and still dealing with that lingering guilt and issues surrounding Shiho and just not having been able to save a close friend when she really needed her, I think the contrast is very much needed, especially to keep things from feeling like wallowing, which i felt was a problem with some other confidants

In the end though the main reason i didn’t romance her was bc as much as I liked her as a character, I didn’t want her to be with Joker specifically, i wanted to support her and see her finally confess her feelings to Shiho and the two of them go ride off into the sunset lol, still there’s a reason I reached rank 10 with her first

4) Takuto Maruki- lol so in this section I’m going to basically go into all my 3rd semester thoughts, again the first leg of his confidant was kinda dull, but I was prioritizing him bc of the deadline, once we got into his personal past that is where I got interested

On one hand part of the charm was just getting to see a more adult story, while there are other adult confidants I found the grad school and like academic stuff relatable, plus like the little moment with the steamed glasses was very funny, he’s just a down to earth guy and his kindness is genuine

However when he stepped up as the antagonist in the third semester, that’s when he got interesting, I found the conflict itself of a dream world to be kinda simple, aside from the fact obviously we need to oppose this for a plot to happen, Persona 5 is all about this humanist approach to personal growth and change, most of what I found fascinating about Maruki was the kinda self-martyring narcissism to his approach, like aside from treat the phantom thieves with kid gloves at time and just doing his best to avoid being a bad guy, there is this simmering resentment he masks and tries to replace with his desire to basically save the world, rather than deal with his own drama and baggage he tries to invest his energy into solving other problems

And you can see some of the parallels between him and the phantom thieves that points out some of hypocrisy of themselves, calculating the exact risks and harms of altering ppl through the Metaverse is hard to do due to a variety of factors, personally I don’t even have other Persona games to look to, but in general while it is for the greater good, the phantom thieves basically impose their will onto ppl who didn’t consent to that change, and in the end they decide to oppose Maruki purely based on their desires to not live in it, the game doesn’t do much with it, but I found the contrast more interesting than the Holy Grail one, plus his boss battle was more fun bc you actually got to use the main mechanic of the game, exploiting weaknesses and baton passing

But yeah all this comes to a head at the latter half of the boss fight where he just is so desperate and refuses to lose, it is like abundantly clear that this dream world is much more for himself than it is for anyone else, it is a desire to turn all his trauma into something more meaningful than just pain, and nothing shows that more clearly than the fact he fistfights a high schooler even after he has basically lost and tries to let himself die rather than face the consequences of his lost. All in all I think he was the my favorite antagonist and palace holder

Some last thoughts I couldn’t fit elsewhere: Casino was my favorite palace, while weak story-wise, Okumura was far from my least favorite palace gameplay-wise and his boss fight as frustrating as it was might be my favorite for engaging with the player, if anything my least favorite palace was Futaba’s, my favorite showtimes are probably Morgana/Ann, Makoto/Ryuji, and Joker/Kasumi, Caroline and Justine are a delight and I really miss them, Tycoon is addicting and distracted me from being able to beat the game for a while

I got more hot takes I might elaborate on in length in the future, but in conclusion this is another rec where I can see and understand ppl being disappointed in some of the writing and its quality but at the same time i think there is still value ppl are too quick to dismiss and definitely multiple reasons to still enjoy it, I think this is going to stick with me for longer than I first thought it wound

#persona 5 #my reviews #p5 royal spoilers #mutuals feel free to discuss this with me more #bc those hot takes are real but at the same time i wanted to keep this focused on what I enjoyed #rather than drown ppl in nitpicks

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kendrixtermina · 5 years

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I haven’t played all four routes yet but from spoilers I do know that Edelgard has some feelings for Byleth regardless of the route. While the shipper in me likes that detail, objectively from what I’ve seen of AM/VW so far I’m not sure why El would feel that way. I don’t want to chalk it up to waifuism right away. Any thoughts on this, since you’ve played all the routes?

Comments on the premise

(Scroll down for an answer to your actual question)

First of all this “waifuism” thing is exceedingly cynical.

Male antagonists in huge classical words of art are given a tragic crush or adorable little daughter/sister them all the time so as to humanize them, give them internal conflict and expose some contradictions about them, and people get how it’s tragic and gives them dimensionality and no one ever says the only reason is so fangirls will think they’re hot. If anyone gets made fun of it’s the fangirls for “not getting the depht” as if that were mutually exclusive. Vulnerability, temptation, struggle for independence... you find that all over the best stories ever told.

For every damself in distress there’s one dude (her boyfriend) who manages to be a full compelling non-satelite human being despite having romance as a motivator the problem isn’t romance it’s bad writing. There’s certainly a problem if almost every single female character in a setting were entirely by romance but the idea that liking someone is to degrade, flatten and cheapen yourself is just as toxic. It can coexist with other more complex motivations and in fact lampshade them.

You might perhaps call bad writing if it were one of those situations where the villainess has no other motivation than dudes, brings it up constantly or is so defined by it that it keeps her from acting in any self-consistent manner or just isn’t taken seriously as an antagonist. Not saying she’s a villain at all but you oppose her on the other routes.

I pretty much all the characters like Byleth and express regret when they go up against them... They have a sort of heroic charisma that’s why they’re the main character. (not per se the other way around - you don’t point the camera where nothing interesting/extrordinary is happening. Few stories tell us about a sack of potatoes falling over or people sitting on chairs, and if they did they’d be about pointing out how potatoes or chairs are actually plenty interesting)

They’re described as accepting ppl just as they are with that having been an attitude impressed on them by their father who himself is cool with Byleth’s own oddities, and also described as one hell of a badass field commander. Also you DO run around all day bringing everyone gifts, their favorite snacks lost possesions and listening to their problems/lifestories.

It’s not like it’s super over the top in your face it’s like a handful of lines many of which you might not even hear if you’ve recruited certain characters or don#t trigger certain engage quotes, and it ties into her greater characterization as someone with consummate laserfocus dedication who has pretty much given up on anything that doesn’t further her goal even her own feelings. - having a crush is just one example, she mentions how she’d have preferred a more peaceful life doing idle fun things and did enjoy her time at the monastery where she got to be just another classmate sand fight alongside everybody else as a comrade.

Though she enjoyed her time at the monastery, her resolve doesn’t waver... but now it hurts a bit more to go through with what she had planned all along since it means losing some of the relative normalcy she had not dared to hope for anymore

You actual question (ie what does she like about them)

Crushes, by nature, are just something that randomly shows up and can produce quite a bit of a reaction in a short time.

