#stygius rants
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zagreus pre-canon timeline. (1/5)
For a while now I've been meaning to put together an estimated timeline of events, prior to the beginning of the game, that we have knowledge of through remembrances (Hades screens before each run) and mentions in conversation. This is that post! Or, the first of several, as I included too many screenshots for tumblr.
This will touch on other characters, including my headcanons of Meg and Zagreus' first relationship (which I've talked about here & here before), but will be largely centered around Zagreus himself.
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5
ZAGREUS EMERGES STILLBORN; PERSEPHONE LEAVES THE UNDERWORLD.
After giving birth to Zagreus and seeing him emerge stillborn, Persephone's feelings of not belonging (which Zagreus also experiences in canon) reach a breaking point, and she leaves the Underworld. All are forbidden to speak of her.
Megaera confesses to knowing Zagreus' true parentage all along, when confronted. Thanatos didn't know that Persephone was Zagreus' mother. Achilles was not present in the House at this time, as per Persephone's codex entry.
2. ZAGREUS STARTS INTERACTING WITH THANATOS (RUDELY, THEN BUDDING FRIENDSHIP)
We know this "you looked better with long hair" moment was their first interaction (making a strong first impression, Zag!). As a side note, Thanatos has to be older than Zagreus, since he remembered Persephone, and Persephone remembers him and Hypnos as well.
Further proof of Thanatos being somewhat older is that he and Megaera worked together on the Sisyphus case, which predates Persephone's departure (and therefore Zag's birth), as per the below screenshots. Sisyphus mentions having met Persephone briefly when he was sentenced.
After the tragic first interaction between Thanatos and Zagreus, they seem to establish a budding friendship, as this remembrance suggests. "Go play with Thanatos, or Hypnos, or the dog", meaning they were close enough in age that it would not have been odd for them to spend time together. Even if Thanatos was older, he was not an adult to Zag's child-like age; he may have been the equivalent of a teenager. (Of course, age is meaningless when it comes to immortal gods, but as a reference.)
TBC!
Part 2 >
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headcanon of the House of Hades layout
It's been a while since I've pulled out the old conspiracy board on this blog, so here we go once more. Here is my headcanon of the House of Hades layout, specifically the West Hall + Zag's room and courtyard. Picture-heavy post ahead (and some spoilers for clearing the game).
To begin with: the courtyard is not on the ground floor, because every time that Zagreus escapes, he goes through that window in the courtyard and jumps down from what looks to be a second story.
This would be easier to see in a video (or during play), but you notice that he falls and three-point lands in a cloud of dust in front of the large gates.
These gates (with Hades' face on them, right behind Zagreus in the screenshot) lead to the closed-off garden, as we learn when Persephone returns to the Underworld and opens them to walk inside the House, going through the garden where Hades and Cerberus wait.
Additionally, the courtyard overlooks Tartarus from a height (not ground level as the start of a run) and you can see the Styx flowing below, on a lower level. If the river runs under the House and through its Main Hall, it would easily come out onto the Pool and the balcony where Thanatos watches it from.
Therefore, the courtyard is on the second story of the House, above the garden.
Let's look now at where else the courtyard is connected to. I believe the courtyard is directly adjacent to Zag's chambers, and that these are also on a second floor. Look at the flooring tiles at the exit of the courtyard, and Zag's room.
Though the flooring itself is different, there is a nearly identical balcony railing we can see, bathed in green light (as if from the torches seen at the entrance of the courtyard).
So, Zag's room is on the same floor as the courtyard, on the second floor. And this means that, despite how much fun we've all had laughing about the sounds of loud sex drifting from Zag's room out to the West Hall, it would seem that his room is on the floor above.
Look at the entrance of Zag's room, and notice how the flooring doesn't seem to match the doorway in the West Hall.
Here's the thing: if both Hades and Zagreus have their own private bedchambers, presumably the other notable members of the household (Meg, Thanatos, Nyx...) must have theirs somewhere in the House as well. But where?
The only possible placement seems to be that hallway, the ground floor level of it; beneath Zag's chambers. If a corridor with access to different rooms existed there, there would be no point from a gameplay perspective in developing or showing it, since Zagreus doesn't have reason to stop in such an area in the game.
Is it possible that I'm reading too much into this? Absolutely. But then again, that's the fun of it.
