I really think Su Minshan doesn’t get enough credit for how skilled he was.

He was trained under the Gusu Lan sect and knows that style of combat, and later learned another one. He does so in a manner that can rival HanGuang-Jun.

He was able to use transportation talismans, which already required a lot of power, while having a curse on his body (also to note he was carrying a man away when we saw him use the transportation talisman in Yi City).

He adopted his music skills to blend in some other songs seamlessly, so only Gusu Lan sect members thought the Moling Su sect were playing badly.

Just because he was a villain doesn’t mean he was bad at what he did.

The mdzs character who gets the worst treatment by fandom is by far Wei Wuxian. Like he doesn't even get good discourse, he's just instantly turned into a Manic Pixie Dream Necromancer, a little uwu gremlin who is so badly treated :( by everyone :(( for no reason :((( like war crimes and torture WHO, wwx has never done anything wrong?? none of it was his fault because he's CLEARLY the protagonist, and anyway he's literally a neurodivergent queer minor??

It's genuinely so sad, Wei Wuxian is such an incredible character because of how flawed he is, and because of how often his flaws contradict his best impulses!! He's incredibly compassionate with zero empathy, he's self-destructive and self-sacrificing and self-centered, he's talented and arrogant and brilliant and kind and callous. he's the moral heart of the world and he commits horrors that nobody else has even thought of. he's That Bitch, and wwx stans just file all of what makes him shine until he's flat and bland and unproblematic and boring

like babygirl I'm so sorry they did this to you. look how they massacred my boy.

Guidao in MDZS, Quotes

🖤 Okay so you know the discourse is hopping, now I wanted to slide in with the full excerpt from the official EN novels of MDZS. Alot has been said about the cultural nuance with how certain Xianxia cultivators treat the dead.

But I specifically wanted to address how guidao isn't about "peacefully" anything.

🖤 Here is the passage that was cited by another Commenter With Opinions. Some of the fluff pulled out (noted with [...]) and most relevant passages in bold for consideration: vol 1 chap 4

[...] There is an executioner who executed hundreds while alive. His parents and wife are alive and well. He was murdered in town, his corpse lying in open air for seven days, brewing resentment. He now haunts and perpetrates violence. What is to be done?” 

[...]  Murdered in town, a corpse in the open air for seven days—it was the very definition of a major malicious ghost, a great fierce corpse, super difficult to handle. 

[...]  “First, deliverance; second, suppression; third, obliteration.  “Confer with his family and endeavor to learn how to fulfill his dying wish; one must absolve him of his obsession in order to ensure he is released. If the attempt proves futile, then one must suppress him with decision and with force. If his crimes are excessively heinous and his resentment still does not disperse, his existence cannot be tolerated; in this case he must be eradicated. In discharging duty, cultivators must heed this ordering without error.”  [...]  Wei Wuxian said, “Although ‘deliverance’ is the first step, deliverance is often impossible. ‘Fulfill his wish, absolve his attachment’ is easier said than done. If his wish is for a new set of clothes, then sure. But if it’s to kill an entire family for revenge, then what is to be done?”  Lan Wangji repeated, “Deliverance is supplemented by suppression as required. Obliterate when necessary.”  Wei Wuxian smiled at the response. “What a waste of resources.” After a pause, he continued, “It wasn’t that I didn’t know the answer, I was just thinking of a fourth option.”  “I have never heard of any fourth option,” Lan Qiren said.  “This executioner died a horrible death, so him transforming into a fierce corpse is inevitable,” Wei Wuxian said. “Since he executed hundreds whilst alive, why not dig up the graves of those hundreds? Awaken their resentment, fuse their skulls, and have them fight the fierce corpse…”  Lan Wangji finally turned his head to look at him. His expression remained impassive, yet his brows were slightly knit. Lan Qiren was shaking so hard even his goatee was trembling.  He shouted, “Such ignorance!”  Everyone within the Orchid Room was stunned, and Lan Qiren shot to his feet.  “The purpose of exorcism is deliverance! Not only do you pay no thought to the deliverance methods, you want to awaken resentful energy? You are reversing the proper order of things, disregarding ethics!”  Wei Wuxian argued, “Some creatures are impossible to deliver anyway, so why not make use of them? When Yu the Great was taming the waters, he already knew blockage was an unwise plan and that redirection was the way. Suppression is a form of blockage, so isn’t that an unwise method?”  Lan Qiren hurled a book at him and he ducked, continuing his nonsense without batting an eye.  “Spiritual qi is energy. Resentment is also energy. Spiritual qi is stored within the dantian and can be used for great feats, so why can’t resentful qi be used the same way?”  Lan Qiren hurled another book his way and exclaimed sharply, “Then let me ask you! How will you guarantee all this resentful qi will remain under your control and not harm others?!”  Wei Wuxian ducked as he answered, “Haven’t thought that far yet!”  Lan Qiren was outraged. “If you had, then the cultivation world would have no place for you. Get out!” 