Regardless of route you save her from a bandit and there’s all the explore time dialogue and basically lived in close quarters/ saw each other every other day. Even if theyd spend more time with their own class theyd still be around the place doing cool stuff. That would be explanation enough, I mean it doesn’t necessarily mean that something had to come of it, that she wouldn’t get over it or that you’re immediately soulmates or whatever, I mean you can pair her off with plenty of other peeps in her route.

Which isn’t to say that the whole thing is just any old youthful crush. Crush or no crush she really wants them to be allies.

First of all Edelgard has been describing as being drawn to/ sorta ‘collecting’ people she views as talented and exceptional so if you are a badass she’s gonna like you (just in general not even romantically), and if you’re a badass who’s also her ‘type’ that might manifest itself as a crush as well.

She says pretty early on that she thinks they have similar personalities, and she clearly looks for like-mindedness in friends and allies as well, of the ones that she gets semi-friendly with even before the timeskip the only one with a significant different outlook/temperament is Dorothea, and everyone likes Dorothea, since she goes out of her way to befriend anyone who doesn’t resemble an arrogant dunce.

Also, she probably finds the idea of having an ally who is “like her” very enticing. First because she’s used to being misunderstood and someone who is similar might “get” her and relate to her. (Conversely there’s a lot of dialogue where she’s like “I know you’re lying” or “wow you’re telling the truth”... she doesnt find them that opaque/unreadable compared to the other characters. so this also goes both ways... this occurs regularly enough that its even kinda used to hint at who the flame emperor is (”I can tell you dont actually want to join me”))

Byleth is just generally described in a lot of scenes dialogues and supports as someone whos pretty accepting of peolples weirdness and quirks. Leonie thinks they get it from Jeralt. That tends to be a selling point for most of their romantic options especially the house leaders

Likewise, due to various reasons relating to her natural personality, station and backstory she finds it hard to step out of business mode, and ppl tend to sort of flinch away from her because she’s uncommonly powerful and also the princess, and she doesn’t like that/tends to feel somewhat isolated because of it. Even ppl who know Edelgard well enough to have significant insight into her (like Hubert or Ladislava) still speak of her with a kind of awe.

Due to their upbringing away from mainstream society, sorta unphased slightly flippant personality and their own considerable power/competence Byleth is one of the few who isn’t daunted to approach her like any ol regular person. They’re powerful enough for her to approach them on an even level, or even rely on them/ take pointers from them.

You also see that to an extent with Lysithea (who is not just a fellow experiment victim but also has a similar ‘serious/focussed’ outlook and love of sugary things) with whom she also gets various “I wish you’d joined me/pity that we must fight” sort of dialogue. She’s Edelgard’s one inter-house support (suggesting a similar “I kinda can’t help wanting to get to know you even though I know we might become enemies” dynamic at play) the “free recruitee” on the CF route (whereas the other cases are in situations where they have incentives to flip - Lorenz is only with the empire out of opportunism so why wouldn’t he join the kingdom if they look to be winning? And Ashe was flat out drafted and is only with the Rowes out of obligation) and if you spare her she’ll say that Claude explicitly told her to waive the white flag if things get tough because he figured that Edelgard would be likely to spare her.

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notesofarichlycolorednight · 6 years

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Hi,pal! I'm loving "It's the perfect story"! However, the subject I'm talking about doesn't directly to the fic. By what I know, people don't hate Silena because she was the spy,it's more like they think her being seduced/manipulated into doing it is detracting to her character. Many posts say that's very insulting to teen girls, or her cause should be something like "her cabin was being disrespected"(out of character IMO, but I'll talk about it later)...

Continuation. Or “the demigods were being mistreated by the gods”(not a bad one,but Silena didn’t really feel the worst of the gods IMO. Not like Luke, Chris or Tori in the fic). People are entitled to their opinions, but I disagree. About the “disrespected cabin stuff”,Silena is defensive in a blunt, straightforward way when it happens. Examples: how she wanted to fight the Huntresses when they said love was worthless;or when people were surprised by her magic knowledge,and she looked offended.

Cont. Besides, those behaviors show that Silena can be quite passionate and proud, what probably made her vulnerable to manipulation(her romantic nature didn’t help). Besides, Silena herself thought she was saving lives. I believe Luke’s words would sound truer to her if she cared about him than from a dispassionate perspective. Besides, if Luke managed to lure Percy to near death with a friendly smile and soda,despite Percy’s instincts saying no,I believe he could do it to Silena…

Cont. By what I read, your only issue was the age. However, I think that was something like “death of the author” in canon,as she didn’t get one. In fact, I rather like the idea of Silena being an older camper,including than Charles(if 18 years old girls date boys in their 20’s…),both in canon and in your fic. In your fic,it could make her Tori ’ s peer. In canon,it’d fit the whole “role model” stuff we had going on HoO.

what’s up dude! thanks, i’m glad to hear you’re enjoying it!

that’s how i interpreted it when i read the books (or how i remember interpreting it, at least, i haven’t read the series in a while) like, being the spy meant she was a traitor, which is also a comment abt her character (i.e., may she’s not the greatest person–for the lack of a better word–bc she was a traitor). when clarisses declares she’s a hero, i assumed it was supposed to be juxtaposed to her being a traitor. which is a roundabout way to say that the ultimate end is the same, whereas the perspective is different? but i can see where others are coming from–that the campers would be more mad bc of the fact that she was easily manipulated by luke, rather than her being the spy

i guess i can see where ppl are coming from regarding it being an insult to teen girls (i’d really like to see those posts tho, bc i actually haven’t seen anyone talk abt that–i somehow manage to avoid discourse like we’re two opposing magnets, my d-list x-men power), bc it plays off the stereotype that teen girls are so boy crazy, they’re easily manipulated by any good-looking guy that smiles in their direction. it doesn’t help that she’s a child of aphrodite. and what i mean by that is, i think, ppl often water down what aphrodite is the goddess of. when ppl say, “she’s the goddess of love and beauty” ppl often think she’s the goddess of, “being vain and romantic/sexual love” (not true btw, fite me, i will gladly jump into that discourse)

but anyway, back to my main point, i can see how it may play off a teen girl stereotype (rick is good at doing that sometimes, which isn’t entirely his fault, bc like i said abt toxic masculinity, it’s so ingrained in our society, it’s hard to unlearn and we often fall into those stereotypes if we’re not fully aware of them and consciously thinking about them), but i also don’t entirely agree with that argument, either

now i could be wrong, esp since i haven’t read any of this discourse, so i haven’t read ppl’s reasoning or arguments, but it sounds very surface-level White Feminism™ and what i mean by that is that there are more grey areas to this argument, okay, so put away your pitchforks and put out your torches and, i mean, also that this argument is coming from ppl who want to seem like they’re woke, but then turn around and continue to do or say things that are insidiously bigoted

like i said, i can see how it plays into a stereotype, but if we’re going by rick’s canon (which we totally don’t have to, but for this argument’s sake we are) she’s young and impressionable, luke is handsome and charming–if another young person were in her position, we’d probably see the same thing. young ppl are easy to manipulate, they just are. they’re still learning abt the world, and how it works, and that maybe not everyone has good intentions. not to mention they’re still trying to find themselves, and they look to peers, mentors, and ppl who are respected (for whatever reason) for cues to how they should act and think. it’s like trying on clothes or taste-testing foods–they’re trying out opinions. if they don’t like the “taste” of an opinion, then they learn, grow, and change. some ppl instantly connect with an opinion (which could be bigoted or not) and not explore further, or could be sheltered and just not have the opportunity to experience anything else.

