#that can not be contained by a poll lol. it's something i explored in this fic | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

notthestarwar · 11 months

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Snippet from: When is a monster not a monster? Oh, when you love it. Chapter 5

Ghost Mace speaks to past Jaster (alive) and tells him what he knows of Jango's future, in the life he lived.

Mace's brow stiffened. "When we realised what we had done, we tried to find him but we could not."

"We tried to find the True Mandolorian's but the survivors had fled in all directions. We did try and see justice done, there was an overhaul of our internal mission preparation process. We changed our training. Dooku left the order as did his apprentice."

"None of it could make up for what we did. Years after the fact, I learnt that Jango was sold in to slavery by the governor. It took him years to escape. I learnt of the weight of what we had done in helping end the True Mandolorian's. In leaving Death Watch unchecked."

He meets Jaster's eyes. "We are here to discuss why we haunt Jango, but it would be remiss of me to not tell you that your son has haunted me every single day since the day I left on a mission to retrieve him; to attempt to offer reparations for what my peoples neglect brought down on him, and came home empty handed."

" We thought him dead, but I did not forget him. From that day, I've carried the weight of what we did to him. I have often thought of him over the years." Mace shook his head.

"You hold no blame here, but we just might."

And isn't that a thing. His son haunting a Jedi even before that Jedi might haunt him.

Jango is tangled up in something here far beyond Jaster's reckoning.

Mace is laying out the constituent parts that when put together, make Jango in to the man that is responsible for the death of every single person standing in that warehouse. Jaster isn't sure where that leaves him, because once he's done hearing this story, in the years that lay ahead of them yet, every single one of these horrible pieces is going to fall in to place. Tragedy after Tragedy ready to be pasted and slapped on to the boy he loves, his son, in order to make him in to the man that did this.

How the hell can Jaster stand by and let that happen?

There are no rules that apply to Jaster, not anymore. He doesn't care about morality or the ethics of fucking with a future that's apparently already happened. He has no care for his own code, not now. None of it matters.

Jaster is Jango's buir, before all else. He has been from the day he stepped in to a smoldering farmhouse and against the odds saw signs of life dancing across his HUD. The Ka'ra gave him Jango and by god, it can stand back while he brings his son back from the abyss.

Mace is watching him. "Jaster, you had no hand in making Jango Fett the man he became at the end. You did not abandon him, you were taken from him. I need you to know this. You should know that none of this was your fault. "

Jaster doesn't care. It doesn't matter if its his fault or not, he is responsible all the same; because he wants to be. He didn't fall in to parenthood, he walked in to it willingly. For Jango, there is no monster that Jaster will not face.

The ka'ra has given him one last gift. The opportunity to see Jango's life after Jaster, and a few precious years in which to try and change them. It may not be in Jaster's power to save his son from himself but by god, he'll die trying.

He looks at the Jedi. "Tell me the rest."

Some of my thoughts below the cut

Some of my thoughts (because clearly rambling in the comments hasn't been enough for me lol)

I had a lot of fun with this one. I've written about ghosts before but with this one, I went at it from another angle. In this au, ghosts aren't bound by linear time. If you do something that leaves a ghost tied to your soul, they are tied to you in the past as well as the future. Jango and Jaster are both Force Sensitive (tho with a Mando understanding of it. They call it 'star touched') and so can see ghosts.

In this fic, moving in with Jaster sets Jango on the path that brings him to the prequels. Once he's on that path, the ghosts that'll be tied to him in his future, can move freely along the timeline, with each of them pulled to a particular version of Jango. Jango will obviously be responsible for the deaths of quite a few people, there are his bounties, the Jedi and the clones and so on; but when the first ghost appears he's just a kid. The story deals with Jaster coming to terms with the fact that his kid, who he loves beyond reason, even if he stumbled upon him quite by accident, one day becomes the person that will make all these ghosts.

At first there's only one ghost in their time, but Jaster can't let it go (tho he knows he should), he needs to know what happens. So he keeps asking until she admits that she isn't the only ghost and that they are tied to Jango as he's responsible for their deaths. Then, he keeps pushing until she introduces him to the others. She gathers them in a warehouse (so Jango doesn't see) and takes Jaster there.

In the part of the story this snippet is from, Jaster has just been confronted with an excessive number of people (including children) who are all tied to Jango as he's responsible for their deaths. He's had a (understandable) freak out, and ghost Mace has taken him aside and offered to tell him what he knows of Jango's future, and how it led to the death of so many people.

What follows is a buddy up adventure between Mace and Jaster (unlikely duo) in which Jaster tries to come to terms with what Mace has told him, and the horrible events that led to Jango becoming the man that would one day be responsible for all these ghosts. While he tries to save Jango from himself, long before he needs saving.

The idea behind the fic is the inevitability of a tragedy. There's a feeling when you're watching a tragedy play out, that it's all so unnecessary, that it didn't need to happen, but you only know that because as the audience you know that they are in a tragedy, the characters don't know. So what if a character did know? Jaster is served advance notice, will having that allow him to save Jango, or will it just feed in to the fulfillment of this prophetic future?

I wanted to explore the fact that there's only so much one particular character can do, in trying to prevent the end another is headed towards and also, the power of familial love, even when it's found somewhere unexpected. Jaster isn't Jango's blood family, he didn't even know him till he was an older child, which I think makes his love for Jango in spite of knowing what he will become, all the more powerful. The glimpse of Jango's future is disgusting to Jaster, it goes against all he believes in, but its Jango so he can't hate him for it, he loves him too much and so, he's determined to save him from himself. He's willing to do the impossible.

Then there's Mace: so in this au, Mace is sent out shortly after Galidraan, when it becomes clear to the order that they've made a mistake, to find the survivor they left in the hands of the Governor, and to right a wrong. He isn't successful, he looks everywhere but he can't find him, and in the end the order write him off as dead. In this au, Jango was 18 on Galidraan and what Mace sees as his failure to save someone that was little more as a child, and suffered so greatly thanks to what the order see as their own neglect, haunts him for the rest of his career.

