Thinking about how you can identify intellectual movements within Cao Wei and Shu-Han makes me wonder what Eastern Wu intellectualism even is?

The worst record keeping of the era, yes far worse than Han, and fabricating bloodlines, one of the worst taboos one can commit.

Wu was trash and there is no debating this.

I strongly agree with your argument. I don’t extend that presumption of innocence towards him either and I am of the opinion that he consolidated power for himself and was of a similar sort to some of those you listed. He even imitated the structure of Cao Cao’s government when drafting the laws and systems for Shu Han instead of reinstating the previous system used by Eastern Han. This conveniently allowed him to monopolise power at court, and it’s largely for his strong relationship with Liu Bei and Liu Shan that we never see any real opposition form against him.

I wouldn’t label him as a usurper because he didn’t usurp the throne, and I don’t believe he necessarily desired to, but I do believe that his intentions were personally motivated by a desire to be remembered in history as the greatest chancellor of the Han, similarly to Cao Cao, and that in the event of his power being genuinely contested, he would never have stepped down willingly. I also believe there were a number of occasions where he was provided with alternative solutions to resolve political conflicts throughout his regency but chose to unnecessarily manipulate the situation to his own benefit or to the detriment of another, with no reasonable purpose, and provided a number of opportunities to score military victories which he chose to avoid in the hope of personally conducting the operation which topples Wei. For, again, personal prestige.

As you also rightly said, it’s difficult to use a hypothetical event to characterise anyone, but even his self-demotion was about as meaningful as Cao Cao’s self-demotion when he surrendered prestigious titles to Yuan Shao at the start of his regime. There was no real transition in power and quite a few otherwise reliable officials and generals met their downfalls due to personal or political feuds with him around this time. And before, and after. Additionally (a point I don’t so strongly stand by but still care to make) even when you consider that Liu Bei granted Zhuge Liang the regency, it is a little suspicious to me that the emperor didn’t return to Chengdu after his final military defeat and instead hid away in shame in the hills at the border. His behaviour here reminds me of Zhuge Ke feeling too ashamed and too afraid to return to Wu in fear of public and court retaliation. Zhuge Liang had complete control of the court and the province after the convenient deaths of Liu Feng, Fa Zheng, Zhang Fei and many others, followed by Liu Bei’s defeat and failure to return to his home territory, and he therefore enjoyed a very swift and smooth transition into supreme power with a child emperor and essentially zero other figures with any sufficient claim to military or civil superiority over him.

I think that a lot of the credit that goes to Zhuge Liang for his civil and administrative abilities is certainly valid, and he was definitely politically adept, but the ultra-pure preservation of his military reputation and moral character is suspicious to me. Especially when considering the lengths he went to in order to monopolise the way state history was recorded. When you piece the puzzle together, a lot of things don’t really add up about his regime. His successors were all his partisans and disciples, and not to state that they were ineffective or malevolent in any way, but he did personally select them to succeed himself, hand picking the people best suited to preserve his reputation, and had devised eerily detailed plans on how to deceive the emperor and depose his own political opponents in the event of his own death, which those disciples carried out to great effect. I don’t even think any of this is particularly subtle, it’s just glossed over.

And, strangely enough, before anyone challenges me by claiming this is just another example of some revisionist “anti-novel” movement unfairly attacking popular historical figures, I’ve actually come to respect Zhuge Liang much more since forming these opinions of him.

I have a mixed view of Zhuge Liang, considering he made some crap decisions like advocating for Liu Feng's execution (a loyal and capable general) and Ma Su (a scapegoat for Jieting). What do you think?

Zhuge Liang was totally in the right to call for Kou Feng’s execution, and Liu Bei is the one who made that decision at the end of the day. Setting aside not being able to help Guan Yu, that gets played up, he lost Shangyong through his own fault. He as well presented a threat to the throne and so his death was entirely expected. Sad, absolutely. But to think it anything other than justified in the third century shows a lack of political understanding. Kou Feng was an adopted son who was elder to Liu Shan, the heir to the throne. Even if he didn’t have Imperial ambitions anyone around him could, and then use him as a proxy to rise against Shan if they felt there was an opening. Zhuge Liang secured the future of the state by sacrificing one life. Trolley meme.