the opinion here: the gods are bad. the person she’s looking to for guidance: luke. plain and simple

and, as you say anon, percy even fell for luke’s charms (despite the warning signs!! and percy is most def Not Straight, so luke was also using that fact against percy as well, whether rick luke knew it or not). so, ya know, there ya go

now, i think rick chose a child of aphrodite, and a girl, bc he thought he was turning a trope on its head–you’d never expect (from the stereotype of what aphrodite stands for) silena to be a spy, to work for kronos of all ppl titans. do you see what i mean? i think he was going for an elle woods effect–except in the polar opposite direction. the ends is the same, where this girl who is often underestimated (like elle) turns out to do something no one expected of her (in silena’s case, being the spy, which takes a lot of guts, nerve, and smarts–the opposite of what ppl expect from aphrodite, based on a reductive stereotype)

and that’s where the real issue lies, not that she was a teen girl, but rather some of the decisions the author made under wrong assumptions

i agree that the alternatives aren’t as sincere or make as much sense. silena didn’t experience a whole lot of strife regarding her mom or the gods in general, so she’d have no reason to hate them as luke does–she’d have no reason to be the spy for luke if he were to simply use that argument to get her to kronos’s side. and maybe she would’ve joined kronos under “her cabin was being disrespected,” however, it was’t being disrespected by the gods themselves, right? not like the minor gods, not like nemesis or hecate. the disrespect comes more from the ppl around her–the ppl who assume the wrong things abt aphrodite when they hear the words “love” and “beauty.” so that alternative reason doesn’t hold a lot of water if you really think abt it

i also agree with you: that her passion and pride made her more easily manipulated, and also that luke’s words would mean more coming from a more passionate and personal perspective. luke fed her lines that played into her character (like how kronos fed luke lines that played into his hatred for the gods). if she felt passionate abt helping save ppl (and it’s coming from someone she likes, someone she looks up to), then she’d be the spy for sure. if she had a crush on luke, more for him to use against her, right? that’s just how it goes sometimes, ya know? her crush are her rose-colored glasses, add that on top of “you’d be saving lives” and, well, luke’s got her wrapped around kronos’s finger

yeah, the age thing is a big sticking point for me, just bc based on the timeline of things, she’s several years younger than luke (which make his kiss, in my story, really gross). if beckendorf was going to college during tlo, he was probably at the least 18, and silena was probably around the same age. by this time, luke is 23, so that means that she’s abt 5 years younger? is five years a huge deal between older ppl (like mid- to late-twenties and beyond)? not at all. but with younger ppl (teens and early twenties), it’s a HUGE gap in age, and a HUGE deal.

but like you say, i think rick is hitting that point of “death of the author” (esp with more recent events…btw, jason is totally alive and well, and if you think or try to tell me differently, then you can meet me in a denny’s parking lot at 3am), so we can totes not follow canon and age both silena and beckendorf up. not to mention, there’s no specific age that ppl go to college (just in general most ppl starting college are from 17-20) so it’s completely fine for beckendorf to be going to college at 22, 23. and a 2 yr age difference (regarding beckendorf at 20, dating silena at 18) is totes better than a 5 yr difference for sure

i really like tori and silena being peers, and i if i had been more comfortable breaking canon (and knew what i know now, then), it would’ve been fun to write (but eeeyyy, it’s fun to think abt, so there may be headcanons in your future regarding this). finally, you’re right, i think it would make “silena as a role model” so much more powerful if she had been/was older in canon

thanks for sending these in! i had a lot of fun talking and thinking abt all the points you brought up/made, and i hope to continue this discussion, if you want!

#oh god for shame! i do not even know your name #notesofananonymousnight #asked and answered #silena beauregard #pjo meta #washingdad writes

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comicteaparty · 5 years

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March 25th-March 31st, 2019 CTP Archive

The archive for the Comic Tea Party week long chat that occurred from March 25th, 2019 to March 31st, 2019. The chat focused on Tamberlane by Caytlin Vilbrandt.

Featured Comment:

Chat:

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- WEEK LONG BOOK CLUB START!

Hello and welcome everyone to Comic Tea Party’s Week Long Book Club~! This week we’ll be focusing on Tamberlane by Caytlin Vilbrandt~! (https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/)

You are free to read and comment about the comic all week at your own pace, so stop on by whenever it suits your schedule! Remember, though, that while we allow constructive criticism, our focus is to have fun and appreciate the comic. Below you will find four questions to get you started on the discussion. However, a new question will be posted and pinned everyday (between 12:01AM and 6AM PDT), so keep checking back for more! You have until March 31st to tell us all your wonderful thoughts! With that established, let’s get going on the reading and the chatting!

QUESTION 1. What has been your favorite scene in the comic so far? What specifically did you like about it?

QUESTION 2. Where do you think Tamberlane is from? Is she from Abroad as some characters have suggested? What do you think Tamberlane’s past history is? Last, what do you think will happen when Tamberlane’s origins are uncovered?

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Yay! Hi all! I can't wait to talk about Tamberlane with you!

I'll add my answers to the discussion when I'm more awake =w=

Delphina

I remember reading the first chapter of Tamberlane once upon a time; so happy to have the opportunity to catch up again and see where it's gone!

I love just about every scene with Oakewood or Piper because they're both hilarious, but this one probably wins for me. He's such a good reverse psychology grandpa. https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/tamberlane/page-94/

Close second is Piper's brilliant plan because I am also a saleswoman at heart: https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/tamberlane/page-110/

Delphina

All signs definitely point to the idea that Tamberlane is from Abroad, and I'm very curious about what's so scary about it. (My guess is that it's the world of Humans and animal-types get treated like animals there, which would explain their fears). From the conversation with Tagg and Danger, I suspect there's internal conflict in the land of Abroad (a plague? a war?), and Tamberlane was sent out baby-on-the-river-style by a well-meaning mom that wanted her to have a better life. Tamberlane seems to be good at making friends, though, so I think even if they confirm that she's from Abroad, the community will still accept and protect her. It very much feels like "it takes a village to raise a child" is a big central theme in this comic.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Oooh, that's an interesting theory!