Its that idea of 'the one case you couldn't close'. It's at the start of his career and he goes on to do amazing things, Mace is peak Jedi, he invents a new form, he's one of the youngest Jedi to be elected to the council, he ends up heading that council, but he is still human (or near human lol sw complicates everything. he's 100% human in a fallible/emotional/sapient sense) I think that as a Master Jedi he's very aware of his own weaknesses, and he tries to work through it, he talks to it with other Jedi, and he certainly doesn't let it affect his judgement, but he can't forget it all the same.

So it's this version of Mace that ended up meeting Jango in the arena. Which I think adds such an interesting angle.

#Jaster Mereel #Mace #I've been thinking about this one (and a part of chapter 7 which i might post as another snippet)#cause i saw a poll talking about who was responsible for Jango's death and I've got a lot of opinions about that #that can not be contained by a poll lol. it's something i explored in this fic #pretty much. i think that Mace had no choice but i don't think he'd agree with that. i think he'd struggle with having killed Jango and #how he killed him. (decapitation. a particularly violent move. which i don't think he had a choice in. but yeah think he'd struggle)#i think that Jango pretty much ensured his own end and was too intelligent to not realise he was doing that so i think that was a #self hatred/survivors guilt/'i have lived past my end' kind of thing #i also think that Jango was only the person that always would have brought death upon himself like that because his past made him so #and i think his past was bad enough to make him that because it suited the greater narrative to have him end up like that #it suited palps ends pretty much. did palps know he was doing that or did the universe just work in his favour? who knows.#still worked out well for him #the poll got me thinking about Mace which got me thinking about this fic but writing about the fic has me thinking about this fic again #kinda tempted to go through it again and give it a bit of a face lift. old once over. shine it up a bit #I've always hated that it's 17 chapters tbh. want it to be 15 or 20. i don't think I'll address that this time tho.#might just try an edit however #has this???? no i won't say it. not to curse it but... the editing/ read back block may... be shifting. possibly.#considering an edit hadn't seemed so possible in a while.#there are so many things i need to look over once i can lol I've posted things still in draft state #that's cool tho. no problem. not thinking about that just thinking about how nice it would be to give this old thing a shine #Mace is so ready here to absorb all the blame for everything on the order (and by extension him) but its really not on them

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comicteaparty · 4 years

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February 22nd-February 28th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from February 22nd, 2020 to February 28th, 2020. The chat focused on the following question:

How do you deal with people shipping non-canon ships for your story?

Deo101 [Millennium]

To be completely honest, I've only had one person ever ship a non canon/endgame thing. I kinda just ignored it. I think I would in general just ignore it, no matter how many people did ship a non canon thing. But it does make me uncomfortable

carcarchu

I once had a professor tell me "once you release your story to the world it no longer belongs to you" and i think he was right. once your story is shared with others it can no longer be said to be solely your creation anymore. you can't stop other people from shipping non-canon ships and even if you want to discourage it it's kind of beyond your hands at that point. other people's interpretations of your work is something you have to accept as a creator even if you find it unsavoury

Tuyetnhi

this is always in the back of my mind so uh, I let folks be and try not to search up fandom pics of my comic. at the US at least, I remember reading that creators who are currently writing/creating a story and it's not up to completion, anything like viewing fanart or reading fanfiction of alternative interpretations is not advised. So you have to stow it away till the story is thoroughly done, then you can just check out what fans are doing rip. I think it's aimed towards creators who have like NDA thing they're working on or if they're working with a publisher. still, I thought that's an important thing to keep in mind.

though I do get folks send me like single character fanart and really doesn't interfer with the story anyway so I accept those lmao

carcarchu

@Tuyetnhi that's for creators to not get sued for having their story turn out similar to people's fanfics

Tuyetnhi

aahhh :0

still er lmao. if the possibility is there, I rather not uh.... seek it lmao

especially like shipping fanfiction of my characters when the story isn't over yet lmao

eli [a winged tale]

I totally agree carcarchu. Readers can interpret character interactions through their own lenses and sometimes what we as creators intend in the story may be seen as a potential ship to varying degrees. I actually just had a conversation about this within my beta circle where a friend who hasn’t seen the whole script shipped a non canon pair and it was interesting! I personally don’t feel disturbed by it unless the pair had a large age difference/can potentially be unhealthy etc. There is a threshold I won’t cross but that tends to be quite high. Otherwise I just think it’s interesting and continue the actual story

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I haven't come across this with mine yet, but given that my story is deliberately non-romantic and the whole cast is aroace, I wouldn't be comfortable with anyone shipping any characters romantically. But that's very specific to my comic.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

To me, there are four levels of "non-canon" with regards to shipping. 1. You were supposed to ship this and get disappointed, so good job. The obvious example is the Mizuki-Cahe-Pejiba love triangle. Mizuki x Pejiba doesn't work out in the end, but it's not like it was a non-viable ship - if Mizuki x Pejiba wasn't compelling at all, it wouldn't have been much of a love triangle, now would it? 2. Didn't think of it myself, but I get the dynamic you're going for. One surprisingly common ship in the shipping contest poll was Taci x Coruby, which isn't a ship I was deliberately teasing... but, like, I get it? Coruby is outgoing, loyal, and makes lots of dad jokes. Taci is prickly, self-absorbed, backstabbing, and was (is? probably is) literally afraid of dad jokes. I can definitely see why people would want to see more of that dynamic. 3. ...Why? An example of this is Zaxaty x Mr. Enetoro, which showed up in the poll. Even ignoring the bad age gap (22 vs 50 which is like... all right... she's half your age but ok...) and the sexuality incompatibility (Zaxaty's only into women, Enetoro's not into anyone)... these two have literally never spoken to each other either on or off screen. Literally what drew you to this pairing??? Like I'd almost believe it was a mis-click on the poll over anyone actually thinking these two work together. 4. Bad, bad, very very bad. AKA "they're related", "one's underage", and/or "i know exactly why you want this ship, and I don't like it". For a while during the shipping poll's running, the third place ship was Mizuki x Nothing. First off, the age gap there is pretty gross, but I guess I can't expect readers to know that (Nothing is an immortal demon, but relative to other demons it's a kid so... someone's underage there). And second... I know exactly why people were shipping Mizuki with the giant demon that uses tendrils to mind control people, and I do not like that dynamic.