#hades game meta#stygius rants#hades game#zag would still not have a door to block noise to the courtyard#so we can keep making jokes
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This interaction happens when Meg has had her bedroom romance scene before Thanatos, and it's one of my favorite parts of the scene, this admission that Thanatos needed to be "talked into" gathering his courage to go own up to his feelings in Zag's room.
You can of course romance them in either order, but I've always liked completing Meg's route first because of this line. I find it so funny, this mental image of Than and Meg having one of their lounge conversations before this scene. Meg, having finally allowed herself to take a second chance on someone who hurt her (whether she'll admit it or not), and feeling so far pretty good about that decision and its side benefits, found Thanatos being dramatic about his prospects and thinking himself in circles, and essentially told him to put on his big boy pants and go get laid. I love that.
But recently, I've been thinking a lot about the other option too!
I have no doubt that Thanatos needed that extra nudge even if he's romanced first, and it's so interesting to think about a different version of that potential lounge conversation in which Meg is still telling Than to stop worrying and go for it, and she persuades him, and he goes off to get laid, and she's just left there with her drink going, "that was good advice I gave him...so why am I still not doing that?"
There's no point to this post other than "Meg and Thanatos should be romanced concurrently always". That's it. Have a good day, happy Pride, etc.
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zagreus pre-canon timeline (5/5)
I'll just make a Zagreus timeline, I said. It'll be quick, I said.
Well, this is the final post! We're caught up to canon now. Enjoy!
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5
10. ZAGREUS BECOMES AIMLESS & FILLED WITH APATHY
Building off of those signs we saw in the previous post, Zagreus seems to have gone through a period of apathy around this time. He mentions it himself when speaking to Patroclus (pre-1.0 screenshot), and I believe he does so to Orpheus as well (though I can't find a screenshot).
(Also, "someone said to me" is definitely Achilles. Achilles has a dialogue with Nyx about not giving up on himself so that Zagreus wouldn't also give up on himself. But I'm getting off-topic.)
Thanatos, on his first canon meeting with Zagreus in Elysium, also makes a note of Zagreus' despondence before canon.
"That's more motivation than I've ever heard from you". Yeah. I think Zagreus definitely had a rough patch after being fired from the Admin Chamber; not because he missed the work, but because of that mounting feeling that he wasn't any good for anything, that he didn't belong.
As those feelings continued to fester, he decided to investigate if he actually didn't belong... by enlisting Hypnos' help putting the House to sleep so he could rifle through Hades' papers.
11. ZAGREUS FINDS THE LETTER FROM PERSEPHONE
Here we come to the single most significant flashback in pre-canon times!
Though this is shown to the player after run #6, presumably in an attempt to avoid dumping all this information at the start of the game when the player has no attachment to these characters, this scene took place before the events of the game and became the catalyst for Zagreus wanting to leave home.
Again, we get the "Earlier..." banner and the sepia tones, etc. Note also that it is possible to beat the game on run #1 (if you're extremely good at it) and Zagreus heads to the cottage with Nyx's instructions on how to find it, so he DOES know what he's looking for, from the start. This scene is from the past.
He finds the letter and the truth about his parentage, "entirely by chance". (I will never not laugh at this clever trick of storytelling to keep momentum in this scene rather than have the player examine a dozen papers and have Zagreus go on a lengthy attempt to rationalize the letter.)
Then he confronts Nyx, who was not affected by Hypnos' shroud of sleep, seemingly. The scene cuts away before we learn what Nyx tells him, but we can assume it's the truth about Persephone, or at least enough that he decides to seek her out.
Wishing to support him as Persephone would have done, as a mother would do, Nyx contacts Athena and the Olympians, feeding them a story about Zag wishing to join them on their mountaintop, in order to persuade them to aid Zagreus in his escape.
And that's how we come to: CANON!
I hope these posts were interesting to read! They've been on my mind for quite a while, and now they're out in the world. As always, you're welcome to send asks if there's anything you'd like to suggest for a future meta post! <3
< Part 4
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megzag thoughts, part 3
You'd think after two whole blog posts (1 2) about Meg and Zagreus' relationship, I'd have run out of things to say... but you'd be wrong!
I've been thinking recently about the way they both approach their feelings toward each other, and how that contrasts the difficulties in the budding relationship between Zag and Thanatos. So, here goes another long post, full of screenshots, below the cut.