🖤 So here I think we should pay attention to how Wei Wuxian wants to "awaken" resentment, not just use what's already there.

Further as we saw with the cultural nuance posts, he wants to fuse skulls together, which... hmm not great.

Then, we see him say that such creatures are impossible to deliver anyway, why not make use of them? But the scenario Lan Qiren gave is to get rid of one (1) ferocious corpse and instead we see Wei Wuxian considering making more of them. And further, he's not really making use of the creatures that already exist, see? Otherwise he wouldn't need to awaken anything.

As we see post-rez, he comments that the eviler the better so as the Yiling Laozu he figured out how to control ferocious corpses like the executioner in this scenario.

But also there is no assumption that this is helping anyone but Wei Wuxian. "So why not make use of them?"

And I think specifically when Lan Qiren is calling out the disregard for ethics, this is mostly about the digging up properly buried corpses and awakening them. Like... as all the cultural nuance posts are trying to say, Wei Wuxian proposes and does the opposite of helping corpses/ghosts move on.

🖤And I think the most ringing argument you can really make about whether Wei Wuxian's guidao has any righteousness at all is when Jiang Yanli speaks up for him. vol 3 chap 15

[...] A-Xian used a different method from the rest of you, but it’s still a skill he cultivated on his own. You can’t write it off as ‘demonic’ just because he claimed a third of the prey that others were never going to capture to begin with.”

🖤 Which we see at Baifeng Shan he's using his ways to help Yunmeng Jiang secure prey. He played his flute and took a nap, while the corpses all ended up at Yunmeng Jiang's camp where they all use a more traditional way of dealing with corpses, i.e. obliteration. He doesn't even go to supervise.

🖤 Wei Wuxian has good in him, but I think it's better to actually look at his good deeds, no matter how selfish they are, than try to attribute inherent goodness to a path notably flaunts ethics and norms to incite yin qi (e.g. yuan qi, resentment) which is harmful to the living and resting dead. Wei Wuxian's character is a subverted villain trope, but what makes him the villain trope is the use of evil ways, i.e. the use of yin qi to seek power to use for one's own ends.

Feel free to reblog with his actual good deeds and intentions 😚

Do ya'll ever think about how every character in MDZS is living in a radically different genre of story?

Cause yeah, sure Wei Wuxian is living in a danmei fantasy novel with strong romantic comedy elements, but if you slide over a bit Lan Wangji is living a serious and heady drama about regret, loss, yearning, the passage of time, and ultimately atonement.

Scooch on over to Xichen and your in a straight up Greek tragedy, right down to the parable about hubris and trust. Jin Guangyao is living meanwhile in a political dark fantasy al'la Game of Thrones, Nie Huaisang is in a Gothic moody Monte Cristo-esque reflection on revenge and deception, and while Lan Sizhuhi and Jin Ling are living in two VERY different YA fantasy books ('magic boarding school/secret orphan of destiny' and 'Steven Universe style coming of age/discovering all your family are some flavor of evil and magic' respectively).