As for what I do about the ships in #3 or #4... so far, nothing, because they've been contained to the poll. If someone drew actual art of them, though, I'd probably tell them to stop, and I for sure wouldn't post the art on my fan-art page.

kayotics

I don’t have a very present fandom, at least in the sense that there’s any amount of shipping that’s unexpected. Or maybe it’s tucked away? I think the people who read my comic aren’t ones who make their own content. Either way, I’m pretty ok with shipping non-canon ships. I’d encourage it, really. I love the idea of people having fun with my characters in a way I didn’t expect. As for ships that are taboo... as long as they’re not hurting real people, I just don’t want to see it really or be made to be part of it. It would make me uncomfortable.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, how pushy/not pushy they are with Weird Ships is a big factor for me as well.

As long as they keep it to themselves, they can ship all the ships they want, no matter how icky. I'd prefer to not know if it's really icky.

So far there is only one Potentially Viable ship in my comic, though. And that Viable ship is very, very important to me. So if anyone ships one of the involved characters with someone else, I would seriously hope it's not because I've failed to develop the Viable Ship in a compelling manner. People are free to ship whoever, but don't let that be because of my own failure as a storyteller?

I've actually had anti-shippers against that Viable ship though lol, which may be relevant to the topic. What do you do when you get vocal anti-shippers of canon ships

I do think it is related, like another variation of "people sticking to their own thing with regards to ships."

kayotics

As a shipper: any crack ships I come up with is usually just because I like to explore the dynamic. Some people are more extreme about hating ships but... idk it’s probably just because they don’t like one of the characters for some reason

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Believable crackships can be a lot of fun to observe, as a non-shipper. Like I look at this amazingly well-written crackship and I'm like, wow, this is sorcery

sagaholmgaard

I haven't had it happen yet (my comic is less than a year old and doesn't have a lot of followers haha) But I'm really open about shipping! Much like @kayotics I would probably encourage it. I'm personally aroace and in my original writing I like to explore non-romantic relationships, but I know the appeal of shipping and tbh i ship my own ocs that aren't canon to the story/don't get explored in the comic because they're background characters for whatever reason. It would be genuinely fun to see if other people started exploring those ships on their own! Or things I haven't thought about! If something made me really uncomfortable, I would likely ignore it. If someone tried to get their non-canon ship to become canon that would be worse, no matter if i personally liked the ship or not, lol.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, people need to respect boundaries, always

kayotics

Yeah, definitely. It wouldn’t make me uncomfortable unless someone was trying to break into my personal boundaries

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

It doesn’t happen so much currently with Phantomarine, because I just don’t have enough shippable characters yet (related, underage, or otherwise just kinda squicky). I wonder what will happen when I introduce more. But as long as people are interacting with my characters in a fun healthy way, but still respect my choices in the end, they can ship away in any (legal) direction. It’s honestly not a ship-heavy story. It’s far more about friendship and healing and rebuilding strength/trust after trauma - if any shipping were to happen, it would probably be in a sequel or continuation when everyone is... feeling a lot better

DanitheCarutor

Depends on the characters. 90% of the time I don't care, I may even make jokes. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to see my hideous characters getting together, although there are two things that would make me a little salty. 1. If there is a scene going on that I want readers to take seriously. Such as if there is a part in the story where someone is overwhelmed and having a mental break down, then another character comes over to help calm them down. It would be kinda rude to get a bunch of comments screaming "KISS THEM!", "KISS NOW!" Although that could just be me being a stick in the mud. 2. Anything involving Julian. They are currently not mentally stable enough to properly consent to any romantic endeavors, so when people try to ship other characters with them it's a little... eeeeh! Kinda non-con, and it feels a little gross. I try not to get on anyones ass about these, realizing no one means any harm, they may not even be full aware of the situation. (Especially with Julian since they're still functional enough to talk to people sometimes and hold down a job.) Normally I leave the comments be, they just kinda irk me sometimes.

em.rowene

Honestly, I think I'd be flattered to see more fan interaction with Fractured Magic. Even if it's a ship I don't really get, it would just be nice to know people are engaged with the story and like my characters enough to interact with them beyond just reading (though this answer's definitely coming from a place of having been publishing it only half a year and not having a huge readerbase yet) Someone making fanfic with my characters is actually a major goal of my writing, but I agree with the above people who said reading it before the story's done probably isn't a good idea. I don't think there's much legal risk to it (I actually wrote a major paper on this in law school) - there's only been one case even remotely analogous in the US. Someone wrote a Rocky fan script and sent it to the writers, and then the next Rocky movie had a similar plot and the person sued. The judge said if you make a derivative work (like fanfic), you can't sue the creators of the original copyright for infringement. But I do think it would be bad form bc it is really easy to be influenced by stuff like fanfiction of your own story, even if you don't mean to be

Mei

Thankfully I haven't had to deal with people shipping my characters from MHIAC with anybody else. But that's mostly because I've only actually introduced the two main characters, who are husbands, and one friend. I think it'd be super interesting to see how people view the character relationships once I introduce more of the cast. I'd be really curious too! I mean, I don't want people to try and break up the canon couple that's for sure... but I guess all the side characters are fair game for shipping if people choose to. I'd honestly be super flattered if people shipped any of my characters, it would feel like I'm doing something right. As long as there's no NSFW stuff because boy that'd make me uncomfortable.