Though both canon relationship options for Zag start off on shaky ground, they have different difficulties to overcome. Where Thanatos is concerned, the relationship/romance arc is about processing the anger at Zag's departure and trying to put a name to the other feelings that arise.
But in Meg's case, there's a lot of resentment revolving around the presumably disastrous end of their pre-canon relationship, to the point where even after they start patching things up, putting a name to the feelings that still exist seems to be a daunting proposition. There's a lot of water under the bridge for the two of them.
I've talked at length about the impact of their pre-canon relationship as I imagine it in Part 1, and it makes me crazy that we don't get more than hints about it, but from those hints it's possible to deduce the gist, as described in that post.
They were set up by Hades, as implied by the "Fury" remembrance; Zagreus "tried not to get too close, and then [he] did", and he "said a lot of stupid things", which led to their less-than-amicable break-up. My headcanon is that Zag fell for her despite every intention not to, and she developed feelings of her own, but the shadow of Hades hanging over the relationship (which may have started as an "assignment" on Meg's part) made it impossible for them to come to terms with those feelings in an open and healthy way.
Zagreus eventually got tired of that uncertainty and said "words spoken in careless arrogance", as the codex calls it. Part of me wonders if he said he hated her, considering that he specifies that he doesn't in this exchange:
And now it's canontimes, and it seems like Zagreus, who so readily gives words of affirmation to most anyone who'll stay still long enough, is cautious of defining how he feels about Meg. In the conversation above, he says, "I still have feelings for you... At least, I think I do."
Meg, for her part, puts up every wall she can, rebuffing his efforts to build a bridge up until the very last Ambrosia. She says Zag can't hurt her, which is a big fat lie if I've ever heard one, and her approach to her heartache early on is to try to hurt him back. You know how her keepsake makes you deal more damage the more hurt you are? That, but applied to conversation.
So even as Zag keeps trying to get back into her good graces, and succeeding to some extent, the subject of any lingering affection between them seems like dangerous ground. They both put their hand in that fire before and got burned, so they're afraid of even acknowledging it for what it is now.
Take, for example, the conversation with Achilles when you're romancing Meg only, vs the one for Thanatos.
"I think she likes you more than she lets on". Achilles gets to the heart of Zag's insecurity with this choice of words (versus "I think he cares for you more deeply than you know" for Thanatos, where they're both actively seeking to define the extent and nature of their feelings). Zag's response, "I hesitate to even use the word", is very telling.
I think Zag's fear where Meg's concerned is that he could "get too attached" again, and have that be unwanted. He's afraid of them hurting each other again, which is something that's on Meg's mind as well, and likely part of the reason why she tries to keep her distance.
Meg seems, after the last Ambrosia, to decide to let herself take another chance, as seen when she asks for Dusa's blessing—which triggers at full hearts, but doesn't require the romance to have started. She goes from questioning what the possible (bad) outcomes would be of trying again, as seen in the exchange further up this post, to choosing to see where things go, one day at a time. She doesn't seem quite ready to tackle all of Zag's questions, but she tries to reassure him in her way.
Meanwhile, Zag's insecurity doesn't go away even if you end up pursuing the romance. It's why Zag is so surprised when Meg implies she's in love with him (which I think was necessary, in order to make clear that his feelings were never one-sided). But even if it's difficult, they have multiple conversations where they attempt to communicate better this go around, and I love that so much.
Even if you choose not to pursue the romance, the success of their arc lies in that they now understand each other better, as Nyx says. They're trying to communicate better, to get past Zag's need for reassurance and Meg's duty to stop him in Tartarus, and I'm very proud of them for that.
#megzag#stygius rants#hadesgame meta#will stygius ever stop loving megzag? never#even after everyone around me is like sure grandma let's get you to bed#no one can keep me from being emotional about this ship
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zagreus pre-canon timeline (2/5)
Back with part 2, because I didn't realize there's a limit of 10 images per post on tumblr. Watch me go over that limit again.
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5
3. HADES TRIES TO EDUCATE HIS SON IN THE SPEAR
We have several remembrances to this effect. (I've always understood remembrances, these slides of Hades lines before each run, as Zag remembering things his father has said to him before).
I would put this one first of all, where Hades appears to be attempting to teach Zagreus how to throw a spear, Hades' preferred weapon. Later on, he seems to become tired of teaching, and mentions the possibility of hiring an instructor. (Straight-up telling his son he has no time to spare...)
