it is funny seeing ppl be like “what joe said temple isn’t gay?” bc like. like joe is SUCH a straight man and like on some level i do respect him saying that he doesn’t want to write a gay super villain trope like i get that i understand that i respect that but. he did. like he did write that. he made temple a camp overdramatic freak who turned evil over the obsession with the death of another man who’s fighting for people who were marginalized by the system like. like his backstory parallels church and tex’s. come on now joe. this queer got coded.

uhhh isn't the whole 'slapping some sense into them' thing from Makoto's confidant a pretty common trope though? like there's Mitsuru and Yukari, Yu and Yosuke in their 10 rank, Louis and Legosi's fight in Beastars, various shounen series, etc. Are those examples different or do ya just not like the trope itself?

Bad trope, but specifically handled bad in P3/5′s case. Makoto and Mitsuru/Yukari event are bad examples of it. Yu/Yosuke....it’s not really a “good” example but it’s not bad. Louis and Legosi/shounen in general....(I’m assuming we’re just talking first season) it’s a bit....yeah....different....Former two bad (and the trope I dislike the most), latter two “good” (not as problematic, usually)....cause they are different tbh......probably cause they are diff tropes.

Under the cut cause length

So let’s go over the slap thing. I might refer to each Makoto/Yukari/Mitsuru/Yosuke stuff as P5/3/4 so just a heads up. 

(I will say I think if I compared the two girl slap scenes between YukaMitsu and Mako, YukaMitsu one is “better” due to it being in private and not as....big of a slap, it’s still shitty tho) I’m not a fan of Yukari and Mitsuru as friends (let alone as gfs) tbh, mostly impart of this scene. I do not think that slap was a good foundation, and I think it should’ve gone in the opposite direction. Tbh I think it should’ve made things worse. Mitsuru is at her lowest point, she’s literally had 14 goddamn days to process her father’s death ON TOP OF her student council duties, and dealing with her company (on top of stuff happening behind the scenes such as apparently being engaged). She has all these adult responsibilities thrust onto her, and she’s had 14 days to deal with it. She’s processing her grief and she’s in a “what’s the point phase.” Then Yukari comes along, a girl who’s....kinda been giving her grief up to this point, yeah Mitsuru has a right to say “what’s the point in us being friends” or even being friends in the first place, you’ve been kind of an ass to her the whole game Yukari, regardless of you apologizing (no one needs to accept an apology). You haven’t been close. So with all that context, pretend you’re the one who’s stressed, in the middle of a fresh grieving process, with someone they aren’t exactly close to, and when they question if their life has meaning.....How would you feel if someone slapped you? I’d be like “Ex-fucking-scuse me????” Like it comes off as Yukari feeling Mitsuru isn’t grieving fast enough for her, like she hasn’t had a decade to process her dad’s death (which is a fault of Yukari’s character that’s never addressed, it’s her way or the high way, she forces her emotions on other people and her being friends with Mitsuru after this feels like a reward for bad behavior). I’d be livid if I was Mitsuru, a slap is not what she needs. You can just passionately shout her speech to Mitsuru, it’s a helluva lot better than literally hitting someone while they are emotionally vulnerable. Her speech is freaking just fine without a gd slap to the face, and ruins the scene. Esp when Yukari gets to have a hissy fit earlier in the game for a similar crisis (but you know, with the context she’s already come to terms with his death for the past 10 years, while Mitsuru’s only had about 14 days), but you don’t see anyone slapping her to get a hold of herself? Even tho, she’s even more emotionally unstable at a certain part, and lashes out, but no we can’t slap her. But she feels justified in slapping someone else? Bullshit. (btw yeah she says sorry but it’s so blase I’m like “really? just a quick ‘srry’ and that’s it?”) 

Then there’s Makoto just....freaking....this girl. Giant walking contradiction, will be characterized opposite of previous characterization just to fit the freaking scene. Makoto will be “hot headed who doesn’t think” for the Kane arc and Slapping eiko, but she’s like 100% chilled to the bone for the rest of the game. Which is it? Which is it P5? Can she make plans and think calmly or can she not? You can’t have both, and if it’s the latter she shouldn’t be in that position. *inhales* ANYWAY! Let’s look at this whole thing from Eiko’s perspective.