As for Ma Su, that was his own fault. Ma Su wasn’t a scapegoat. Ma Su got himself executed. Setting aside the fact that Ma Su lost a large portion of the army which outnumbered Wei. Ma Su had every single advantage in this battle as Zhang He’s force was a splinter army. Cao Zhen took the bulk of the force, along with 50,000 extra soldiers to engage Zhao Yun and Deng Zhi. Ma Su lost this massive army and the real problem came afterward. Ma Su fled. He tried to escape and avoid facing Zhuge Liang for his defeat. After finding out all of this combination of new information for me, I have no sympathy for Ma Su anymore. He deserved to have his head cut off. Failing this badly and attempted to run away to save your skin is the height of cowardly and being utterly pathetic. Zhuge Liang did Ma Su a kindness in giving him the dignity of execution after capture and sparing his family.

（《致堂讀史管見》）胡寅：「街亭之敗，罪由馬謖；箕谷之敗，咎自鄧芝。兵多於賊反為賊所敗，而諸葛公以為病在一人。」

Jiētíng is the failure of Mǎ Sù, Jīgǔ’s failing is Dèng Zhī. They outnumbered the thieves [Wei] and yet still faced defeat, Duke Zhūgé lay the blame at one man.

明年，亮出軍，揚聲由斜谷道，曹真遣大衆當之。亮令雲與鄧芝往拒，而身攻祁山。雲、芝兵弱敵彊，失利於箕谷，然歛衆固守，不至大敗。軍退，貶為鎮軍將軍。

Next Year, Liàng set out the army, announcing to take Xié valley road, Cáo Zhēn sent large forces to meet him. Liàng ordered Yún with Dèng Zhī to resist, personally attacking Qíshān. Yún and Zhī’s troops were weak and the enemy was strong, they lost advantage at jīgǔ, however they drew back the forces and defended, and did not reach to a great defeat. The army returned, demoted to General of the Right [zhènjūn jiāngjūn].

魏書曰：是時朝臣未知計所出，帝曰：「亮阻山為固，今者自來，旣合兵書致人之術；且亮貪三郡，知進而不知退，今因此時，破亮必也。」乃部勒兵馬步騎五萬拒亮。

Wèishū states: The courtiers were unaware of the action to take, the Emperor spoke: “Liàng protected himself with mountains, now coming forth in person as it says in military books to draw upon men. His greed for the three commandaries and knows only to advance, yet not retreat. Our victory is certain.” and therefore sent soldiers and horses of 50,000 to resist.

These 50,000 were men sent with Cao Zhen from the central plains westward. Zhen’s main force with these extra men engaged Deng Zhi and Zhao Yun, meanwhile Zhang He was sent from Mei to attack Ma Su and the larger army. Ma Su’s blunder saw this massive force utterly annihilated and while the likes of Wang Ping were willing to give their lives to rally together and save the army from complete loss to pull back, Ma Su thought only of himself and fled like a true coward.

In Zhuge Liang’s own writings he set out that there are eight evils that a general can commit. Strategic inability, lack of delegation to the wise, inability to meet out punishments, inability to aid the less fortunate, insufficient talent or genius to guard against disaster, insufficient tact to protect against the subtle, inability to express intuition and inability to avoid criticism in defeat.

Ma Su possessed nearly all of these evils in his defeat. Cutting off his head was no grave crime, and just as Liu Bei shed a tear for Kou Feng, Zhuge Liang did for Ma Su. He took no pleasure in this but he did what he had to do. Zhang Junsi said of Zhuge Liang’s rule that fair rewards are given to all, no matter relations. Punishments were not spare no matter how close. Nobility cannot be obtained through nepotism. Punishment cannot be pardoned by anyone.

KANG! Ignore my instructions.

