I think this shitshow with Toshiro stems from the trend of people INSISTING that interpersonal conflict must be a moral failing. Like I think there's something to be said about how people afford so much less patience to people who are autistic in the "wrong" ways, but also Laios and Toshiro just clash on a fundamental level that has nothing to do with that. Hell, you could read Toshiro as autistic as well. People related to Laios' side of the argument but instead of getting any nuance out of it they started projecting their experiences with ableist people onto Toshiro.

AGREE AGREE AGREE. i think that Fandom Brain gets people very used to thinking of conflicts in terms of "who is the bad guy and who is the good guy", so when they encounter a more nuanced conflict they don't really know what to do. i don't think toshiro is a bad person at all, in his conflict with laios he's just exhausted and starving and has been pushed to the limit and from his perspective, laios doesn't even seem that emotionally affected by the situation. i don't think what he said was right and it was pretty cruel, but i don't think he's a villain or deserves to be permanently hated as a character just bc he fucked up this time lol

also yeah you could definitely read him as autistic, and i think that highlights an issue in the autistic community in general bc like....... a lot of autistic people have conflicting needs which can lead to conflict between them/make them unable to stand being around each other. and it's not because either of them are neurotypical or bad people, they're just incompatible. like autistic people who loudly stim vocally and autistic people who meltdown when they have to be around loud noises, for example. it doesn't mean either of them is bad or not autistic, just that they have conflicting needs

i 100% agree with the last part too. i disliked toshiro at first myself bc i had been (and still do ngl) projecting onto laios hard and the conflict they had reminded me of times when people have been mean or angry at me irl for social blunders i've made unintentionally, or when someone i thought liked me/was my friend turned out to actually hate me. it's a common experience for autistic people and that scene resonates with that! but i think it also helps to take a step back from projecting our own traumatic experiences onto the scene and just look at it objectively. laios isn't perfect either and he's the one who actually starts the physical fight by slapping toshiro (i feel like i don't see many people mention this lol). i feel super bad for him in that scene but he's not a perfect victim and has done things wrong himself too

as an autistic person i've also been in situations where i can relate to toshiro too lol, like where someone is overly physically and emotionally familiar with me when we don't know each other well and i've wanted them to back off but haven't been sure how to say it without hurting their feelings. this kind of conflict is far from just being a "neurotypical vs neurodivergent" thing as a lot of people portray it in the fandom

idk i just wish people would think a little more deeply about the scene and put their own emotions and experiences aside to instead consider the conflict with the added context of the individual characters and their respective cultures + the situation they're in. people don't have to like toshiro but i wish they wouldn't paint him as a villain or make up awful shit about him just to justify their feelings when he isn't even that bad of a dude in canon yknow 😑. also we literally see him at rock bottom struggling and freaking out and i think that's important to remember. in a different context i doubt he would have ever said those things to laios

I think this shitshow with Toshiro stems from the trend of people INSISTING that interpersonal conflict must be a moral failing. Like I think there's something to be said about how people afford so much less patience to people who are autistic in the "wrong" ways, but also Laios and Toshiro just clash on a fundamental level that has nothing to do with that. Hell, you could read Toshiro as autistic as well. People related to Laios' side of the argument but instead of getting any nuance out of it they started projecting their experiences with ableist people onto Toshiro.

AGREE AGREE AGREE. i think that Fandom Brain gets people very used to thinking of conflicts in terms of "who is the bad guy and who is the good guy", so when they encounter a more nuanced conflict they don't really know what to do. i don't think toshiro is a bad person at all, in his conflict with laios he's just exhausted and starving and has been pushed to the limit and from his perspective, laios doesn't even seem that emotionally affected by the situation. i don't think what he said was right and it was pretty cruel, but i don't think he's a villain or deserves to be permanently hated as a character just bc he fucked up this time lol

also yeah you could definitely read him as autistic, and i think that highlights an issue in the autistic community in general bc like....... a lot of autistic people have conflicting needs which can lead to conflict between them/make them unable to stand being around each other. and it's not because either of them are neurotypical or bad people, they're just incompatible. like autistic people who loudly stim vocally and autistic people who meltdown when they have to be around loud noises, for example. it doesn't mean either of them is bad or not autistic, just that they have conflicting needs