This brings us to our next item in the timeline: Achilles!
4. ACHILLES ARRIVES IN THE HOUSE OF HADES, IS ASSIGNED TO BE ZAGREUS' TUTOR
At this point, I would put Zagreus around the equivalent of a teenager's age. It is worth noting that Hades frames this as "it's time for you to learn the bearing of the gods", which is in line with the theme of considering Zagreus immature, etc.
Achilles mentions the same, in his Codex entry on Zagreus. "The Master worried that his heir lacked any firm direction in his life." This becomes a recurrent throughline: Hades delegating the task of subduing Zag's wilful temperament which he himself can't abide, as it runs counter to his expectations of an heir.
I like to believe (this is my headcanon) that the above are Achilles' ruminations at the time of arriving in the House and trying to make sense of it all. I think, after however long they spent training together, he would know that Zagreus does in fact bleed red.
And I'm personally fond of imagining that he accidentally killed Zagreus at least once, since that is the likeliest explanation I can find for this remembrance:
5. ZAGREUS EMPLOYED IN THE ADMIN CHAMBER
At some point after the start of his training with Achilles, Zagreus must have been employed in the Administrative Chamber. (I say it is "after" due to my own headcanon, but it could well have happened before).
He was fired from this duty in a flashback we see in canon, so for that to happen he must have been previously employed there. Such an appointment would be, again, an attempt by Hades to get Zagreus to conform to his expectations for an heir. But Zagreus was ill-suited for parchmentwork and standing around; too restless.
I personally like to imagine this remembrance is in reference to his work at the Admin Chamber.
Next post, we continue looking at Hades' attempts to fix his perfectly loveable son by looking at: MegZag!
< Part 1 | Part 3 >
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thoughts on zag boasting to orpheus
I've been playing on a new save file to look at early conversations in more detail, and I just got this one, from before the idea of breaking Orpheus' pact is even brought up with him. And it made me think that this is the most thoughtful boast I've ever seen.
Yes, Zagreus is being completely ridiculous about his supposed exploits, and no doubt some of those tall tales are just for his own amusement. But I can't help thinking that here, when Orpheus is so depressed and unable to create, there's also an element of Zag wanting to make up a story so insane that it inspires Orpheus out of his funk.
He's having fun and maybe trolling a little bit, sure, but it also feels very much like an attempt to encourage and inspire a struggling friend. And I love him for that.
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megzag thoughts
The above screenshot (pillaged from a post by @toushindai [edit: updated, as I just got it on switch!!]) recently made a lot of questions I’d been having about Zagreus and Megaera’s relationship click for me, and I’m here to wordvomit on you all.
So: Zagreus/Megaera theories, under a cut to spare you from the sheer amount of screenshots I’ve put on this post.
CW for a drive-by mention of BDSM.
Clearly theirs was not an amicable breakup, as we can see from Meg’s defensiveness at the start of canon. And yet for a long time I could not wrap my head around the few dialogue lines we have where the circumstances of said breakup are referenced, such as this one:
Excuse me, sir? You, Mr. I wear my heart on my sleeve and I'm in love with 4 people at once, YOU, "tried not to get too close"?
The "and then I did" part makes perfect sense, but I couldn't figure out why he would have tried to keep his distance in the first place, except then I saw the screenshot at the top of this post, and there was my answer: he tried to keep his distance because of his father.
If Hades pushed them into the relationship, perhaps in hopes that Megaera's work ethic would rub off on his son, who he constantly chides for being "lazy" and "rebellious", then there was no way anything healthy could develop from that starting point. Let me be clear here: I think that, though Hades was the originator of that relationship, and it could have easily been something artificial that never really flourished, it did flourish, because they're actually surprisingly compatible people, to an extent that I don't think either of them (or Hades for that matter) ever expected.
I do think a lot of this is sexual affinity, and it's very clear to me that the way they interact on that level—through the exploration of BDSM dynamics that feed into very specific core parts of their individual personalities and desires—fostered a deeper understanding of each other that most likely developed into a sentimental attachment for both of them, and they each ran away from that in different ways, which led to their break-up.
Zagreus "tried not to get too close"—on some level, he could not trust that anything brought into his life by his father could ever truly work out positively for him. I think he was very aware of the fundamental truth that he was, or at least started out being, just another assignment; Megaera following Hades' direction regardless of how she initially felt at the time, and so it would be hard for him to trust that she was not continuing to be with him out of that sense of duty.