I definitely wanted to explore It Takes a Village in this story for sure

I didn't grow up in any tight-knit neighborhoods and our distant family was either extra distant or just not close emotionally, so I don't really know what that kind of mentality is like on a personal level. I wanted to see what I could figure out with a story like that. :3

As for MY answers......:3c 1. My favorite scene in the comic so far is probably still this one dang page because it came out exactly like I wanted it to in my head.

2. Obviously I can't comment much on this due to spoilers, but I do think when her origins come to light, people are gonna flip their dang lids. :3

Delphina

I think you did a really good job of conveying a close, loving community! I can tell even between minor characters there's a lot of kindness and support in this setting and it's very refreshing to read!

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Yaaaay :D

I know for a little bit early on in the writing, I was planning a more contentious environment around Belfry ("what a hassle") but then was like, who wants to read that? Not me. Screw that, lol

RebelVampire

QUESTION 3. At the moment, who is your favorite character? What about that character earns them this favor?

QUESTION 4. Why do you think Follybrook is held in such low disregard? Who exactly are the creatures who occupy Follybrook? Also, what do you make of the rumors that Follybrook residents are disappearing because of something happening Abroad?

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Hmmm, my favorite character is hard to choose. I love them all. But right now, I'd say probably Belfry. She tries so hard, and she didn't get a lot of spotlight in Chapter 3, and I really want to do more interaction with her and Tamberlane in Chapter 4.

As for Follybrook... :3

varethane

I like Briar! Something about her combination of moodiness and compassion just gets me, haha

Delphina

Briar is an MVP for sure

varethane

Oakewood and Piper are second (I'm really enjoying watching Oakewood pretend he doesn't actually CARE about Tamberlane, he's just studying! It's not parenting, nope)

(Piper because she is a hilarious troll)

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Briar has a special place in my heart for sure! She's me when I was 13, lmao. Though, a little more confrontational than I was XD

varethane

I dunno about Follybrook, though I get the impression it's closer to Abroad than Treehollow is? Which I guess might be why it's being affected first by whatever's happening out there.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

You are correct! Follybrook is on the "border" of Abroad. Sort of the last gasp of civilization so to speak.

varethane

(yess)

Nanners

Oh damn, was not expecting lore when I popped into this channel

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Mwahahaha

Delphina

Belfry is definitely a sweetie, but I feel like I need to see her not in crisis and/or mom mode to really connect with who she is and what she's about. I'm looking forward to more stuff with her in Chapter 4 and the scenes with her and Tamberlane are always very sweet, but I'd also like to see more of who she is as an individual when she's not being defined by her relationship to others.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

That is a good thing to note!

varethane

same, re: Belfry

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

-scribbles notes- All I'd heard so far from folks was wanting more scenes with her and Tam, so that's a good thing for me to think about going forward!

Delphina

Oakewood is probably my favorite too because he's clearly got this "big fish in a small pond" sort of wisdom and crusty outside/softie inside personality that's just perfect. I'm looking forward to how Milo's introduction might accent or challenge that.

(Also does Milo have a pet moth because I want 40) https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/tamberlane/page-125/

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

He totally does

A big ol fluffy moth named Sophie

Delphina

Awwwwww, Sophie looks so soft!

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Since he's a cameo, in the reference character that was provided, he actually had a pet spider!

But I decided I did not want to stare at reference photos up close of a spider

So Sophie became a moth XD

Delphina

Oooooh

varethane

oooo

RebelVampire

1) my favorite scene is probably the one where tamberlane tries to help the crow guy and the crow guy goes all prejudiced. and then oakewood swoops in and calls her his grandaughter and yells at the guy. i like seeing tamberlane still trying to be helpful, but i also like oakewood way more clearly defining their relationship cause that opens up a whole new can of worms and kind of adds some vulnerability to him. also, has a great ending where milo comments on this and oakewood tells him to shut up XD https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/tamberlane/page-140/ 2) i think Abroad has been mentioned way too much for Tamberlane to not be from aborad. This is not to mention a) they don't know what a human is and b) they seem relatively unfamiliar whats going on in Aborad land. So i mean, all the clues only point to one place. unlike @Delphina , im actually assuming a darker route. cause tamberlane seems kind of neglected so im not sure this is a situation of well meaning mom. more like mom who might of tried and gave up. im also less optimistic about ppl saying its fine tamberlane is from abroad. cause there seems to be a lot of built up prejudice there and man, idk. prejudice is hard to just flip at the turn of a hat.

Delphina

But yeah, if Follybrook is super-close to Abroad, then that sorta explains why the villagers treat them as social pariahs more than "those kids with their piercings and bad attitudes who are only let in once a year". The big drama in which Tess revealed that if Belfry went there for even a GOOD reason like trying to care for Tamberlane, she'd be full-out exiled was pretty shocking. Because yeah, if Abroad was simply dangerous and full of monsters, I can't imagine why it would be wrong or bad to come back; the big fear would be that you WOULDN'T come back. It seems like Abroad almost has a demonic/evil status in their minds and that they believe (rightly or wrongly) ANY contact would fundamentally change a person or attract something bad. I just struggle with the fact that if Abroad has so much mindshare in the fabric of their society, and if Tamberlane (and maybe all humans) are from there, absolutely nobody what a human looks like or have any stories that might help them identify Tamberlane as one? If there was something big and scary that I was to stay away from at all costs, I'd want to know what it looked like.

RebelVampire

3) my favorite character is definitely oakewood bar none. i am a sucker for grumpy guys. but i especially like oakewood cause hes not the stereotypical grumpy guy. cause usually old grump guys are the most prejudiced. but in this case oakewood is actually the more forward thinking of the bunch. when everyone else was telling belfry to just abandon tamberlane hes just like "nah come live with me." and then tolerates her clumsiness and all that jazz. its great contrast that plays on expectations and i love it. 4) I assume the creature occupying follybrook are just regular creatures. but ya know, prejudice and all that. which i think the comic does a good job of showing through example how prejudice works. all the characters weve known seem to have this fear and sort of "they're different think" about them. so as a reader you cant help but think "oh they must be different" even tho that might not necessarily be the case. As for the rumors, I assume theyre based on truth. Maybe some secret slave ring or something. Though not sure what it has to do with what might be going on in abroad.

yeah you make a good point @Delphina . for a place they seem to hate so much its just flat out exile, they dont seem to know much about it. or at least anything that theyre willing to talk about yet. which its strange even follybook folks who are closer are just kind of vague about what they know of abroad

Nanners

Hey @Caytlin (Tamberlane) , you mentioned that you spent a lot of time making the bartering system. Tell us about it!

