Season 3 has been shot. As we cover Dong Zhuo vs the coalition, novel and historical, and a certain warrior of the south. Had @sunfin3k, @dongzhou3kingdoms, Baptiste, @catigereptile @the-archlich, Dennis for what we hope people will find a great and informative season. Expecting to start coming out in January with our two parter on chapter 5 of the novel. Hope everyone has a safe and fun festive period and see you at the start of 2024

Han Deep Dive

Our Han Deep Dive Episode is now out, to complete season 2. @sunfin3k, @dongzhou3kingdoms, @zgongjin and @fuyonggu reunite to talk about the problems the Later Han had been wrestling with for some time and which left it vulnerable by the time we come to it in the novel. Power, finances, struggles at court, concerns abroad and, thanks to Gongjin's studies in archaeology, the impact of changing climate.

Jude's first time editing so any feedback on how he can improve is welcome. ⁠Transcript⁠

Timings:

Problems at Court: 01:37

Climate Change: 28:53

Foreign Affairs: 43:29

Last Years of Peace: 56:48

Goodbye: 67:37

Artwork by Zhaolie

Music is Sao Meo Orchestral Mix by Doug Maxwell/Zac Zinger

Han Deep Dive Trailer

On Friday will be the closing episode of season 2, discussing the Han's decline with @sunfin3k, @dongzhou3kingdoms, @zgongjin and @fuyonggu reunited. Clips from eunuch discussions, military expenses and inconsistency, climate change, late reform while we discuss much more in the episode itself. So come join us for Friday's discussion. https://youtu.be/JGe1ZZAJjCs

Artwork by Zhaolie

Music is Sao Meo Orchestral Mix by Doug Maxwell/Zac Zinger

Do you think you've about exhausted things to talk about with respect to the 3 Kingdoms era?

Not at all.

This got very out of hand but I'm going to leave it as is.

Oh, sure, some subjects have been beaten to death. There's only so much you can say about the particular events that have been told and retold in folktales, opera, novels, and (in the modern age) movies, TV shows, and video games for the last 1800 years. There isn't a lot left to say about the most famous battles and individuals that hasn't been said already.

There's also a lot that is still relatively overlooked, outside of very specific circles. People who didn't get prominent roles in fictionalizations of the period are still pretty obscure. Events that aren't depicted in stories and adaptations don't get much discussion. That's the sort of thing I try to write about, like with my articles on the Crown Prince Affair (Part I | Part II) or my series on Yuan Shao and Gongsun Zan.

But the things I write about are just one very limited facet of the period's history. There's so much more to be said. The stuff I write about is probably the least meaningful. Ultimately it doesn't make much difference who won what battle or what faction took over a government. Individuals varied but all the governments of the time were fundamentally the same. No matter who took power in what region, it was going to be a Han style government, dominated by Han culture. Nothing meaningful was going to change, no matter which of our well-known warlords won. Their battles were largely irrelevant. There's a reason nothing meaningful changed in Shu when it was conquered by Wei, or Wu when conquered by Jin. There's a reason the Sima regime was only superficially different from that of the Cao, and why it really doesn't matter if, say, the Quan family had seized the throne of Wu. Despite individual differences they were all fundamentally the same.

To see what I mean, we don't have to look very far into the future. The collapse of western Jin meant the rise of non-Han polities in significant areas of the former Han/Jin empire. The governments of the Xiongnu, the Xianbei, and and other groups from outside of the Han culture were meaningfully different. Prolonged chaos in the northern portions of the empire resulted in mass movement to the south, into areas previously claimed by the Han people only in name but not in fact. The efforts of Wu and Shu (largely due to He Qi and Ma Zhong) to establish firm control over these regions laid the groundwork for the "sinicization" of southern China, but it was really only with the collapse of Western Jin that the new status quo was established. At the same time, we can also observe the so-called "barbarians" adopting many elements of Han culture to help them rule their new empires.

You could spend your whole career studying something like that.

You could analyze the literature of the period and compare different style and composition across different years and regions. You could dig deep into the economics and study things like government monopolies on key industries, and contrast the different approaches taken by the various rulers of the era. You could study all the material left by civilians who had no part in the "great affairs" of the time. You could study how infrastructure projects meant to support warfare (like the many canals Wei dug) impacted trade and travel for others. You could study the visual arts; paintings, sculptures, miniatures, etc. And all of that gets much more complicated and interesting when you reach beyond the Han culture, into the areas and eras where non-Han influences achieved supremacy and influenced the existing culture.

The era produced some of China's most influential figures whose contributions are far more meaningful than the battles fought by its various generals. Zhong Yao's calligraphy was so influential that we still imitate his writing today. Pei Xiu was one of the most important cartographers in China's extensive history. Hua Tuo's scientific approach to medicine was revolutionary in its time. Du Kui and Xun Xu made extraordinary contributions to music. There are so many others to speak of.