Perhaps this would not have been an insurmountable obstacle, if there had been proper communication between them, except that Megaera is not the type to explicitly state the things Zagreus would have wanted to hear.
For her part, I imagine she was blindsided by her developing feelings just as much if not more than Zagreus. Because yes, being with him was, for all intents and purposes, an assignment. Hence: work. Megaera is someone very good at compartimentalizing, and she would not have been equipped with the lines between her work and her personal feelings becoming blurred in such a way. She could not provide reassurance to Zagreus, because she was digging her heels in and fighting tooth and nail against her own growing attachment to him.
I believe that this impasse, this lack of communication, is what eventually frustrated Zagreus to the point of lashing out verbally. "I said a lot of stupid things", he tells her during the apology I screenshotted above, and I don't doubt that he did. But I don't think he can be fully blamed for the failure of the relationship; I think both of them failed to rise above the difficulties in their path.
And that history, interpreted in that way, is why I think they work so well on their second attempt, which we see in canon. Why? Because although progress is slow, and they're physically pitted against each other (once again, Hades fucking with their relationship), I think they both have developed an awareness of what failed the first time, and show a willingness to do better.
Yes, Meg is mean to him at first. But consider this:
It is specifically stated to us that Meg never wanted the assignment of stopping Zagreus at the edge of Tartarus. She was forced to take it, again, out of obligation, and she was determined to excel in it because she does not know how to not strive for perfection in her professional life. But she never wanted it.
She says as much to Zagreus the second time she goes to talk to him in his room (as seen above). Just before that, she tells him, once Tisiphone and Alecto become added to her assignment, that her sisters' involvement "takes some of the pressure off" of her. The pressure being, I imagine, the weight of her responsibilities—meaning, there’s some room for her to try to conceive of the relationship from a different angle.
Zagreus doesn't understand what she's saying at first—again, they're not about to win any awards for effective communication, but instead of recoiling from it, they are clearly making an effort. While Megaera never apologizes or references her part in the failure of their relationship (something I hope she would eventually do), she is clearly shown attempting to make amends, much in the same way that Zagreus is.
Perhaps, in some way, it is her ability to separate work from play that gets her out of her funk the second time around. In Tartarus they may have to kill each other, and I suspect this is not ideal from either of their perspectives—Zagreus at least states that he could do without that part of their encounters—but they seem to find a rhythm that doesn't in any way discount from their relationship. Which, I've said this before and I'll say it again: it's romantic as much as sexual, thank you very much. She actually heavily implies (again, she's not great at explicit feelings talk) that she is in love with Zagreus.
Taking all of this into account, it makes me feel very fond to see them come back together during the game, and I think this is finally when they are able to truly connect.
I also think Thanatos plays a part in this, as Meg's friend and Zagreus' other suitor—she sees them trying to come together despite their misunderstandings, and see how much happier they look, and goes, why should I not deserve that happiness? Why should I not let myself accept that I can have what I want from this? Of course, this headcanon works best if you romance them concurrently, but why wouldn't you?
The friendship between Megaera and Thanatos, specifically the on-going meetings of the "Help I'm In Love With Zagreus And I Can't Get Up" support group around that table in the lounge, clearly enriches both of their individual relationships with Zagreus, as it's shown that they have come to an understanding between them and support each other in their advances.
I might do a similar post with my thoughts about Thanzag at some point, we'll see.
Goodbye for now, and remember: stay hydrated, eat your vegetables, and give Megaera the love and respect she deserves.
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zagreus pre-canon timeline (3/5)
This time: Meg, and her assignment to "bring out maturity" in Zagreus, also known as Meg and Zagreus' disastrous first relationship. Other parts linked below:
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5
6. HADES ARRANGES RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MEGAERA AND ZAGREUS
If you want to read my detailed thoughts on this, please check out my MegZag meta here.
Though Zagreus (as per the codex) has taken easily to Achilles' martial training, and is excelling in that, he continues to be... not quite the son Hades would wish him to be. In a bid to force him to be more mature, he assigns Megaera to "accelerate the process".
This seems to me an arranged relationship which, in spite of the wishes of everyone involved, developed into something more genuine. (Again, see that earlier post for full thoughts!) But it does place Meg in a delicate position of walking the line between fulfilling a duty to the House and her developing rapport with Zagreus. Regardless, they are now involved.