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

I can say, at least, that a lot of these topics will be broached in Chapter 4! :3 I can't wait to see reactions, haha

AS FOR BARTER! Oh god the barter system. I read some novels, did some research on different kinds of monetary systems. The world of Tamberlane is sort of a socialist utopia where folks' basic needs are taken care of and the town bands together to care for each other. You do work for the town, the town does work for you. So there's not a lot of, like, "how much does this cost" so much as "what of my work can I trade you"

Which! Let me just say, I have a HELL of a time trying to write and get that across

If I did it over, they'd just have a dang money system lmao

Nanners

I dunno, it makes sense that a small town would work on a trade and favor system. I live in a tiny neighborhood in the country, and things tend to work like that

A side quest economy, essentially

TimmoWarner

This isn't story related (or only tangentally), but I love seeing the groups of pallette changes when you look at all the pages in a grid on the archive.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Oh yeah it totally makes sense! It's a good story decision! It's just difficult to get across narratively and causes more confusion than it helps when it comes to telling a story

Also :'D Thanks Timmo!! I really enjoy having different palettes for different scenes!

Folks are just more used to parsing "I bet you five bucks" rather than "I bet you six months of library research"

Nanners

I bet you 15 pounds of pickled beets

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

It's much easier when you have a good like that, yeah! Trying to figure out what Oakewood would offer was tough XD

Nanners

Does scowling count as a good or service?

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

It's like a kissing booth!

But it's a scowling booth

2 pence per scowl

TimmoWarner

Oakewood offers access to the "good" books in the back room.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

"Y'like that, do ya? Yeah?" "Oakewood... this is a book about gardening" "THE BEST BOOK ABOUT GARDENING, THANK YOU"

TimmoWarner

Exactly.

Nanners

Is it cannon that Oakewood's a good DM?

Delphina

I would totally play DND with Oakewood

He would totally murder the party though

Nanners

What class would everyone be?

Milo as a wizard, obviously

Henry as a paladin

Belfry cleric?

Delphina

(Except she keeps rolling critical fails?)

Nanners

Constantly rolls low on cure wounds

Delphina

-7 Dexterity

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Oh oh I was thinking about this recently lol!

Tess is a Barb for sure

Belfry might be a wild magic sorcerer lmao

I totally can see Oake as the DM though yeah LOL

Delphina

Oake would be constantly complaining about all the weird stuff the players do.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

"Rrrrr, another five minute break, I DIDN'T PLAN FOR THIS."

TimmoWarner

So... the climax is the coyote character was right all along?

I thought... we'd fight a monster or something.

"Why would you want to fight a monster?!"

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

LOL

"The real monster was your stubborn refusal to accept the truth all along"

TimmoWarner

Haha

(Though I suspect Oakewood actually likes swashbuckling stories.)

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

He does; he also likes romance

He's a cranky old softy

TimmoWarner

I think I knew about the romance.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Yeah, that was one of the first character Q&A comics

Delphina

I can definitely see him taking a stance of fictional relationships being so much better than real ones because when you're done with them you can put them on the shelf.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Lol! Omg so true

darch

It's late, but I just found out about this, so some thoughts until I get to be around when other people get to be around.

(1) My favorite page is definitely page 81. Because (a) the punch line is fantastic, (b) it lands right in the middle of a really emotional scene without undercutting the emotion even a bit, and (c) it is the most perfect summation of the Belfry Existential Dilemma, which is made up of two parts: (i) you can't mess this up and (ii) you are going to mess this up. Magnificent.

(2) Tamberlane is from the future. Obviously.

(3) With apologies to all of the well-realized and multi-faceted characters at play in this story, Sophie is and shall always be my one true love because SHE IS SO FLUFFY AND I LOVE HER. My opinion is extremely biased; Milo is my cameo (though not my Cameo cameo, that would be weird) and worth it just for the fluffbug sidekick.

darch

Milo was original a My Little Pony character of mine, and I continue to think that having a spider sidekick is great. For a look at Midnight Sun and Sophie before they were translated to the Tamberverse, have a look at [cw and spoiler because spider]

SPOILER

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ff7o7k5jda5pfgo/midnight-sun-the-adventurer.png?raw=1 (that art also by Caytlin).

RebelVampire

QUESTION 5. What has been your favorite illustration in the comic so far? What specifically about it do you like?

QUESTION 6. What do you believe happened to Belfry’s biological parents? How might Belfry’s abandonment issues regarding them play a role in how she raises Tamberlane (both positively and negatively)?

RebelVampire

5) okay. ill fully admit this is not the most epic illustration i could pick, but i really love this full body of tamberlane on this page https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/tamberlane/page-100/ tamberlane was always cute, but this is the one where my heart was stolen. like everything about her look is precious and makes you want to snuggle and protect her till the end of days. and i also like how contrasting it is to how she was before, so even without words you can tell time has passed and growth has occured and i really like. 6) Honestly, I think theyre imprisoned some how. But tbf i ironically want them to be alive and fine and showcase its the fact they were auto exiled thats the problem. And that they couldve been with belfry at any time but nope, rules and prejudice and such. but thats just my headcanon. I'm more interested in how itll affect how belfry raises tamberlane, and in a lot of senses i think its going to be a negative impact. like i feel belfry is kind of obsessed with making sure tamberlane feels loved and accepted. and while on the surface that sounds great, what happens if she has to punish tamberlane severely? is she going to panic tamberlane not feel loved and not do it? is it going to be lighter than it should? belfry already showed when she took in tamberlane that shes hyper conscious about her abandonment, and i dont think tamberlane alone is gonna make that hyperconsciousness about it go away. but on the otherhand, maybe by association others will confront belfry and make her talk about her feelings.

lonelytuatara

to reiterate what i said in the general webcomic chat: i only just started reading and the art is soo pretty!!

lonelytuatara

continuing to read: belfry pulling the pie out of the oven without mitts..... child.........

darch

She is a problem.

lonelytuatara

:O the "ghost"!!!!

lonelytuatara

"congratulations, it's a swamp monster" made me chuckle

lonelytuatara

got to page 100! tamberlane's lil pigtails are adorable

lonelytuatara

all the way caught up now! i really liked the comic and i'm excited to continue following it!

