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randomnameless · 2 years

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I saw a thread that argued that you can't have translation without localization and that the latter is always going to be tied to/dependent of the culture of its target audience. What are your thoughts on that especially in relation to FE? I think with this context, 3H/3Hopes(or Nopes) was always going to be different/lolcalized to cater to the Western audience (specifically America and its zeitgiest).

Partly horseshit.

Of course a translation has bias from the person/state doing the translation, and this bias should be taken into account whenever you want to use the translation.

But think about an academic paper, it is not translated, thus localised for scientist Y from country W, it has to be accessible and understandable by every scientist who understands the language you're using.

The target audience is "scientists" but it doesn't mean the paper is modified to cater to a certain audience.

In a way, yeah, finding "equivalent" words is a form of localisation, since you won't find the perfect match, but if a perfect match exists (idk, like contract and the French contrat) I don't think it'd be localisation?

Some other notions/concepts are impossible to translate with a word from the language of the "targeted audience". A "baguette tradition" is a specific type of baguette, and can't be translated as bagel, or the mundane "bread".

So then what? If someone writes "baguette tradition", that person isn't translating, but if they define it later in a bubble or in a footnote, it is still part of a localisation process : to bring something unknown to a targeted audience.

In a way, yes, a translator and ultimately a localiser will always have their own biases, so each translation/localisation has to take it into account.

That being said...

I can understand the “difference” because of the translator/localiser’s bias, but not the “pandering to a specific audience”.

Like, I partly grew up in the 4Kids era, and here in France, we had old anime being, uh, brought to a french audience since, iirc, the 80s. French children (people?) at that time wouldn’t be able to watch a show meant for children if the character had unfrench sounding name like, uh, Ryo Saeba. So it was turned in Nicky Larson.

Joey Wheeler being the “lolcalised” form of Jonouchi Katsuya, because, I suppose, back then, some people really really think US/Western children wouldn’t watch a “cartoon” with un-occidental sounding names.

Usopp (wordplay on Uso meaning lie) became the french Pipo (pipeau means a shitty lie), okay it works as a kind of translation but, uh... no? Just no? Don’t translate names ffs?

I remember the Shaman King anime from 4Kids keeping the “un-occidental” names, and the ceiling was broken, iirc, with the anime versions of Naruto and Bleach. Of course we still had early dubs with “Fire Style” instead of “Katon”, but by the mid 2000s, the barn was open and lo, children (at least here in France, that’s what I can talk about) could listen and read japanese words without a “perfect” translation.

Where am I going?

Well, we went from a ban on anything sounding too “foreign” for a certain audience to accept those names/words for this same audience, because, well, I don’t know, but I’m pretty sure it must have come with a general need and desire to bring the audience something new -

The works weren’t catered to an audience, instead, the audience was brought in that work, in that work’s world and “foreign” culture (i am ashamed but i had my first ramen after watching/reading too much Naruto)

Bleach’s Zanpakuto became common, while the translated “Soul Cutter” (iirc that’s the one?) was never used. Rukia’s deference to her older brother and superiors wasn’t toned down because here in France we never had (afair?) so much formality between siblings, and yet, the localised Bleach materials, let it be anime or manga, kept it.

More mundane, but the senpai/kouhai thingie?

Doesn’t exist here, and yet some works depicted it in it’s complicated mess, without needing to tuned it down to “cater to an audience” who’s not familiar with the concept.

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Now, back to Fodlan...

Suggesting, in 2019, that a certain audience cannot “deal” with a story where a religious organisation is not evil incarnate and someone who starts a conflict based on the “the ends justify the means” might not be completely full of crap is, imho, downright insulting.

We had a lot of people, when FE16 was released, who argued about IS’s POV and if the “unification boner” was a thinly veiled nod to a certain country’s rising (?) nationalism...

But what about the lolcalisation? Is it only playing with preexisting biases or, idk, their whitewashing of an imperialist who fights against “irrationality” and a religion to push her own values on countries she invades is supposed to be a nod at... something ?

For sure, this is a bad faith reading -

And yet, is it really complicated to have a story where a religious organisation that calls itself a church but is actually led by were-dragons who escaped a genocide and just try to help people around - is not the reason why the World is bad?

Take a certain movie that will not be aired in certain parts of the world because two women are holding hands - cultural norms, no matter what you think of them, commended the, idk, publishers not to release say movie in those countries.

What kind of similar thing exists in the “West” regarding... a religious organisation led by a dragon, and an emperor in red who wants to force their “ideals” by invading other countries? Imperialism good so let’s make it better? Religion BaD so lets highlight how it sucks?

And does it justify altering a game and the meaning of its quotes?

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Tl; Dr : Translation and localisation always comes with a bias from the translator/localiser, because they are human beings who were raised in a certain culture and even if they try to be as neutral as possible, they cannot offer a work that is 100% true and matches the original.

That being said, we’re in 2022 now - and while FE14′s dub was an artifact (”Suzukaze? No, our audience is too stupid, let’s shorten it to Kaze instead! Tsubaki? No, Subaki sounds better!”) - I still believe a work shouldn’t be translated/localised to “cater” to an audience, people managed to understand Zanpakuto and Katon, I am pretty sure an audience can also understand that a fictional church led by a dragon is not the Catholic Church, or that religion isn’t an inherently “BaD” concept.

It’s merely my opinion as a consumer and part of the audience of the localised works - but I think I am open-minded enough and ready to engage with a fictional world and its fictional organisations, without needing to fall back on some preexisting biases or concepts I am familiar with. Of course that’s not to say things can look similar to real life issues (i said similar, forget your degrees) and we can’t reflect on that, but it’s always supposed to be a reflection, and not what the audience is engaging with or seeing first.

When you go to a Korean Restaurant, you don’t order mac’n’cheese or a jambon-beurre. Even if that’s what you usually eat. If you end up ordering something that looks and tastes like mac’n’cheese? Then good for you, but it’s not mac’n’cheese. You can’t expect a Koren Restaurant to serve you a jambon-beurre.

If you go there and they only serve you mac’n’cheese or jambon-beurre, what is even the point of going in this restaurant? Why are other customers served somethign else but I still have to eat the same thing I’m used to at home?

alas who am i to talk about those things, i have no degree

#anon #replies #sorry if i took some time i wanted to articulate some thoughts #for sure several restaurants don't serve the 'usual' food served in country X it's always toned down to the general taste of the customers #but it's still something different #in FE Fodlan we had a lolcalisation that embraced the church BaD side #and if they really try to justify it be thinking 'well in our country church bad so i'll rewrite the game to depict church BaD' it's patheti #pathetic damn word limit #the cousin incest being lolcalised? Why not some people are puritans and prefer companions instead #but cousin incest exist in some parts of the world and you can't count on Treehouse to erase it everywhere you could find it #I really have a lot of feelings and thoughts about this way of localising if it wasn't apparent lol #stop taking your audience for plastic bags #they can run the extra mile and use their brains to understand or at least try to grasp a concept they're not familiar with #remember back then we had the fansub's words keikaku means plan #and even manga editors sometimes added some pages to explain X or Y #ultimately I think it all goes down to the respect you have for the original work #and how much you think you can deviate from it to bring a work to an audience #and a good dose of ethnocentrism #lolcalisation woes

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