spaceygrayz
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mentally unwell tvd stan • they/them
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John William Godward (British, 1861–1922) Campaspe, 1896; oil on canvas;230 x 115.5 cm.
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Joseph on Persia's new ig post
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just another throwback sunday >
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Scooby Doo, Where Are You!
S01E06 - What the Hex Going On? (1969)
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I am a romantic comedy girl. Why go to horror movies when they come to us?
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does the term wyvern ever show up outside if heraldry? Got in a silly argument about whether wyverns are dragons and the other person is adamant that wyverns are mundane animals while term dragon exclusively denotes demonic creatures which is a version of the Wyverns Are Not Dragons argument I've never hear before and really doesn't sound right to me, but you always have some really cool information I never knew so I figured Id ask
The thing with wyvern is that it's not directly connected to any mythological concepts. The word and its many relatives and derivatives - including the Welsh gwiber and the French vouivre - literally means "viper".
So you can find references using similar words... but they refer to dragons, serpents, vipers and their derivatives. Until heraldry took the term to mean a two legged dragon in the 1600s at the latest, it was synonymous with dragon or serpent (those are the same thing). The Sockburn Dragon, for instance, is referred to as a "monstrous and poysonous vermine or wyverne, and aske or werme".
In general, I go by what the text calls it. Doesn't matter how many legs it has or if it has wings or not, if the text calls it by a name then that's what it is.
Unfortunately a lot of modern retellings decide that, if a dragon is depicted with two legs, it has to be referred to as a wyvern, even though the original text uses dragon or worm or whatever term.
So is there something textually referred to as a wyvern? I used to think that the classic wyvern story was that of the wyvern of Coed-y-Moch or Llyn Cynwch in Wales.
(Illustration from Wonder Tales of Ancient Wales (1922))
(Cigarette card art (1936) from here)
But the original wasn't referred to as a wyvern! The English translation is wyvern, but the original Welsh refers to a gwiber!
So is this a reference to a wyvern? Are gwibers wyverns? Depends. Are guivres, wivres, and vouivres wyverns? Where do you want to draw the line? Some of these have a more developed folklore than the wyvern. You could take every reference to vipers and run with it, or you could count each variation as its own thing.
Incidentally, the name of the venomous weever fish is derived from the same viperw origin! And most of its names are dragony. There's E. vipera, T. draco, in English it's weever, in French it's vive, in Greek it's drakaina!
Venomous wyvern fish!
So in short: wyvern is more or less synonymous with serpent/dragon/viper, and only really became distinct when heraldry took it.
Even shorter answer: your friend's wrong, wyverns are dragony as fuck.
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i want to be kind. even when i think i’m forgetting how
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