Eiko’s feels like she has nothing going for in her life but Tsukasa, she loves him, and she thinks he loves her. She has a friend in Makoto, the perfect girl who has everything Eiko wants. But now that friend wants to take away the one thing SHE has and that SHE cares about??? She keeps saying things but doesn’t show proof iirc (except when she tricked Tsukasa, but she doesn’t give Eiko enough time to digest it and it’s all happening so fast, I think she mentions the text she gets from him but she doesn’t show the texts to Eiko, regardless Mako has another avenue to explore...which I’ll get to). Of course Eiko is confused, why is the girl that is perfect want to take something from her? She’s at her lowest, yeah not the same kind of low as Mitsuru, but she’s not in a good place. So how do you think it feels, to be slapped HARD and IN PUBLIC? And this isn’t like news to Makoto, she told her all this shit in the previous rank. Makoto’s had time to mull it over, so on top of all that, Eiko also feels like “She knows how I feel yet she’s still trying to ruin the one good thing I have??? I don’t understand.” And yeah she’s starts lashing out, but Makoto isn’t exactly handling it well either. Mako’s speech is just fine withtout the gd slap, but the slap brings it down for her character (which I’ll get to after the plan) Which brings me to her plan.....

So then there’s Makoto’s plan.....she really doesn’t have a back up plan? An obvious one? One that actually doesn’t go against their MO....you know changing his heart (INB4 ‘but silly they need his yadda yadda” yeah and we’ve done mementos bosses where we need to dig up dirt, it’s not exactly that hard esp with like Ichiko and Lala and just the general area, we know where he is we just need a full/real name, we know more info about him then most targets it’s not that bad). So why do this whole public thing? Why not meet privately with the receipts? WHY EVEN BOTHER WITH THAT AT ALL WHEN YOU CAN JUST CHANGE HIS HEART! And no this isn’t “you can’t rely on heart changing all the time” the game is ass at that message to start with so why beat around the bush??? Futaba gets help 3 gd times (I’m not saying they shouldn’t have, but if it’s a personal thing I don’t think the thieves are against it). Like listen, why.....don’t we change his heart? This isn’t about “oh why do that when we can solve it another way” no we’re past that, this guy is and has been preying on girls. Why the hell are we letting him run around???? Y’all give Mika shit (and tbf I’ve seen people give Mako’s CoOp the same shit for what I’m stating now), but 1) we didn’t find out about her shitty behavior till the last min and 2) she was caught and the situation was resolved without the need of a change of heart.....Tsukasa is neither of these things, he’s 1) a main antagonist throughout the CoOp 2) while he gets away from Eiko, he’s left to his own devices to hurt other people later (except the anime apparently? but we are talking about the game). Like seriously, change his heart, you help all the girls+Eiko, you can then comfort her without you know the public embarrassment. Hell if you want to keep the freaking speech from the slap scene you can! At least she’s not slapped! Just don’t slap her! Both P3/5 can get by with these scenes without NEEDING the slap! It’s not necessary and god freaking forbid people imitate it IRL (I’ve seen it happen first hand, people are not friends after that kinda BS).

There’s also the fact she and Eiko make amends after off screen and it’s like???? I don’t believe Eiko would go back to Makoto after that sort of public humiliation tbh. I need to see this “apology” (esp since Mako was soooo great at hers the first time with ANne after you know dragging them into the Mafia.....of course I’m being sarcastic, her apology was so gaslighty and her trying to get them to drop it like??? no you are being called out for good reason) And then there’s Makoto post slap, and she’s like ‘oh man was that ok???” like no bitch it wasn’t and the fact you get POINTS FOR ENCOURAGING HER???? Like I always say a negative thing and make her know what she did was wrong. And yeah she’s like “oh geez I didn’t mean for that :(” just.....sigh....doesn’t matter what you mean, you did it.....you have to own it......*inhales*