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Aaaa yay :'D I'm glad you're enjoying it!!!

lonelytuatara

i'm gonna let it sink in for a bit before i go to answer the book club questions, but overall I found it a enjoyable mix of comforting and intriguing! im always glad to find stories where trans and nonbinary characters are treated as just a normal part of society

darch

There are many things to like about Tamberlane. The gorgeous art and casual representation are high on that list for me.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

./)//w//(\

I will get around to answering the latest q's in a bit. I'm pretty wiped out today =w=;;; but! I am super happy people are enjoying the comic and convo :'D

Rebel, you made a great point about how Belfry obsesses over Tamberlane. I love it.

anonus

Tamberlane is a beautiful comic

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Thank you! :D

kayotics

so, i just started, like... 10 minutes ago so I'm not very far, but the art is extremely cute and i love the expressions and colors. Really great shapes on all the characters. the main strokes of each character's personality is painted straight away in a really strong way, too

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Oh my gosh, thank you >u<;;; I'm so glad

anonus

@Caytlin (Tamberlane) so, um, how did you come up with the idea for Tamberlane?

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

So! I had spent a couple of years trying to write a comic and was just writing myself in circles and running into walls. Finally I got really fed up with not having a project so I said, FINE, next story idea to come into my head, I'M JUST GONNA DO IT. And then during D&D the next week I was doodling creatures and I drew Belfry and Oakewood and was like Ooo I like them. Then I drew Tamberlane's previous form, a little dragon, and was like oh hey they're taking care of an unknown creature, that's fun! And then I was like, actually a little dragon is not weird enough to set her apart from a buncha animals ... Oh hey what about if she's human?? And within a month I had started the comic haha

I wanted to challenge myself to do a project where I allowed myself to make mistakes and not be perfect and not worldbuild myself into a pit

varethane

I think that's pretty important, is the willingness to be flexible and play around

with longform webcomics, when it takes so long to make something, and you're working on the same story for years..... people grow as creators, and as people, and develop different tastes and learn things..... and it'd be a shame to not be able to express that if you're stuck to the same script you wrote 5 years ago, lol

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Exactly!! When you think about like every longform webcomic taking like at least 5 years ... there's not a lot of years where you can be creating compared to the number of stories in your head.

And I really just wanted to make something and get my hands dirty. So it's been a really interesting experience, half following a plan and half throwing it out the window lol!

varethane

for what it's worth, from a reader's perspective, it flows very nicely

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Thank goodness, haha! I always worry. XD

anonus

yeah it definitely flows nicely

also I've never played D&D

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

D&D is a lot of fun with the right group! And endlessly frustrating with the wrong one. XD But if you end up having a group of friends online or off, it's totally worth trying it out!

anonus

I do have lots of online friends! Don't get out enough offline at the moment though

also what inspired you to become an artist

stubat

Hi, all! just spotted the invite. Busy bat. Love Tamberlane!

I'll try to catch up with you all tomorrow evening, if I get a chance. Midnite now, kinda slow and I've got work in the morning. Belfry forever!

RebelVampire

QUESTION 7. Which characters do you enjoy seeing interact the most? What about their dynamic interests you?

QUESTION 8. What has been your favorite moment in regards to how Tamberlane has been accepted or not accepted in Treehollow? What about it made the moment emotionally compelling and what should we take away from it in regards to discrimination and acceptance?

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

Heeeey Stubat! <3

5. My favorite illustrations seem to be a rotating toss up of Belfry & Tam in the sunrise, Oakewood walking along the docks with Piper/Anthony/Tamberlane at sunrise, and the full shot of the Library at night(edited)

6. :3c(edited)

7. I really enjoy writing Briar and Belfry interacting. Small factoid that I don't think will ever be revealed in the story: the bulky blue and white scarf she's been wearing this chapter is one Belfry knitted for her (poorly). It's knotty and has a lot of gaps, but it was a work of love, and Briar wore it because 1) she loves it and she loves Belfry no matter what, and 2) sort of as a good luck token for Tess and Bel to make up.

Oh super belatedly, another thing about Follybrook: I LOVED that a lot of readers jumped to the conclusion that they were Othered because they were punky/bad tempered/non-binary. And then I loved watching them come to the realization that there were a lot of characters in Treehollow that fit those descriptions so it had to be something else. I think someone specifically called it out as an allegory for trans people, and then a couple readers mentioned Marie and they were like ... oh huh, hm.

I like making people think lol!

8. Hmm, I think I like the interaction with Leon, the grumpy crow. It was a scene that was written late in the game (like, during the scene before lol!) and I put up an auction for Leon's cameo slot. I really enjoyed being able to pack in a lot of underlying meaning to the interaction, and remind readers that Tamberlane's transition to creature society is not as smooth or effortless as it's seemed.

Plus, yeah, deciding on a whim to have Oakewood call her his granddaughter and out himself and his feelings was fun :3

Delphina

There are SO MANY cute/loving character interactions, but I think when Briar is relaying her mom's message to Belfry really stood out to me because of how much she clearly cares and how torn she is in the middle of their conflict.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 9. What sorts of art or story details have you noticed in the way the comic is crafted that you think deserves attention?

QUESTION 10. Which of the parents did you connect with the most in regards to how they parent their child(ren)? What do you think we can learn about life in regards to the various parent/child dynamics work and growing up?

RebelVampire

7) Probably Piper and Tamberlane. Unlike all the other relationships where its either warm fuzzies or kind of understandable anger and drama, theirs is the relationship i think is built entirely upon misunderstandings and kids being kids. Cause at the end of the day, Piper is still a kid so i have some forgiveness in her initial treatment of tamberlane. because honestly she probably just doesnt fully grasp yet the consequences of her actions. but its interesting to see how their relationship has been one of tension where youre really not sure if the trauma can be overcome or not. so that makes it really interesting. 8) I liked that small moment when Walter kind of took Tamberlane away from the fighting. Cause holy crap was that a significant change going from "your mistake" to here let me protect this little one. it was such a small thing but it really demonstrated the time passage and also kind of reflected that sometimes non acceptance is less about hatred, more about unfamiliarity. not to say he might not think shes a mistake, but that still was a lot warmer of an interaction than i expected and showed he cared. https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/tamberlane/page-132/

9) I love a lot of the little visual details on Tess. Like the scars, the bit that's taken out of her ear. It really shows off her past. And its just one of those super good character details a lot of people dont utilize and adds so much character to the character. <3 10) I actually connected with Avery the most, but this is in large because i was raised by a single mother. And to me i think Avery really captured that balance of needing to work, trying to be there for your kid, while also not really able to be there all the time cause of the work issue. So while Piper may not be the best behaved of the children, it's totally understandable given the circumstances and i give props to avery seeming to make it work regardless. overall, though, i think what we can learn about the various parent and child dynamics is that 1) parents are winging it and 2) while parents are a big influence, theres a point you have to divorce yourself from them and make your own choices in life.

snuffysam

aaah i finally caught up and this comic is so good! it's kind of late where i am rn, so I'm just gonna cut right to the chase and say - oakewood is my favorite character, hands down. i couldn't tell you why, but I'm just a sucker for the gruff, older guy with a heart of gold

TimmoWarner

Everyone loves Oakewood.