chalcara

Shipping‘s fan stuff and just for fan, as long as you do it in your own space, go hog-wild. Have fun! Not gonna watch/read/view it, but have fun! People taking their headcanons as fact for the main-comic might end up a problem, but I‘ll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

So far, I've only had people ship the canon main couple, so I haven't had problems yet. But honestly, I don't care who the readers ship for the most part, unless it's gross and/or illegal. For example, if they are related or underage... Other than that, I don't mind. It's all in good fun

Deo101 [Millennium]

I actually wanna add on to my comment: non canon ships only make me uncomfortable if they go against the Characters sexuality, or if it's an abusive ship or illegal. If it's not one of those then it doesn't bother me! My Characters are generally friends so I totally get someone wanting to ship two who won't be endgame

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I dunno. I just can't be bothered by stuff like that for multiple reasons. 1) Most of my characters don't talk about their sexuality in the comic. 2) Because of setting and time period, everyone expects everyone to be straight (which of course isn't true). 3) And I don't think readers typically mean anything bad by shipping people with each other that won't be together (again, unless it's gross or illegal).

One of my characters, for example, is aroace, but he doesn't even know that's a thing, because sexuality and mental health is not understood in this time period. So of course he hasn't mentioned that he's aroace at all. He is married to a woman, because of societal expectations, so likely he will be shipped with her. But their relationship is horrible, and it was definitely a marriage of convenience. So if readers decide to ship him with other people, I can't fault them, because they simply do not know.

Him being aroace is only in the subtext and in my heart.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I make my Characters sexualities pretty clear, so I consider it akin to homophobia to want to see my gay man with a lesbian

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

In your case, it's definitely a bit different, because you have made it obvious.

Capitania do Azar

Too bad @Deo101 [Millennium] i am preparing problematic ships right now (no I'm not)

I don't care about what people would ship, and I would be curious as to why people think this or that pair could work it's a very interesting way to see how people are interpreting the story and the characters

Deo101 [Millennium]

LMAO

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I'm definitely scared of people shipping incestual relations in my comic, because there is a situation where characters are related, but it isn't known to the audience (yet)

And I really don't want that mistake to be made

Deo101 [Millennium]

Lia/luke shippers before the last star wars movie came out...

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yep

I'm like... soooo nervous right now

I can just feel the bad ships encroaching

Capitania do Azar

If people don't know can you blame them?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I think it's only bad if the ships persist after it's revealed

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I can't blame them, but I just don't want to think about it

sagaholmgaard

ack, good luck cronaj! I wanted to add that when it comes to shipping and canon sexualities i'm the same boat as you cronaj. I have my own idea that my main characters are pan and ace respectively, but it doesn't come up in the comic and they don't have the lingo for it during this time period, so I can't blame readers for making up their own headcanons and ships

I have comic ideas that are a lot more centered around sexuality and getting into a relationship. If i ever make them happen I'm sure I would mind a lot more it people's ships went against the characters' canon sexualities

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol, haha, I also have a pan character whose sexuality isn't revealed in comic XD

Like... A little bit of subtext, but not explicitly said

FeatheryJustice

I actually don't mind people shipping things in my comic that is non canon, because it just proves people read my comics. I myself love crack pairings and dumb things, so I treat their ships like crack pairings. I think an example in Teasday was someone joking about shipping Vander with Spyder, two characters who never met and I was like "Haha that's funny." Because it just proves they read my comic to even know the names at least.

Capitania do Azar

They never met but... If they did

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I've had more readers want to date the characters themselves then ship them with another character, so it's hard to have a solid thought on how I'd feel with ships so far That being said however, i don't really mind ppl shipping as long as it's respectful to me and the readers boundaries. There's been people honestly wanting more interactions between characters that aren't shippable in my eyes, so i most likely would advert them if i saw ships i didn't agree with. That said, go wild!

Kat - The Yuri Canon

I get a lot of non-canon shipping, mostly because there are so many possibilities. Mostly I allow it, as long as they don't get too extreme or overly sexualize my characters. But I did have to stop some when they kept insisting my Ace go out with one of my characters. I finally had to say it just wasn't happening.

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Its never happened to me, but if it did that would be fine I guess. I’m not about to change plans in how I write the story to spontaneously put characters together unless there was good chemistry maybe

I would be happy overall that people were engaging with my characters on that level

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have only had one single ship comment in the 14 years I’ve been doing webcomics, and it was over a decade ago. But it was also an intensely uncomfortable one, where a reader was trying to ship my 14yo gay character with an adult female villain. Needless to say I put the brakes on that right away, and have never had a ship comment since.

But secretly I wish readers did occasionally ship my adult characters, because so long as they don’t get toxic, I think non canon shipping can be fun. If the reader doesn’t demand their ship be made canon or fight with people shipping a different pairing, I’d be all for it.

Ash🦀

Honestly I would love to see ships. I've never really had an audience for Foxes with Machine Guns, so seeing people care that much? I think I'd just be grateful. TBH I cried when I got a comment so someone having a whole ship? Of My OCs?? I'd probably end up sobbing like an idiot. They're all adults, ship away, you have my blessing.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I personally love shipping, and in regards to my comic, I'm excited, but also nervous. I have a main ship that I push myself that so far a lot of readers have been really receptive to (Merlow/Nocturne <3). I also have a few more ships coming up... but in the meantime, I like to see theories, but I worry that either a) the ships I end up with will make folks unhappy, or b) folks will ship things that ignore a character's established orientation. Like, it's fairly clear Diana is a lesbian, but I already had a casual suggestion from a rl reader of her and Merlow getting together and I'm like. N no. No please. Please, just let them be besties, they will be best friends I promise but Merlow is not a lady.(edited)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

See, I don't care about people having ~gross~ ships. I might not want to hear about it -- and if you expect it to become canon, you're probably out of luck -- but if a reader enjoys imagining or exploring it on their own time? I'm not gonna police them over that.