Everyone connected to Yi City is living inside a dark psychological thriller/horror flick, except for Xue Yang who is in a Found Family/Enemies to Lover fic right up until he isn't.

Jiang Cheng's entire life has been one long soap opera, and it is showing no signs of stopping anytime soon.

You're ignoring the political climate post Sunshot Campaign, and just focusing on "JYL liked JZX" for the fact she married. Yes, she loved the Peacock, but her marriage into the Jin wasn't as much a love marriage, but a political one.

Post Sunshot Campaign the YMJ was cornered, with no allies, and very much broken, yes they won and had "spoils", but exactly for being completely isolated (the whole 3zun sworn brotherhood increased this isolation), the weakest of the 4 major sects, and with the less number of members they didn't have that much of spoils, and all they had were probably going for reconstruction.

They needed an ally, they needed support, they needed money. And sorry to break to you, but I very much doubt they would have found allies in any of the other two major sects, the Lans were also rebuilding and recovering, and JC didn't have any particular bond with them, and the Nies were also more distant and his "friendship" with NHS probably was very much not counted because they weren't particularly close, at least not in the novel, and even less after the war, because I don't think NHS would very much understand or empathize with what happened with JC, and JC probably wouldn't be in the mentality to deal or hangout with NHS. And NMJ at that point in time wasn't very much fond of WWX, and that affects a lot how the sects would interact.

And let's not forget the Jins put themselves as the bigger (as in still have most of its men), the strongest sect politically and richest. Something that put them in the most advantageous place, and also forcing them as the only possible solution for the YMJ because of the shared history of Madame Yu and Madame Jin (after all Xuanli were engaged to marry in a previous arranged marriage, it was broken, but something the Jin capitalized post Sunshot, most importantly, Madame Jin was a driving force behind it, like she was in the previous engagement), and the fact that JYL and JZX had feelings for each other - which is a point both WWX and JC respected, despite their misgivings.

Speaking of WWX that was probably one of the reasons he pulled off from the Jiang, because he knew his presence there just further increased the isolation and scorn. The YMJ needed every kind of help they could get at that point in time, and JYL marrying into the Jin was the best, and at that present time the only mean to acquire an ally for them. And let's not forget that the Jin would have sent a handsome bride price that would continue to help YMJ's growth, and something they desperately needed - although I don't think JC would force his beloved sister to marry because of money, and neither Yanli would marry solely for the money, but I think it was something both considered, because of the position they were left post Sunshot.

That's why WWX never begrudged JYL or the YMJ for making an alliance with the Jin Sect, because in the conjecture they had in that period made it mostly impossible for any other option to be viable.

However, it's also important to point out that in the society they lived, women didn't have much power or influence, and those that did, were outstanding cultivators that had accomplishes of their own and power to back it, and even then they were still looked down in a form or another. JYL didn't have any of that, but she had power in making a good alliance, and marrying the Peacock was an attempt to work with what she had to try and do something for WWX. She tried, an attempt was made, he was invited for JL's one-month celebration - at least for her part and JZX - as an attempt to prove the rumors false, and as a re-introduction of him into their society. She was trying her best with the weapons she had and with the little power she had acquired being married to the heir of the strongest Sect at that point in time.

So having people criticize this just because "oh, poor WWX, he sacrifices too much" while ignoring or considering the other characters' situations, power, and opportunities it's just a disservice to the whole story and WWX himself.

JYL marrying a guy she liked was just a bonus. Because was this another story, was JYL's brother another person, she would have done her duty, marrying whomever she had to - she still did, but at least it was her choice, limited as it was.

Something I don't really see addressed à lot, possibly because I'm always in the JGY tags, is what an utter dick move it is for JYL to marry into the Jin of all the clans, while they are literally plotting to murder WWX.

It came up in a fic that updated this morning and like...wow Holy shit that is an asshole thing to do.