7. ZAGREUS ASSIGNED TO TARTARUS PATROL (?)
Some early conversations with Sisyphus give the impression that Zagreus had visited him in Tartarus before, perhaps in the line of duty. It's possible that, seeing Zagreus flounder in the Admin Chamber, Hades decided to put him on patrol, a relatively more active role. (If he did have that affinity for more active roles recognized, it was probably on Nyx's recommendation, if I had to guess.)
It was either patrol duty or perhaps he was given some limited freedom to venture into Tartarus. Perhaps he ventured a bit too much, if we go by this remembrance:
"Do not stray far again". So he definitely did stray at least once, off where he wasn't supposed to go. It's noteworthy that, prior to his escape attempts, Zagreus does not seem to have visited either Asphodel or Elysium, if we go by these conversations:
Next up, we have some flashbacks and a break-up!
< Part 2 | Part 4 >
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Hey! I was curious on your thoughts on the relationship between Hades and Zagreus if you haven’t already. I always want to believe that Hades does love his son but my god it’s so hard, I think the thing that frustrates me about him is like a lot of dads, they have the power to do better but either 1. They don’t and continue act in there own self righteous way or 2. They do but the damage has been done. I dunno he’s just so interesting and irritating all at once haha
Hey anon! Thanks for the ask! I confess I don't like Hades. He's a very well-written character and very believable in his behavior, and because of that he pushes very uncomfortably against some of my personal issues, and I prefer not to think of him if I can help it. So this answer won't be very charitable toward him.
Endgame spoilers ahead. CW: referenced parental abuse (Hades).
I believe that Hades has a lot of pent-up emotion buried underneath all of his anger, and that some of that emotion was positive once, and became twisted by his own frustration and mistakes. I think Zagreus knows this, being very empathetic, which I credit Hades at least partially for, because Zagreus' insight and hyper-awareness of other people's moods and cues is a very common self-preservation skill in abusive households. I think it's part of the reason he tells Persephone he doesn't hate Hades when she asks, though it's clearly more complicated than that. (Even if she chooses to just accept that answer.)
We see Hades lashing out verbally at Zagreus very often, not just in canon but in remembrances such as this one:
This line, from the moment I saw it, made me think that Hades saw some of Persephone in Zagreus (her green eye that Zag inherited, which seems to bother him in this remembrance). I think that Zagreus was a constant reminder of what he had lost, and he could not find a way to reconcile the grief of having lost it with his responsibility as a father.
He has very little emotional maturity, defaulting so easily to anger instead of attempting to process and be open about those complicated feelings, and so it's no wonder his relationship with Zagreus was so fraught.
As an adult, and especially an adult who has managed his goal and brought Persephone back, I think Zagreus is able to see that his father was going through a difficult time as well, and he probably can't help feeling a measure of empathy, even if it'd be easier not to. He resists every comparison between himself and his father, most notably that I can think of the conversation with Achilles where they discuss polyamory.
It's a theme in Hades that communication is the only real way to solve problems, as these characters are immortal and there are no easy violent fixes. It's also seen throughout all the relationships in it that interpersonal issues can't be fixed overnight; they require work, and caring, and patience.
At the very end of the game, when Persephone asks Zag if he hates Hades, and also when Hades tells him he will make the effort to be better, I think we're being shown the very tentative beginnings of a civil cohabitation between them. It's possible that this was meant to be a hopeful ending to their relationship, though personally I don't see how it's possible to undo what's likely CENTURIES of verbal abuse until even more centuries of hard work have passed (if it's possible at all).
I don't think Zagreus has any moral obligation to forgive all that he's been through, even if he can understand some of the reasons behind it. I think he's going to have to think about that one long and hard, to reconcile his own efforts to be kind with all the hurt that's piled up. But in the end, I hope he can at least get to a point of recovering his damaged self-esteem, and be happy with the support of those around him.
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hey i have a question for u if u feel like looking into it but no pressure at all, what do u think than means in his and zag’s romance scene when he says “you have no concept of which impulses to act upon, and which to keep in check”? im kind of confused but im also stupid
Thank you for the ask! I love talking about characterization. Here's the way I understand that line.