Just because a thing is illegal to do IRL, that doesn't mean it's illegal to imagine it or write about it. (If it was, I'd be in a whole lot of trouble...)

...not that it's really come up, since with my comics it seems like most people are happy to go with the canon mostly-healthy ships anyway, but.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Same with shipping against orientation -- if some reader wants to imagine an AU where the character realizes they've been bi the whole time after all, why not? The canon representation you wrote is still there. It's not gonna be compromised or erased unless you write that happening.

(And if the reader's imagination is more like "everyone is actually straight and some people, including these characters, just get temporarily confused"...I mean, at that point they have waaaay bigger problems than which webcomic characters they like to imagine kissing.)

kayotics

I think I gotta agree with Erin here. I’m not gonna police what people want to imagine. It’s not my business. They can do what they like in their free time.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I assume most of "I don't want X" folks mean "I don't want to see X." I can't even imagine policing what people do in their own time! I mean, what are you gonna do, be like the NYC library parking sign?

(That sign is real and I have seen it)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

"I don't want to see X" is definitely true for me

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, any time someone's clear that they mean "I don't want to see X" or "I don't want readers telling me about X", that's a different story!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

And if said illegal/gross ships are perpetuated on the internet, I'll probably try to step in

ESPECIALLY WITH UNDERAGE CHARACTERS

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...see, that's getting back into "policing what random people do with their free time" territory.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I WILL FIGHT YOU

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

um, there's a difference between things you do on your free time, and things you post where children can see

it's an important distinction

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I specifically have one character who is a small child who I do not want to see in ANY romantic situations

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I mean, we don't have psychic filters on "check this box to confirm that you are over 18" filters, so in theory "children can see" just about anywhere...

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

unless, of course, the character is aged up significantly

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And cute ships with young characters having crushes on each other have been around since forever.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

oh young characters having crushes on each other is one thing

but there are far worse things on the internet

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yes

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Right, but we're talking about "shipping" as a general thing, which includes the cute crushes.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I don't want any weird pedo crap

keep that aaaaawaaaaay from my characters thank you

Deo101 [Millennium]

on the subject of what people do in their free time, it's pretty obvious that I can't control what people are doing but that doesnt mean I support any free time activities.

I'm not gonna say I'm okay with adults shipping adults and children even if they do it where no one can see

like they CAN and I can't stop them but I wont say i'm okay with it just because I can't control it

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Sure, but, we're not talking about any "free time activities" -- we're talking about people using their imaginations. That doesn't cause me any harm. And if nobody ever sees it? Geez, plenty of people have waaaay darker thoughts than that in the privacy of their own heads.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think it causes harm to how they interact with the world, though. and just because it could be worse doesnt mean it's okay

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If they are interacting with the world in a specific harmful way, that would be a thing we can discuss on its own merits!

FeatheryJustice

I feel like if you police people from not doing something, they want to do it more.

So by not drawing attention to it, it might be a better move? For Ships, if someone ships something you don't like, don't draw attention to it kinda thing?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Also true!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think "I won't say I'm okay with it" and "I will actively make an effort to police it" are two very different things?

You can definitely have this... area where the distinction isn't clear

FeatheryJustice

For example, if someone is like "Don't draw this character as X because I don't like it" People might do it because you said something?

People are weird, I wish they will listen to author wises but not everyone will.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I mean, yeah, but "I won't make an effort to police it because that would be physically impractical" is also different from "I won't make an effort to police it because that's not my job."

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Well, if they do that, then they are an asshole(edited)

because they aren't respecting the creator's barriers

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

@FeatheryJustice Not spreading ideas you don't like in the first place is a smart move, yeah. Put your energy into promoting and spreading the things that make you happy.

FeatheryJustice

Yeah! Promoting things that make you happy might be better. Like "I like the fact you guys enjoy drawing my characters" Something like that that's more positive

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Sure, they can do it, but if you do something like that, which is also illegal in most countries, then you are disrespecting the creator, the character(s), and the law

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Wait, what are people doing that's illegal?

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past) Today at 11:19 PM And if said illegal/gross ships are perpetuated on the internet, I'll probably try to step in ESPECIALLY WITH UNDERAGE CHARACTERS

FeatheryJustice

Oh yeah that's something different. That's just illegal.

RebelVampire

I'm just admin stepping in here to remind people to remain respectful. Cause this is the sort of conversation that can quickly go out of hand.

FeatheryJustice

Got it Rebel

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Doing bad things is illegal. Writing about bad things happening isn't illegal. (Again: I have written fiction about soooo many illegal-to-actually-do things.)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I think there is a difference between writing about a terrible thing happening and putting it in a negative light and shipping pedophilia(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think writing about underage characters with the intent for sexual pleasure counts as CP

FeatheryJustice

I mean drawing and writing about murder is okay, actual going out and murdering someone is not okay. But I think for this context we are looking at something that is a bit more worrying.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

But I wouldn't want to read a story where murdering for pleasure is glorifed either

FeatheryJustice

Yeah, that's why I think context matters.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

and I frankly think media like that shouldn't be shared with the world

Like, i guess write it and stash it away on your computer somewhere

but don't show it to people

Tuyetnhi

i can hear the police sirens blaring from the sound of someone writing cp lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol

FeatheryJustice

Back to talking about shipping (Sorry I got this conversation derailed here), I think there will be people who will never announce their ships as well.

Or have it so open ended no one knows what's what.