And it probably says something very interesting about how WWX is loyal unto death to the people he chooses and really does his best to protect them from everything, but nobody actually gives that back to him?

Like, you can't actually fault most of them for it - Jiang Cheng doesn't have the luxury of risking the lives of his sect for WWX or even for a personal debt he owes WN and WQ, plus he doesn't actually remember most of it so my theory is that he doesn't really internalize that he owes them said debt.

But JYL? What's her excuse? Who's gonna die if she doesn't marry the peacock?

I remember, although now not if the freshness of when I actually started in the fandom, but I still remember the dissonance I felt as I had just finished the book and dived into the fanfic and found so much hate and misunderstanding over characters I found so easy to understand their motivations.

I can't say some of my views were later tainted by fandom, the longer I dived into fanfic before I found myself into a Discord group where I could find people that knew more than I did about Danmei and Xianxia. MDZS wasn't my first experience with both, considering I have watched some movies and other dramas before, and my first MXTX book was TGCF, but I hardly knew enough. So entering the Discord group was like a breath of fresh air in terms of knowledge and learning more about a culture and small details we miss as an outsider audience.

I even re-examined what I knew about the characters, and learned more about others I didn't care as much I still have some I don't care even after, but I did learn more about them and found some respect for them, and I guess that my dissonance with fandom at large grew even more. But then I remember my experience in another fandom - Teen Wolf - that it's just as full as its own complicated relationship between fandom and canon, and something someone I met in it said stuck with me, "People have limited empathy to give characters, and they bestow it onto their favorite characters" or something in similar words, and this couldn't be any less true.

People are more inclined to analyze, or overanalyze, a character they care more, they give that character more leniency or more reasons for the way they act if they identify with the character more. However, the problem starts when the analysis becomes something personal instead of steaming from the character written in the text, and the fact MDZS has so many versions that bring with them their varied canons makes it even more complex.

Because we have the novel with flawed, but three-dimensional characters that have a variation of reasons and motivations for the actions they did, and even in it some are afforded more slack than others. We have a TV Drama that had to pass through a censorship in both content and ideals, they couldn't have a hero that lost control or wasn't as pure as some wished him to be - and taking WWX blame of the ones he was guilty of took a lot of him as a character - and threw all the guilt on another one took a lot of the narrative that the world isn't as simple or black and white. We have the donghua that added some little more flair to certain circumstances and gave a more villainous plot for something that was a good change in the novel, and completely butchered another character. Not only that, but we also have an Audio Book version and a Manhua, but since I haven't either heard one or read the other, I can't say much about them.

All these different canons end up leading to different interpretations, but also leads to misunderstandings and people talking in different "languages", since The Untamed and the Donghua have crucial differences in relation to the Novel. Another thing that adds into the dissonance I have with fandom at large, it's also the whole problem I see of the interpretations that disregard cultural and historical differences. Yes, MDZS happens in a fantasy ancient China, but they still have a different set of morals and beliefs that differ from what we consider as the norm today.

I've seen too much fics of characters raising a fuss about things they never did and would never do in the context they lived and because of who they were and believed in, because they weren't considered amoral or wrong in context. Although, MDZS discussion shouldn't be about morality at all or who has the higher ground to claim it. Or who is right and who is wrong, because that's not the story, that's not what we should have taken of it, because the beauty of MDZS it's because it tells a story of very much human characters, with human motivations, human fails and human emotions.

It feels frustrating to muddle through fics and metas that you read, and your first reaction is: no, that's not it, that's not 'character x'. It feels disheartening that if you try to disagree with something or have something to say about a character or that the majority of fandom have a specific opinion you're either said to be an anti or an apologist. It's rare to find spaces and places where you can have good discussions without someone attacking you for one reason or another. So working that dissonance becomes an even more difficult task when you feel you can't speak because of fear of being targeted.

But I guess that I got tired, and just wanted my frustrations to get out and about on the outside world, so here I am. I'm putting my face out there, I might get burned, but I think I needed to try.

-The Sole Nie out.