Sociology. Visual arts. Performing arts. Economics. Mathematics. Literature. Technology. The list goes on and on and on. There is absolutely no shortage of new things to study and talk about. A very accessible example is the deep dive @discourseofthethreekingdoms did on the theology of the Yellow Turbans. I don't think I've ever heard that much said about them anywhere. It was a significant and meaningful look at the actual beliefs and ideology of a group usually just dismissed as rebellious malcontents deceived by charismatic opportunists.

Now, none of that is what I generally write about. A big part of that is because that's serious academic work. It's hard, it's complicated, and it requires both resources and training I don't have to get it right. I'm not any kind of real academic. There are people doing this work, and because it doesn't have mass appeal they don't get the kind of credit they deserve, but that's the kind of work that actually matters. People like to read about wars and battles and politics and don't give the same attention to these much more serious and meaningful subjects. It's a damn shame, really, and I can only hope that the ones doing the important work at least receive the respect of their peers.

And if I'm being fully honest, even if I did have the training and resources it takes to do the important work, that's not where my passion is.

I'm a storyteller.

I'm fascinated by these people and their lives. When I get invested in a particular historical era, it's because I find it to be filled with a wide variety of very interesting individuals whose stories I love, and whose stories I want to try to share with others. I like to tell the stories I think don't get told enough; or that get so obscured by fictionalization that the real people involved become unrecognizable. That does end up with me writing about a lot of battles and politicking, because that's where we get a lot of these stories from. When I believe a story is left untold (like with the Crown Prince Affair) I want to tell it. When I believe that a story is being misrepresented, I want to try and correct it. The reason I get so passionate about "history vs. fiction" is because these people were real. Their accomplishments and failures were real. Their triumphs and tragedies were real. Every single name you see was a full human being exactly as complex as you are; and so is every single anonymous soldier and civilian killed in their pointless wars.

Some of these stories have been told and retold so many times that there's nothing interesting left to say. But there are so many others that remain in relative obscurity, and ones where the truth has become obscured over time. That's mostly what I spend my time writing about now.

Not Ideal Party Guest coming on Friday with @sunfin3k, @dongzhou3kingdoms and @the-archlich, discussing what Dong Zhuo did once he had control at court, the formidable Dowager He, exactly why Steve will not be inviting Cao Cao to his next party and a sad poem.

@sunfin3k and @dongzhou3kingdoms are joined by @the-archlich (do also check out his Classical Amateur) to discuss chapter 4: Dong Zhuo’s use of power now he has the Empire in his grasp, treatment of the royal family including the formidable Dowager He and a poem from the once Emperor (from Yang Zhengyuan’s translations in Last Emperor) and how Cao Cao’s plots really put him off Steve’s guest list.

Transcript and as well as our podcasts, you can also have it on youtube.

Timings: 

02:51 Dong Zhuo in control

20:41: What to do with an Emperor

31:05 Cao Cao Intervenes

51:33 End Phase

Artwork by Zhaolie

Music is Sao Meo Orchestral Mix by Doug Maxwell/Zac Zinger

Not Ideal Party Guest coming on Friday with @sunfin3k, @dongzhou3kingdoms and @the-archlich, discussing what Dong Zhuo did once he had control at court, the formidable Dowager He, exactly why Steve will not be inviting Cao Cao to his next party and a sad poem.

@sunfin3k AI has advanced so far, can we replace your voice with text to speech?

Otherwise it's great stuff. I love the constant need to bring up that not EVERY SINGLE EUNUCH wasn't some evil schemer. One of those obvious things that isn't obvious...

Start off the next episode reminding the audience.

Have you been asked to appear in the 3K podcast?

Yep. Early before any episodes were released, but I don't have much to discuss. At least about that era unless Gongsun Du comes up I guess. They are doing a great job through and I'd always encourage people to listen.

Though I apologize in advance for Sun Fin's accent. Offensively British.

Aaron from our first episode has this useful contextual comment (reposted with permission) about eunuch portrayal in the novel

"One of the reasons the eunuchs are held in such disdain in the novel has a lot to do with the history throughout China up to when the novel was written (and even during its editing by Mao Zonggang). Almost every time without a doubt, eunuchs became a significant source of corruption in the dynasty (accepting bribes from individuals who want to have closer access to the emperor), that they developed the reputation of always being corrupt, greedy, untrustworthy and so on.

The novel is just reflecting the cultural aspects of the time. Although an interesting point to make is that during the Han and up to the Tang dynasty, there was the whole "tug of war" as it were between the eunuchs and hereditary nobles. But then in the Song dynasty, not only do eunuchs have their power curtailed, but so do the hereditary nobles. Instead the power began to shift to the bureaucrats who passed the imperial examinations (who for the most part came from well-off families that didn't themselves have any significant source of power other than being wealthy).

Eunuchs themselves were still retained as an important part of palatial management though, as they had a function that no one else could do reliably, precisely because they could not impregnate the Emperor's wives/concubines/maids, etc. (Lao Ai of the Qin being a notable exception of a eunuch who had a fake castration and had an affair with Qin Shi Huang's mother, fathering two children with her)."