And maybe we can brainstorm good ways to tell people we would like them to not ship certain things?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Probably don't say anything unless it does become a visible problem

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...I get that nobody wants to go into this too closely, and I sure don't either, but I also think someone should say -- legally speaking, a work is only CP if a child is harmed in its creation. If there's a living, human victim. Conflating that with other things is not beneficial to anyone, and can itself be hurtful to survivors.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Honestly, I don't feel the need to warn people not to write inappropriate ships about my underage characters, because it should be common sense not to do such a thing

I really won't say anything about it unless someone actually posts it on the internet

Tuyetnhi

rip I hate to burst it but under us law, even drawn cp is considered illegal

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I think it depends on the country

but in some countries, yes, it is considered CP

RebelVampire

But see that brings in the complecation of international law. If an artist is in the US but the fanartist is in say Japan where they have a much different relationship, whose laws apply?

Tuyetnhi

it depends on the site host i think?

like if it's a US based site

and there's CP there, it's under US law correct?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

the fanartist can't be be punished if they live in a country like Japan where that's legal, but I would still try to contact them and ask that they take it down(edited)

FeatheryJustice

(I wasn't talking about CP in my post I was just like if you don't want these two characters to be shipped together what can you say? Didn't mean to spiral off like that sorry)

RebelVampire

But it might only apply to US citizens. For example, some sites specifically alter themselves so part of their site follows European GDPR laws but tell the americans they suck

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

But that is also the difference between law and site terms

the person might get banned from the site but not sued

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I can't speak for every country, but it's genuinely not illegal in the US -- and, yeah, I don't know why a general discussion about shipping had to go this far either! You don't need to go right to the most disturbing possible interpretation when thinking about hypothetical shippers...

RebelVampire

Yeah. All my point is is blanket saying its illegal just cause it is in the US is inaccurate.

Deo101 [Millennium]

also morals =/= law, and a site is allowed to say no to that even if it is legal

they are not owed a platform

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Individual site TOS can be stricter than national laws, yeah.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn) I think the reason people discuss the worst case scenarios is because those scenarios are precisely what they have issues with, as opposed to other kinds of non-canon ships

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

@Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn) In my case, I mentioned it because that's where I draw the line with shipping. Other stuff, no matter how much I disagree with it, I don't really care enough to do anything about it

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I get that people have those lines in their heads, but when you don't describe the distinction, when you talk about "shipping" as if "everyone should understand that I exclusively means graphic photorealistic sexual content"...that's a big leap to make!

Tuyetnhi

@Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn) agreed but er.... I still do believe that the US has a law about drawn CP being illegal. it's something that I found out when I had to help a friend out from a situation (I won't go to details rip)

but yeah it's a big assumption lmao

I know shippers in good faith won't try to push that onto others

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And it seems unfairly harsh on any shipper with literally any other interests or activities.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Honestly, even if someone only commented about a ship with an adult character with a child character, I would still ask them kindly to delete their comment, or delete it myself

Tuyetnhi

^ye

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It doesn't have to be a visual representation for me

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And when you're talking about your own website, I think setting rules like that is completely reasonable.

Deo101 [Millennium]

again, I wont say im okay with it even if it's only in someones head. Just cause theyre not sharing it doesnt mean I'm okay with it

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

If I have the power to remove their comment or report them, I would

but if I don't, I will ask them to refrain from such comments

That's all the power I have

And as @Deo101 [Millennium] said, I also don't have to agree with people's filthy thoughts

Deo101 [Millennium]

I understand they can think them and i cant do anything about it but i wont offer support for it i dont think

RebelVampire

As a reader, I want to second that it's important to distinguish what you mean when you say you don't tolerate specific ships. Obviously, no one think pedophilia is okay and that would be a fine ship to not tolerate. However, if all you say is you don't tolerate specific ships, readers will also jump to the worst conclusion possible, which in this context is you don't tolerate anything that is non-canon (vs. what creators think is the worst possible conclusion when they hear non-canon).

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

see, this sort of thing is exactly why i have four tiers of "non-canon"

Deo101 [Millennium]

please elaborate!

Tuyetnhi

4 tiers? :0

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Oh yes, definitely

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

i mean it's in my post a few days back To me, there are four levels of "non-canon" with regards to shipping. 1. You were supposed to ship this and get disappointed, so good job. 2. Didn't think of it myself, but I get the dynamic you're going for. 3. ...Why? 4. Bad, bad, very very bad.

with more detail explaining specific ships that ended up in my poll that fit into each category(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Even if stuff is noncanon, or goes against a character's canon sexuality, I don't really care, because fan AUs exist

and it's pretty hard to offend me

mostly the pedophilia thing is the only thing I'm passionately against

So yeah, #4 is the only place where my hair stands on end

Deo101 [Millennium]

oh sorry I did read that but I didnt realize thats what you meant by the tiers ^^;

Tuyetnhi

its helpful!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It is indeed

I read it before, and I still find it useful

I'm sure #1 and #2 is where most of the WotP shippers will reside

And there will definitely be a few #3s

FeatheryJustice

That's very useful, the tiers XD

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

@RebelVampire absurdly late, I know, I just wanted to second that "obviously, no one thinks pedophilia is okay" is really important to keep in mind. No matter what anyone says about any kind of shipping -- people should be able to feel comfortable that nobody's gearing up to call that into question. We're all on the same side with that one.

spacerocketbunny

There's a few characters I'm a little protective over regarding their sexuality, but most of the characters are bi/pan so it's pretty free game! I'm so here for random crack ships honestly

Capitania do Azar

Get ready

AntiBunny

Personally I enjoy seeing what random ideas fans come up with. It's all part of being a creator.

meek

lmao i'll try to get one comment in before the discussion closes As a creator, a lot of my feelings about shipping is related to how I am as a reader/audience member for media? Character dynamics and relationships are one of my favorite things + what'll usually hook me for a series, and definitely exploring relationships that either didn't receive any attention or were completely non-existent in the original material is one of my favorite things to do! And that'll inspire me to create or make certain choices with my original characters based on that "Well, what if [this] happened in that story?" So with that, I don't find myself get super-attached to canon/endgame ships and I'll just do my own thing, regardless. I always respect the original intent when it comes to character's sexuality or preference (unless it's a case of 'everyone's straight' lol), but I'm a rabid multishipper in fandom anyways so I'll carry that energy over to my own works LOL And let it be free for all, even if I have an 'end' goal in mind. After all, I'm the biggest multishipper for my own characters too!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