Now for the unfortunate implications, which if I was a Yukari/Makoto fan I wouldn’t be happy with how Atlus handled them. Already talked about Yukari (her way or the high way, butting in, gets rewarded for bad behavior yadda yadda), Makoto is similar. She’s just more bossy about it (cause she’s older probably, Yukari had it reign it into going behind Mitsu’s back cause of the whole senpai/kohai thing). But the slap reinforces Makoto’s....a bit.....physically abusive with her friends..... I don’t think that was the intent, but it’s an unfortunate implication. Who does Makoto hit (that’s not a shadow)? Ryuji (twice counting Royal), and Eiko (former for “comedy~!” and the latter for drama, yes she’s joined by the other girls in one of the events but she’s still been physical more than them). She also is known for threatening violence on top of that or just being ~intimidating~ (which hits differently when you’ve develop a streak of hitting friends rather than just someone who doesn’t do that?) And yeah it’s for comedy.....but after awhile.....ergh....(esp when they do it once for drama). It doesn’t help she’s also the damsel a lot, and literally can’t fight back against people who have ill will over her (told you she’s a contradiction), or just doesn’t bother putting up a fight tbh. Which.....then sends a message she...only hits her friends cause....she can take them on? kinda thing..... it just....makes me feel gross tbh. It’s just BS that Chie gets labeled a physically abusive person cause she “hit Yosuke in the balls” when she DIDN’T, it was all a misunderstanding! But when actually Makoto does it’s ok???? 

Yukari and Makoto have a lot in common, they get away with a lot of shit, their way or the high way a lot of the times, esp when they do things that’s....really rude and mean and shitty but hey I guess it’s ok with Atlus~! (for a game series that’s like “you are responsible for your own actions and the consequences it brings” it sure likes to let certain chars slide with their actions~! :D :/) It’s such a shame with P3 that we have Fuuka and Natsuki, while not explored a lot (such a shame) is written a lot better than YukaMitsu/MakoAnne/MakoEiko friendships. And they do it without the need for a slap, and the aggressor actually gives a legit and sincere apology??? All on their own??? All because they feel guilty and want to make amends ON THEIR OWN!!!! And actually takes responsibility too???? I’m usually neutral on them but seriously they handle this issue like fine wine compared to the other three. 

Ok let’s go over Yu/Yosuke. So when I say it’s not good but not bad, I mean like....you shouldn’t do it irl cause it’s dumb....but like....the message is a lot better. P4, it’s consensual. Yosuke ASKS to be hit. See “ASKS!” And they knowingly go in for a brawl/sparring match. Because they want to. Eiko and Mitsuru didn’t ask to be slapped, this isn’t an equal footing. P4′s is. P3/5 is someone who’s emotionally vulnerable getting slapped by someone that claims to care (and the friendship is rocky at best and barely formed at worse) and then somehow coming out as friends???? P4, strong bond, very good friends, consensual.

As for Beastars.....again I’m assuming we’re talking about their fight in S1 after the one person (vague for spoilers) gets kidnapped.......here’s the thing.....they....aren’t exactly friends. I guess if I had the beat up/slap trope as a spectrum, this would be on the opposite side of P4 (with P3/5 being in the middle). You don’t want to be in the middle, I think it leads to unfortunate implications (only time I can think of it being ok is if they deal with the fact they were slapped realistically, calling the person out). 

So on one end we have P4, strong friendship, it’s a consensual fight, it’s even (there’s no ....I guess the best word would be “power imbalance”). The other end is Beastars, they aren’t exactly friends, this fight is like....a brawl cause there is bad blood now, tbh it’s just a normal fight fkldsajflkjf; which like is fine, they become friends later, but in a similar sense this fight is even too (I mean not physically but like they are both like “LET’S GOOOOOOOO!”). But in the middle it’s the “we’re new or kinda friends but I’mma slap them when the person is down because I think they need a ‘wake up call’” is bullshit, it’s not even, one person gets slapped and the slapper somehow gets the friendship??? Like how does any of this work??? Only good ending to that is the person really giving a good ass apology or there not being a friendship. 

The only real time I can think of slapping someone to legit have them get a hold of themselves, is if there is a life and death situation, and they are too shell shock to move, and you need to bring them back. Or if they are unconscious and you are trying to wake them up (usually cause there’s bad stuff happening around). And it stems from fearing their safety and you tried everything else and it was the last resort. None of these fit P3/5 scenes tho. P4/Beastars/Shounen is just “dumb bois brawling” (which dumb girls brawling is valid too), they’re different tropes. Slapping for slapstick is closer to P3/5′s trope than the P4/Beastars/Shounen one.....that one is a veeeeery fine line tbh (the more over the top the better, because it’s more distant from reality, the less over the top the closer it is to the drama one and the closer it is to reality and........it ironically becomes unrealistic). 

but yeah there’s just a couple things......that’s wrong with the scene than just the slap, but really those slaps are so unnecessary???? Like the majority of the scene is the speech, just focus on that. I think it takes more skill to metaphorically slap someone with your words than with your literal palm.