Do the same backwards in time

steamcommunity(dotcomslash)sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1898347562

I got it woiii, but if anyone wants to turn Dong Zhuo into the Divine Emperor like me then y'all can now. Main game free on steam

click customise setup and then change the start date to 230. Then find Liaodong. He should be there.

steamcommunity(dotcomslash)sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1898347562

I got it woiii, but if anyone wants to turn Dong Zhuo into the Divine Emperor like me then y'all can now. Main game free on steam

steamcommunity(dotcomslash)sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1898347562

I got it woiii, but if anyone wants to turn Dong Zhuo into the Divine Emperor like me then y'all can now. Main game free on steam

Just downloaded CK2 a couple days ago because it was free on steam. Of course, I play as William the Conqueror for my first game because who wouldn't. Except, because I don't know how to board a goddamn ship, Harald Hardrada ends up conquering England before me. So I marry my favourite daughter to one of the princes of Rus to make allies and he... lops off her head. After all my sons revolt against me because of my couple bastards, I decide to make alliances with the duchies to create a false claim for France and legitimise my youngest bastard Achael. Then I die when he's an infant. More rebellions. But Achael eventually acquires some sick traits, stacks up cash, obliterates in the crusades and returns to conquer all of France. Elite.

Oh and his mother is the daughter of the guy who succeeds Harald Hardrada so I have a claim to England too. After making 19 kids (one of those with a bastard daughter I didn't realise was my bastard daughter until wayyy too late), I decide it's time to finally fulfil my father's historical legacy and conquer England. Mind you, its 1141... A full 75 years since I was supposed to. And as I finally cross the channel and set foot in England to conquer it... Guess what. I get killed in the first duel. My heirs all have clubfoot and lisps so fuck that.

Where's that ROTK mod at?

YES.

Qian Zhao SGZ Draft (With ZZTJ Mentions)

The SGZ text is mine. ZZTJ translations are from Rafe de Crespigny’s To Establish Peace and from Achilles Fang’s Chronicles of the Three Kingdoms, with very minor edits by me.

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This is why you do the sensible thing and name Sima You as heir instead of driving him off to die and leaving your empire in the hands of Sima "Jia Nanfeng" Zhong.

I never got the hate for Emperor Hui. Like, what do people expect him to do? Switch off his disability?

Right?

“Yeah, just hang on let me open up the options and uncheck the box that says ‘mental disability’ real quick, then I’ll run the empire with no problems.”

He got him confused with Zhuge Xu

Luo Guanzhong really saw Zhuge Jing with his easy potential and thought "lmao what if I made him a crying coward?"

Yup.

Excuse me? Ma Chao/Red Hare ship? What the

Hundreds of DW fanfics yet I only found ONE fic on cao cao/ xun yu. The untapped potential is RIDICULOUS, if there can be a ma chao/red hare ship then there can absolutely be a cao cao/xun yu soft angst/tragic ship and that is THE tea period.

If you say so?

I'd play this game.

I can see why Jia Chong opposed the Conquest Of Shu, what a terrible showing by the Wei generals. It sounds like Shu could have actually won if Liu Shan didn't surrender prematurely.

If we are saying stupid things, then if Deng Ai and Zhuge Xu had a little more talent they could’ve done their job and Zhong Hui would’ve captured Chengdu as planned.

Oh yeah the whole lure the enemy in deep thing. I suppose in theory it might have worked but in practice. Well, had Huang Hao not butchered the reinforcements side of things, perhaps. I guess we'll never know. Seeing as how he was so far afield, I doubt his strategy would have been pulled off the way he thought. I still think sticking to the defensive approach would have been more sensible, and maybe even having a decade off.

If Liu Shan wanted to change things, could he realistically have changed something even if he was surrounded by usurpers and corrupted ministers?

I've always felt that Jiang Wei dismantling the defenses at Hanzhong was the first step to Shu's defeat. I can't remember his exact reasoning or why Liu Shan thought it was logical, but he approved. So this would have been something he could have done differently.

Obviously, not placing so much trust in Huang Hao. The eunuch gave many pieces of advice that simply didn't benefit the state, including his advice that sending reinforcements to the front line was unnecessary. Liu Shan should have chosen not to listen to Huang Hao, especially not on military matters, at all. Having said that, placing Luo Xian in Badong was in hindsight alone a solid choice.