Chapter 3, Fire and Blood. @sunfin3k and @dongzhou3kingdoms joined by @catigereptile to discuss chapter 3 of the novel: He Jin’s clash with the eunuchs, flight of princes and the arrival of the corrupt general Dong Zhuo, finding a vacuum of power amidst the fire and chaos. We say hello to one of the great warriors in Lu Bu, great of strength but perhaps not in filial loyalty. 

We worked on the sound so we are hoping for a more even pitch. Let us know if that worked for you. Transcript and can be seen on youtube

Timings: 

He Jin vs Eunuchs: 02:33

Dong Zhuo: 27:15

Han Princes: 37:36

Ding Yuan vs Lu Bu: 44:39

End phase: 59:30

Artwork by Zhaolie

Music is Sao Meo Orchestral Mix by Doug Maxwell/Zac Zinger

Episode 3 Trailer

Trailer for Blood and Fire, our chapter 3 of the Romance episodes, with @sunfin3k, @dongzhou3kingdoms and @catigereptile coming out this Friday.

Chaos at the capital, arrival of great warriors and dangerous villains plus what not to get Steve all coming soon.

Our apologies for being away for so long but next week sees the start of phase 2 beginning  with chapter 3 of the novel with Cat. We have done a bit of work on equalising the sound for future episodes so hopefully it will be easier on the ear.

Will be a season of two novel episodes and a deep dive and we are very excited with the guests, from this community, we have on this wave of episodes. We hope you will enjoy the episodes and the figures from the 3kingdoms communities' great contributions. 

Deep Dive: Yellow Dreams Never Die

@dongzhou3kingdoms hosts @sunfin3k and @zgongjin as they return to discuss the Yellow Turbans in our first deep dive episode. Topics of conversation are the history of the Turbans, their beliefs, what we know of them, who they were and why things went so badly for them.

Our first deep dive, focused solely on the history of the subject (in this case, the Turbans) rather then a novel chapter and it's themes. When a major character dies or a major appropriate subject comes up, we are hoping to have one of these

Date of Taiping Jing article

Chapter timings 01:03 What We Know 15:05 Context in which they rose 21:42 Turban plot 29:40 The War 48:43 Aftermath

All our platforms, podcast or youtube

Transcript

Feedback welcome

1000th listen

According to @spotify podcasts (formerly Anchor) data: Yesterday, we reached over 1,000 listens (not listeners and not counting youtube numbers) in just under two months since release of our opening trailer.

Thank you to everyone who has been listening and hopefully enjoying it. Some data:

Our actual audience numbers, from memory, so far has been over a hundred for the two novel based episodes (first has 430 listens, second has 241), dips into 80-90's mark for Turban deep dive (81) and interview (not been out full week but approaching 50 listens), plus trailers.

We have 37 Spotify subscribers, 35 here, 45 on youtube and 19 on tumblr (hello). Our main audience seems to be UK (55%), followed by US (21%) with Mexico at 2% but have had listeners from Middle East, Asia, South America, Africa, Caribbean and Australia.

Of our 32 podcast platforms, Samsung seems the most popular platform at 63%, Spotify at 12% (Anchor provided 3% on top of that) and Apple just under 6%

Interview with Baptiste Pinson Wu

On youtube and episode link

With his second book three kingdoms Heroes of Chaos book launched this week, @sunfin3k and @dongzhou3kingdoms interview (at the time, was not our editor) about his first book Yellow Sky Revolt, the main character Liao Hua, the Yellow Turbans, Cao Cao and the three kingdoms generally. A friendly chat, we decided to let this run the full length. This interview is going to relax our no spoiler about the era rule so avoid if you wish to avoid hearing about what happens beyond the Yellow Turbans.

Baptiste Pinson Wu various media can be found here including his website, his youtube channel Back in Fiction and twitter while his books can be found on likes of Amazon and Good Reads.

Steve on Tumblr and Jude on tumblr have both reviewed the first book while the historian Rafe De Crespigny calls it a tremendous achievement. If looking for non-spoilery reviews, we suggest looking at ToriTalks: she is someone who's coming to Yellow Sky Revolt unfamiliar with the era, that will give you a good idea how accessible it is for you 

This is the end of our first season, The Rise of the Yellow Sky, with season 2 going to be following on the chaos at the Han court, chapters 3 and 4 of the novel and another deep dive with new and existing guests. One of the new guests has a cat, another is a member of the undead. Will be a delay till season two but we hope to see you again soon.

Chapter timings

00:00 Intro

02:15 Book Writing

19:15 Three Kingdoms

42:55 Yellow Turbans

52:50 Cao Cao

01:11:29 Book Two Heroes of Chaos and Newsletter

Transcript

Full list of platforms

Artwork with permission from Baptiste

Music is Sao Meo Orchestral Mix by Doug Maxwell/Zac Zinger

Will be in episode 4 of our novel themed episodes

Is there anything to know about Liu Bian, the deposed emperor?

A few things, and I think you’ll hear all of them on the @discourseofthethreekingdoms podcast.