i 100% agree with the last part too. i disliked toshiro at first myself bc i had been (and still do ngl) projecting onto laios hard and the conflict they had reminded me of times when people have been mean or angry at me irl for social blunders i've made unintentionally, or when someone i thought liked me/was my friend turned out to actually hate me. it's a common experience for autistic people and that scene resonates with that! but i think it also helps to take a step back from projecting our own traumatic experiences onto the scene and just look at it objectively. laios isn't perfect either and he's the one who actually starts the physical fight by slapping toshiro (i feel like i don't see many people mention this lol). i feel super bad for him in that scene but he's not a perfect victim and has done things wrong himself too

as an autistic person i've also been in situations where i can relate to toshiro too lol, like where someone is overly physically and emotionally familiar with me when we don't know each other well and i've wanted them to back off but haven't been sure how to say it without hurting their feelings. this kind of conflict is far from just being a "neurotypical vs neurodivergent" thing as a lot of people portray it in the fandom

idk i just wish people would think a little more deeply about the scene and put their own emotions and experiences aside to instead consider the conflict with the added context of the individual characters and their respective cultures + the situation they're in. people don't have to like toshiro but i wish they wouldn't paint him as a villain or make up awful shit about him just to justify their feelings when he isn't even that bad of a dude in canon yknow 😑. also we literally see him at rock bottom struggling and freaking out and i think that's important to remember. in a different context i doubt he would have ever said those things to laios

I love shuro as a neurodivergent person because I relate to him a lot more than all the other types of neurodivergecy on display in the show tbh. like. stop calling him 'the only neurotypical one' or whatever this man is the kind of guy who grew up and he realised that something was weird or socially unacceptable about his behaviour and he tried to mask it so hard and try so hard to be normal that he starts to resent the neurotypical people who *don't* do that or not even understand that they are acting in a socially 'unacceptable' way and he both is jealous of them being who they are and also kinda siding against them with the 'normal' people so he can feel seen as more normal and usually he ends up being friends with the more neurodivergent people because it's a lot easier for him to make friends there but his self-imposed masking and his wish to be seen as 'normal' by the 'normal' people kinda make him resent his friends in a way because THEY aren't trying to hold up to the same standard of 'normality' as he does

One thing I’ll say about the hate for Kabru and Toshiro is how I feel hurt by it not as a poc but as someone who has the same traits as them. I hate that people are able to understand that Laios can’t read the room but have a hard time understanding why Toshiro didn’t communicate/validate only Laios feelings and not Toshiro’s. Ofc he should have and that’s a flaw of his character. But I just feel so awful seeing people not understanding that if Toshiro was able to communicate he would have. I’m the same way. I’m a pushover, I let people cross my boundaries and I struggle with communicating my feelings.

Like imagine relating to Toshiro AND Laios. I’ve had someone who didn’t like me and said something behind my back treat me as if we were friends. And I’ve struggled to be open about my feelings when people bothered me causing me to snap and seem mean/rude.

The Toshiro hate is definitely valid and completely understandable especially as an autistic person who’s dealt with what Laios is going through. But the way people speak about Toshiro just makes me feel also awful and uncomfortable

at this point, it's getting annoying seeing these types of videos

three wallaces

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making jigsaw apprentices ponies pt 1/? MARKIEEEE💋💋

Bro he’s a just funny lookin little fella, he’s quite the comedic relief. I love how yall find a short king fatass man, who fathers probably a 100 kids, who is also acts a bitch with those bitchy ass lips and acts like the bossy tough guy when he actually isn’t. Bro thinks he’s ‘him’, but when the time comes he gets tied to a chair, he’ll become ‘her’.

Vivziepop fandom still worst, sky still blue.

Hoffman is mean high school girl coded to me and I will always present him that way.

Hoffman and who

change the wife to sister and it make sense

and because i apparently wasnt done drawing for the night at 2:30 AM:

a Mark Hoffman

saw victims: oh god some sicko is watching us through those mirrors!

Mark Hoffman: *admiring his own reflection*

this is Hoffman and Strahm to me

you gotta be kidding me

tired of being a cunt bc why do i make the hoffman face when im focused

babygirl hoffman

click here for the source for 101 (268x151) costas mandylor gifs from saw 3. please like and reblog if you intend on using. full rules can be found on my page :) content tw: blood/bodies/IT'S A SAW MOVIE

hey check this thing i made out👎