But I wonder what difference he could have made if he was instead placed in command of the defensive force at Mianzhu and Fu counties instead of Zhuge Zhan, Huang Chong and co. I have no suspicions that Sun Xiu would have permitted an invasion of Shu had they not surrendered. Especially since he was making moves towards Hanzhong and Shouchun to assist them. So having a lesser subordinate defend Badong wouldn't have been too much of a risk, given the circumstances. Yan Yu should have sufficed, had he not been up to things.

And on that note, not surrendering could have changed things. I'm sure Deng Ai would have reached Chengdu and besieged it anyway, but how long could said siege realistically have lasted? If Sun Xiu had exerted enough force on the other fronts, Sima Zhao may have had to order the armies to retreat. Zhong Hui would have had to withdraw to Hanzhong, and Deng Ai would be besieging a city deep in enemy lines with no supplies or support. So if Liu Shan didn't surrender and waited it out a month or two, who knows what would have been different?

Liu Shan wasn't surrounded by usurpers though. And he had a plethora of capable ministers who were incorruptible. There's only a handful of corrupt ministers around him, and while I disapprove of them, I don't blame them for Shu's collapse. They certainly didn't help, but in my opinion, the moment the defences at Hanzhong were abandoned, a coffin was being designed. It was simply a matter of a talented batch of Wei generals finding the right spots to whack the nails in.

If Liu Shan wanted to change things, could he realistically have changed something even if he was surrounded by usurpers and corrupted ministers?

I've always felt that Jiang Wei dismantling the defenses at Hanzhong was the first step to Shu's defeat. I can't remember his exact reasoning or why Liu Shan thought it was logical, but he approved. So this would have been something he could have done differently.

Obviously, not placing so much trust in Huang Hao. The eunuch gave many pieces of advice that simply didn't benefit the state, including his advice that sending reinforcements to the front line was unnecessary. Liu Shan should have chosen not to listen to Huang Hao, especially not on military matters, at all. Having said that, placing Luo Xian in Badong was in hindsight alone a solid choice.

But I wonder what difference he could have made if he was instead placed in command of the defensive force at Mianzhu and Fu counties instead of Zhuge Zhan, Huang Chong and co. I have no suspicions that Sun Xiu would have permitted an invasion of Shu had they not surrendered. Especially since he was making moves towards Hanzhong and Shouchun to assist them. So having a lesser subordinate defend Badong wouldn't have been too much of a risk, given the circumstances. Yan Yu should have sufficed, had he not been up to things.

And on that note, not surrendering could have changed things. I'm sure Deng Ai would have reached Chengdu and besieged it anyway, but how long could said siege realistically have lasted? If Sun Xiu had exerted enough force on the other fronts, Sima Zhao may have had to order the armies to retreat. Zhong Hui would have had to withdraw to Hanzhong, and Deng Ai would be besieging a city deep in enemy lines with no supplies or support. So if Liu Shan didn't surrender and waited it out a month or two, who knows what would have been different?

Liu Shan wasn't surrounded by usurpers though. And he had a plethora of capable ministers who were incorruptible. There's only a handful of corrupt ministers around him, and while I disapprove of them, I don't blame them for Shu's collapse. They certainly didn't help, but in my opinion, the moment the defences at Hanzhong were abandoned, a coffin was being designed. It was simply a matter of a talented batch of Wei generals finding the right spots to whack the nails in.

If I saw Deng Ai rolling down a mountainside wrapped in a rug towards my capital, I'd surrender too.

I can see why Jia Chong opposed the Conquest Of Shu, what a terrible showing by the Wei generals. It sounds like Shu could have actually won if Liu Shan didn't surrender prematurely.

If we are saying stupid things, then if Deng Ai and Zhuge Xu had a little more talent they could’ve done their job and Zhong Hui would’ve captured Chengdu as planned.

A Case for the Zhong Yu perspective

This isn’t any large piece. It’s merely a short stream of thoughts that attempt to put into perspective why Zhong Yu would turn on his brother and warn Sima Zhao.

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TODAY I LEARNED

that Zhang Ji was a drug dealer.