>I always respect the original intent when it comes to character's sexuality or preference (unless it's a case of 'everyone's straight' lol) @meek Just for the sake of argument, why do you respect the characters' sexualities unless everyone is straight? Personally, I don't mind sexuality swapping in fan ships and such, but I do wonder why there is this specific stipulation for you.

meek

Also input as a reader: sometimes it's good to be completely upfront about where your boundaries are as a creator! And also being explicit about certain character details or relationships can help, because a lot of times readers don't.. really know.. I can't tell you the number of times I've started reading a comic where the ages of the characters are very ambiguous with: - specific ages are never said - the art style is stylized in a way that unless they're explicitly a child or an elderly person, everyone looks like they're the same age - the context clues on their age is limited to.. they worked a minimum wage job - in-story they are treated with the same level of respect and authority status as everyone else around them - characters that are older than them that act the same age and that's led me several times to thinking a character was at least 18-23+ and actually they were supposed to be 14.....

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I assume it's for the same vein of reason why we don't have a Straight Pride Day. This is getting into the weeds though, so I'm very hesitant to approach further

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Sure

meek

The short answer is that there's no harm in adding more gay or trans representation to a work of fiction

but erasing canon gay or trans representation to make it cis or straight is bad and homo/transphobic

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with respecting characters's sexualities or messing around with possibilities, but it just seems rather... odd

meek

also just straight up it's complete white-washed fiction that LGBT or POC did not exist in history until [convenient time here] so acting like you're being "historically accurate" by exempting them is just.. bad

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Well, depending on location, that would be incorrect

But again, I'm not particularly upset to see "straight" characters depicted as gay(edited)

meek

well i'm a queer nb person so i've encountered innumerable works of fiction where everyone is straight, cis, and white so i'd much rather diversify that then perpetuate it

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

You're not wrong about there being a numerous amount of straight, cis, and yes, white characters in media

But I feel like it's destructive to society as a whole to suddenly decide to be more courteous toward LGBTQ+ groups than toward straight people

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

This is getting too political for me and I feel it could get out of control quickly

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Maybe it is political

You don't have to participate

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It also feels off topic

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

But I think it's important to politely discuss it

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Maybe not in this channel specifically

meek

i'm going to be honest, i feel incredibly uncomfortable to be asked to continue this conversation

if you want to talk more, then write a DM but this has nothing to do with the main part of my comment or the topic for this channel

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

If you feel uncomfortable, then I respect your decision not to continue this discussion

I've said my piece

Spring-heeled Jack

Jumping in before this closes: I'm not there yet but I'm in the camp of "whatever floats your boat!" If someone ships my characters I think I'll be flattered that they are that invested in them to have those feelings. But also I'm super new to this and the only comment so far is my friend jokingly saying she ships herself with one character.

Ash🦀

I'm in the same boat as Spring-heeled Jack- the idea that people would even be invested enough would be flattering, yes. It would be really cool, but I doubt it will happen since there's a limited cast and it's not a romance. I do have personal ships, but since romance isn't a factor, shippers... Just won't be canon, kinda no matter what they ship. Maybe if my story was more romance-centered I'd care more, but as it is... Do what you want, it's not going to hurt my feelings if you think Ren and the Oni would be a power couple or whatever.

kayotics

I’m just gonna pop in here and say this: shippers making queer content of (presumably) straight characters is a large part of how I figured out I was queer, because for the most part (especially when I was younger) that doesn’t exist in the public eye.

Spring-heeled Jack

My comic isn't romance based, it's horror but I feel that really good horror is best built off characters you can connect to. So I have some families. I have some married couples. The older two "children" (they are in their 20s) are dating. I made one of my main non-binary and their partner is ace. Another main is a transman. In my heart my characters are all pan anyway so I like just putting them with who I think works best lol

I also low key ship one of my married characters with another character that is coming in later. I do enjoy shipping so I might be biased lol

Deo101 [Millennium]

my comic is pretty romance based, it's not a romance but there are pretty strong romance threads in it, and my characters arent all pan so I feel differently, so I do see why you would feel differently than me on this subject!

Spring-heeled Jack

I can also respect a creator having an idea for a character and not feeling comfy with people going different directions with it.

Ash🦀

Oh definitely- How individuals interact and feel for their characters varies from person to person.

Kabocha

I don't mind people making changes for shipping purposes or shipping non canon stuff -- so long as they don't expect me to change my writing to suit them. And like Snuffysam, I kind of have similar tiers for ships, too. I don't want to (and can't, really) control what other people do, but I'd prefer that if a reader knows it's going to make me upset or something I've expressed wishes against, that they not share it with me. Besides, if what I'm writing doesn't meet their needs, I'd rather see shippers search out, celebrate, and elevate work that better matches the values they idealize in pairings. (and trust me, romance is FULL of it if you look. :D)

Spring-heeled Jack

I thought about my only canonically het character that I have (I only rp him now, I have a comic planned for him down the line) and even with him all I can think is "if someone wants him to kiss a boy, I super don't care."

Ash🦀

Wait, hold on, have people actually asked to change the story based on who they think should get together? Is that a thing people do? (Forgive my ignorance, I’m not really a fandom person? I’m p shy and keep to myself)

FeatheryJustice

I seen it happen. Which in itself is pretty rude soemtimes because people get angry if their ships aren't canon kinda thing

Ash🦀

Oh my. Thank you for the warning then, I’ll keep it in mind. That’s very rude! Would probably fill me with spite, to be honest. The “well now I’m not doing it” haha. I’m... disappointed but not surprised this happens. Still, it won’t change my mind. XD

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I have run into more than one person who hyperfixates on a ship (in any media, not just comics) that's... honestly, truly, never going to happen? Like, a main character crossed with a background character who had no lines and showed up in a single scene. That sort of thing. Then they implode/explode when it doesn't become canon by the end. If it happened for my own work, I don't know what I'd say. Apart from telling people not to put all their eggs in one basket, I guess I fear that kind of manic fanaticism.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Wasn't that the reason behind that infamous blackmail incident, the Voltron one

or am I mixing it up with a different fandom?