He'd be the best character if not for Marie.

Caytlin (Tamberlane)

I definitely took a lot of inspiration for Oakewood from the cranky old guy in Wolf Children lol! That's his voice in my head too (the dub version)

RebelVampire

QUESTION 11. What do you think are this particular comic’s strengths? What do you think makes this comic unique? Please elaborate.

QUESTION 12. Which aspect of the comic’s world caught your attention the most? Alternatively, what world aspect are you hoping to see explored more? What culture detail do you think is the most significant when it comes to the story?

snuffysam

I think the strongest aspect of the comic is its theming. Just the overarching theme of parenthood, and how the best of intentions don't always work out the way you planned. You can see that theme everywhere in the story (from big things like Belfy & Tess's fight to smaller things like Belfy's clumsiness), and it all fits togeter SO well.

RebelVampire

QUESTION 13. What are you most looking forward to in the comic? Also, do you have any final thoughts to share overall?

QUESTION 14. Do you believe Belfry might have to go Abroad for Tamberlane as Tess ominously worries about? Why do you believe creatures who go Abroad get banned? How might what goes on in Abroad affect their lives regardless?

RebelVampire

11) I feel the comic's strength is showing relationships and having that be a major drive of the story. Like there's no shortage of parenting styles, friendships, or anything else. And everything is about how the characters work off one another. And no character is really all black and white either. they just all have different views and different ways of handling things. so i think that makes all the character interactions interesting since you never know quite what youre gonna get ever instance. 12) The aspect that caught my eye the most was the presence of another spoken language. I hope it's explored more where that comes from and such, cause its a really interesting facet given everyone else is otherwise speaking the same language. the other detail im really interested in seeing explore is how the world is set up. like we know there are sailors who go around and explore but avoid aborad, so im curious what their known world is like in its totality. 13) I'm looking forward to seeing Belfry grow more and come more into her own. Atm, I kind of feel shes still just a kid trying to figure stuff out, so itll be interesting to see how tamberlane changes and effects her maturity levels. 14) Yes. Aborad feels like it's brought up too many times for belfry to not have to go. But I feel going will be a good thing cause it will kind of force the world to maybe stop ignoring abroad and accept that its part of the world too, whether they want it to be part of it or not.

varethane

I wanna find out what Tamberlane's deal is!

And also what's going on in Abroad, there've been hints about it being a strange and dangerous place and I am excited to find out what it's actually like.

lonelytuatara

I wonder if Abroad is like..... a portal to the regular human world or something!

or if it's still in the same world but with more humans

varethane

That's kinda my theory

The fact that they're SO nervous about it makes me wonder if it is closer to the portal thing

Would make it feel more alien to them

lonelytuatara

yea!!

like it seems like even GOING close to it is seen as dangerous, not just entering the actual place

ohh also speaking of different locations: follybrook! my theory on it, based on the way that characters interacted w folks from follybrook, is that body modifications like piercing and docking (and maybe even gender-related body mods) are a cultural taboo in Silver Sage

so anyone from silver sage who Wants to do those things has to move to follybrook, and the creatures of follybrook have just as much disdain for the ol' fuddyduddies who refuse to let people do what they want with their bodies as the creatures of silver sage have for them

also it seems like metal is Important to silver sage's culture in some specific way, like it has spiritual significance

altho i could just have misread

RebelVampire

COMIC TEA PARTY- WEEK LONG BOOK CLUB END!

Thank you everyone so much for reading and chatting about Tamberlane this week! Please also give a special thank you to Caytlin Vilbrandt for volunteering the comic and creating it! If you liked Tamberlane, make sure to continue to support it via some of the links below!

Read and Comment: https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/

Caytlin Vilbrandt’s Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/tamberlane

Caytlin Vilbrandt’s Ko-Fi: https://www.ko-fi.com/pixelprism

Caytlin Vilbrandt’s Paypal.me: https://www.paypal.me/pixelprism

Caytlin Vilbrandt’s Shop: https://www.tamberlanecomic.com/shop/

Tamberlane’s Twitter: https://twitter.com/tamberlanecomic

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makeroomforthejolyghost · 7 years

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OK!!! saint-loup. it is saint-loup o’clock. i do not have these thoughts well formulated so this might get kinda long n messy but i promised myself i’d Talk This Out w/ myself on this reading, so. icee straw kazoo.

ok so saint-loup is the narrator’s friend tho like... to the extent this term is applicable in friendships m’s kinda The Unrequiter, often exhibits w/out expressly saying that he feels kinda guilty for Using Him or at least for like. not being able to match the energy saint-loup brings to the relationship. in fact the main thing he consistently notices in saint-loup is energy, strength. but also solicitude! which combination to me seems weird? i’m fond of saint-loup but he makes me uncomfortable, i think bc while, on one hand, his slightly sophomoric intellectualism and nervous quickness and tendency to be officiously solicitous*--which 3 traits m associates w/ saint-loup’s ability to assimilate quickly (3.98, 153)--all remind me of me, and also of many people i’ve known, but then...? on the other hand, i have never seen those traits (esp. solicitude) in a strong person; saint-loup is passive-aggressive and i have only ever observed that demeanor in weak people--most of them sick, bats and/or non-men; certainly not in a straight-passing man (as saint-loup does at this time) if he’s also healthysane--since passive-aggression is so. roundabout, and mind-over-matter &c. like. all the things i have in common w/ saint-loup are traits i’ve developed because i’m not a man, not straight, not neurotypical, not strong, u know? and certainly these traits are ones people like me are supposed to dislike in ourselves, but i find that recognizing them in someone usually makes me more comfortable around them, because... well, you know. because the ways in which we’d be likely to hurt each other are basically the same?

meanwhile early in volume 3 you get this scene where saint-loup introduces m to a bunch of his friends, all adorably over-eager to Show Off m’s intellect, make sure he makes a good impression, and

“No? You don’t agree about Stendhal?” he went on, with a naïve confidence in my judgment which found expression in a charming, smiling, almost childish glance of interrogation from his green eyes. “Oh, good! I see you’re on my side. ... The Chartreuse is after all a stunning work, don’t you think? I’m so glad you agree with me. What is it you like best in the Chartreuse? Answer me,” he urged with boyish impetuosity. And the menace of his physical strength made the question almost terrifying. (136)