Spring-heeled Jack

Looking at fandoms in general, there are people that get over invested and become possessive. It's a shame.

Deo101 [Millennium]

the fact that it could be more than one fandom says a lot, i think :P

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

yeeeeeah ugh

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

If it's not, I'd still believe it (edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Also the needle in the cookie one (though this was given to a fan artist who drew a ship they didn't like, not the actual author)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Hoooooooly hell, I feel like I remember that, but not specifically what it was for. NIGHTMARE SCENARIO.

Deo101 [Millennium]

thought that was because they didnt draw a character fat?

again, the fact it could be multiple things

hugely concerning

Spring-heeled Jack

Just, please, never take consumables (food, drink, ect) from strangers.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, I think the "you didn't draw her fat enough" was a different one

Deo101 [Millennium]

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Scary world we live in -_-

Spring-heeled Jack

There are people who get too invested in things and don't know how to process those feelings. Be smart and careful, but don't let those people stop you from making your comic, art, fanart, or anything.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

ngl, I'm honestly legit scared. Not quite terrified but lowkey fear in my mind... I'm not at all active in con circuits, etc. so I don't think any physical harm will happen to me, but I do worry about potential online harassment.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Me too, to be completely honest

Spring-heeled Jack

Conventions are usually really great. I've been at some for about three years now and everyone has been so kind. Online, however, is more of a concern because people can post anything, it's easier with that distance.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Even with a low likelihood of something happening, common sense is definitely good. Don't take food, have a buddy nearby, have an 'out' if you feel uncomfortable. But yeah, cons seem to be lovely so far. If anyone causes trouble, staff usually does a good job wrangling them

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yeah, I've had great experiences at cons for the most part. A few creepy people that camped out at my table for a bit longer than comfortable, but otherwise it's been great

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Oh yeah The campers. They mean well, but man... they CAMP.

Spring-heeled Jack

I get a lot of lingering people and returning people,. but only once so far did I really have someone just stand there and block others. But he was a bit older and was putting his change in his wallet from a sale, so I didn't want to say anything

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I love the people who return! I usually get people returning the next day to buy something (or to buy more stuff). Those people always seem so invested in my work.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, it's more the online stuff I worry about

o(-<

Deo101 [Millennium]

me too, I've been real lucky to have people mostly be very kind but theres always new fear with new readers, or every new thing i introduce that someone will be mad about it

Spring-heeled Jack

Lemme clarify, returners are okay, but the ones the are weird and linger and block the booth. That makes me a little stressed out

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Oh man, Deo, I can feel those fears in my bones.

Deo101 [Millennium]

ahahha a bunch of new people show up and youre just like thats a lotta people who could be pissed at me huh?

I had someone get very upset with me over something once, in a way i never imagined someone would, and im coming up on a scene I've been planning for like a year now which canonized my characters trans identities, and I worry some people will think i am hmmmmmm doing a bad job

or not the job they want

Spring-heeled Jack

Forget them. Do what you have planned!

Deo101 [Millennium]

yup! but if people do get very upset with me I will still be hurt, even if I think I am really doing the best job I can

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

hard same

I won't bend my story, but I sure as hell will be hurt

Spring-heeled Jack

I understand. I worry that my queer characters aren't queer enough, but then that's a worry I have about myself IRL, sooooooo, I get you

Deo101 [Millennium]

someone once got upset with me over that ;) so i worry about it too

Spring-heeled Jack

It sucks because the opinion of others both don't matter and SUPER matters

Deo101 [Millennium]

or, sorry, they said I was blase my bad

and yeah like, im gonna do what i want but it still sucks when people are mean about it, regardless

which ^ is kind of how I feel about this shipping topic. Im gonna do what I want but Id really prefer people not be upset over not getting what they want.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think everyone's mileage varies on what 'the right representation' of relationships and characters is. Barring obvious no-nos, I don't think everyone will ever be 100% satisfied. I do very much dread that one person coming into my comments to tell me "You did this character/ship wrong, thus, you are a bad writer, and probably a bad person - gonna write an article about you now kthxbye" At that point, I would just hope enough people come to my side to go "Um... no?" because I would definitely want to recede far into the nearest dark corner and think about what I've done

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah. when I did get that comment of someone kind of telling me off about how Ive chosen to represent things. I really kind of started... not overthinking, because I dont think that worrying about doing a good job and taking comments into consideration is BAD, per se, but I started really worrying about whether or not i DID do something wrong. my friends came to my defense, which was very nice, and the person did actually end up changing their mind and kind of rescinding their comment. I think places like this and having people that support you to back you up when stuff like this happens is really important

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It happened to me and it did absolutely suck. I'm genuinely unsure I can take another one if it happens again

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah idk what I would do if someone went... that hard..

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think there are some reactions that not even sensitivity readers could predict. Like, things that are so out of left field, but also still make a bit of sense if you really, really stretch your brain? Arguments that would make for excellent thesis papers someday, tbh

Spring-heeled Jack

:( I'm really sorry it hurt you that much, Keii. I know I can say "don't let it get to you" all day but you will feel how you feel when someone pulls that kind of stuff. I hope it doesn't happen again and, if it does, I hope it doesn't hurt you!

I hope it helps to remember that there will probably be many people out there that see your work and see the characters and go "That's me!" or "I feel seen!"

Spring-heeled Jack

We get a new topic tomorrow, yeah?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think so

Spring-heeled Jack

Nice!

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