N.B. THO that here and elsewhere m fuckin glories in that strength. here, for example:

My departure depressed me less when I was no longer obliged to think of it alone, when I felt that the more normal and healthy exertions of my energetic friends, of Robert’s brothers-in-arms, were being applied to what was to be done (179)

but also, before we even GET to rachel:

“I’m furiously jealous,” Saint-Loup said to me, half laughing, half in earnest, alluding to the interminable conversations apart which I had been having with his friend. “Is it because you find him more intelligent than me? Do you like him better than me? Ah, well, I suppose he’s everything now, and no one else is to have a look in!” (Men who are enormously in love with a woman, who live in a society of woman-lovers, allow themselves pleasantries which others, seeing less innocence in them, would never dare to contemplate.) (153)

idk, like. i’ve had multiple people talk that way to me? but i possess what almost seems like an “only we can say it” sentiment about it--only people who don’t pass for straight men, maybe, or only weak people, neurotics. and saint-loup has that entire demeanor he seems to think he’s entitled to it as an intellectual or maybe just picks it up from m and rachel but it’s weird on people whose intellectualism does not compensate for frailty of body and/or “willpower,” idk. he does the fuckin... what do i mean, um. OH!--i associate his flirtatious self-deprecation w/ the thing women do in victorian books and in old movies; the thing lizaveta nikolaevna does in demons when she asks what’s his face whether he’d still wanna hang if she broke her leg. and possibly i’m wrong to see saint-loup’s comments as the outpost of a similar thing? but

“You know,” I said, “I did come to say good-bye to you the day I left Doncières. I’ve never had a chance to mention it. I waved to you in the street.”

“Don’t speak about it,” he replied, “I was so sorry. I passed you just outside the barracks, but I couldn’t stop because I was late already. I assure you I felt quite wretched about it.” (233)

haha yeah no i don’t think i’m wrong. so maybe it’s like the last few days’ irritation at hearing my mom employ the detached, bodily-self-contemptuous infodump tone i often use irl to talk about My Limitations--sitting like i do then, w/ that buzzardy hunch as though to tell a secret, and w/ the same aporetic expression--without having also to euphemize, circumlocute, pause and screw up her face and twist her wrist around for long intervals, blushing, trying to think of a less self-flattering [vulnerable] word for what she means, like i would in that situation. but i think it’s... also that i’m uncomfortable on m’s and rachel’s behalf? that in order not to intimidate or seem to condescend he adopts a piece of their demeanor that makes him look harmless. because like. another way in which saint-loup attempts to Regain His Dignity (or at least vent frustration) during his fight w/ rachel is that when the journalist w/ the cigar refuses to put it out, um,

“Would you mind, sir, throwing away your cigar? The smoke is bad for my friend.” [...]

“There’s no rule against smoking that I know of,” said the journalist. “If people aren’t well, they have only to stay at home.” [...]

“In any case, sir, you are not very civil,” observed Saint-Loup to the journalist, still in a mild and courteous tone, with the air of appraisal of a man judging retrospectively the rights and wrongs of an incident that is already closed. (239-40)

and see THIS IS ME this is exactly how i act when i’m angry at someone in public (incl. or maybe esp. if that someone is myself ha), fuckin carrying on another conversation in the background as proof ur Still Sane, BUT THEN

[A]fter the courteous words that he had just uttered, he brought down his hand with a resounding smack upon the journalist’s cheek. (240)

AND LIKE?? i don’t think this would creep me out nearly so much if the pretext (tho obv not the reason) for it weren’t. an ableist comment. “If people aren’t well, they have only to stay at home.” but i’ve more than once gotten angry w/ someone, chewed someone out, for saying something ableist to my friend (tho in the case that comes to mind the comment could be applied to me as well), and in my experience that kind of vicarious anger is?? because you know your friend’s upset about it but don’t know what to say to help them, so you resent the perp for showing you your own impotence, for distracting your and your friend’s attention from more important things w/ their needless judgmental bs. and THAT makes sense here? but without those other layers--of 1. “this insult implicates me also” and 2. “you have upset my friend and therefore obliged me to Avenge them since i don’t know how to make them feel better”--it’s... weird. it’s just so Not His Fight i guess, and. i’ve actually written a similar scene, too? in which case some of the interest was in like... the assumption by stronger people that we’ll be flattered to see them use their greater strength in defense of Our Honor, when. no, saint-loup; that’s a nonsensical n paternalistic pretext to vent ur own unrelated anger? m neither needs nor wants a healthy person to punish ableists’ contempt of his ill health? and in fact it’s embarrassing in the first place when ppl respond to our not making a fuss by making the fuss for us?? blugh! i don’t know. i can point out so many gross things about this but still am not satisfied i have identified The Thing About It that makes me so uncomfortable; maybe it’s just because at the same time i do understand both m’s fetishistic admiration of saint-loup’s strength and aristocratic solicitude and saint-loup’s paternalism itself. i’ve been on both sides, tho without the... punching. thing, ha. on that note:

Now that to the measured conversations of the diplomats, to the smiling arts of peace, had succeeded the furious onthrust of war, since blows lead to blows, I should not have been surprised to see the combatants wading in one another’s blood. ... Fortunately the journalist who, staggering back from the violence of the blow, had turned pale and hesitated for a moment, did not retaliate. (240-1)

M OH MY GOD ur purely academic understanding of How Fights Work! sees a guy 2 whose general opinion on violence he defers punch someone n is just like “well, shit, this is it, we’re all gonna die” fdlahgsdf ur......my favorite, and also, same, but possibly this is a mistake we both oughta quit making. Fuckin Liberals &c. &c.

*appropriate since he’s a sergeant!! but what i mean is e.g. when rachel (his gf w/ whom he needs to break up) makes him feel small in public saint-loup will then try to get back some dignity by turning to m like “You oughtn’t to stand about in the cigar smoke like that, it’ll make you ill” (3.237). it’s like what i said yesterday about my own solicitude--that it’s about liking to feel useful, liking for there to be a subject on which you know what to say. but it’s jarring to me to see this sense of return to familiar ground detached from same-feeling--to see the “useless person’s dream come true” phenomenon in a situation where saint-loup has no obvious reason to consider himself an expert other than his general aristocratic + busybodyish(!!!) tendency to anticipate people’s interests, to want to Know Everything about his friends.

#tell marcel i'm ignoring his text posts #romanticize ur mental illness 1k866 #icee straw kazoo #screalth tag #violence ///

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