Overall, as a character, Zagreus is very much someone who follows his feelings. If a particular course of action feels right, he will pursue it without balking at the difficulties: take for instance his constant efforts to reunite both Orpheus/Eurydice and Achilles/Patroclus, despite the initial hesitance of the actual people involved, or, most notably, how he decides to escape the Underworld despite being told there's no escape, because throwing himself against that wall over and over again is the right thing to do to honor his feelings.
But while he's somewhat impulsive, he's not inconsiderate. In fact I think (and this is my own impression) that he is very much attentive to other people's wants and needs and tries to read into their words and gestures, always polite, because he has an ingrained desire to please those around him who he feels have never treated him or his loved ones poorly. (This is why Hades and often Alecto get his temper rather than his kindness; Alecto for badmouthing Meg and Hades for being, well, possibly the worst parent ever.)
That leads me back to the relationship with Than. Throughout the interactions with Thanatos, Zag expresses his interest in a way very respectful of Than's boundaries, saying effectively: it feels right to be completely honest about the way I feel and so I'm going to let you know repeatedly, but I'm not going to push you until you're ready to address whatever this is between us. He's very conscientious about it while still being perfectly clear, and I think Than gets more than a little overwhelmed by his own Feelings™ (and more than that, by the necessity to address them, how do?? this is so far out of his comfort zone, help!!) and that's why he often ends the conversations by bamfing away.
And then he finally gets his act together and decides to be as proactive as Zag has been (with some encouragement from Meg, as mentioned in a variant of the scene), and he arrives in Zag's room ready to ride on the coat-tails of Zag's enthusiasm—and Zag, once again, is very conscientious of his boundaries ("I don't want to push you, Than"). And Thanatos is immediately frustrated, because why is Zag holding back for his sake now, of all times, can't he see now is the time to follow whatever impulse got them this far? That's what I think he's feeling when he says, "You have no concept of which impulses to act upon, and which to keep in check". And he needs reassurance, because he's put himself in this very new and vulnerable situation and he's probably starting to feel insecure seeing that Zag is still giving him space, not realizing that he's not crossing any lines that Thanatos doesn't want him to cross. That prompts the famous, "What are you waiting for? I'm here, already... right?" And that's when it clicks for Zagreus, all of it, and he says, "you're right", and approaches him. They're finally on the same page. FTB!
I hope that helps, anon, or that you enjoyed reading it regardless!
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zagreus pre-canon timeline (4/5)
Let's dive into some House of Hades drama. We're getting close to canon times now.
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5
8. ZAGREUS' FAILURE TO MEET HADES' STANDARDS PUT STRAIN ON MEGZAG'S RELATIONSHIP
This is my own imagining of the events that led up to the break-up, which we know was anything but amicable. (I wrote a whole dang fic exploring some of what I think failed in MegZag 1.0, aside from my meta posts.)
At no point do we get any remembrances of Hades seeming pleased with Zagreus' performance at any of the tasks assigned to him. So, time passes, and Zagreus continues not to meet the standards of what he considers worthy. Hades' attempt to instill "the bearing of a god" via Achilles' training seem not to work in the expected way, and Meg's influence doesn't appear to curb his wilfulness either.
(To some extent, Zagreus does acknowledge himself that he used to be a lot more immature before canon, but that's a whole other post for another time.)
I think at this point, Hades probably begins to grow impatient with Meg, seeing no "improvement" in his son. This puts additional pressure on her to perform that duty, and by focusing on the "duty" aspect of the relationship, Zagreus begins to feel more and more disillusioned as his feelings appear to be unrequited; she would not have opened up about any feelings on her side.
This lack of communication eventually leads Zagreus to say some pretty hurtful things, which is what deals the final blow to the relationship. It's possible that he told her hated her, or something of that caliber, if we go by this apology in canon which seems oddly specific:
So yeah, lots of miscommunication, Zagreus grows frustrated and says some very insensitive things, and their relationship falls apart.
9. ZAGREUS FIRED FROM THE ADMINISTRATION CHAMBER
This is the second of the two flashbacks we get to see in canon. Zagreus, who seems to have become rather despondent at this point (he was napping! he overslept! whomst!), is running late to his shift in the Admin Chamber.
This one element in the timeline I'm 100% certain of. It is a flashback. Not only does it get prefaced with "Even earlier..." (contrasting the "Earlier..." that precedes the flashback of Zag finding Persephone's letter), it also shows us Zagreus on duty in the Admin Chamber at a time when the player has not yet been granted access to that room. We are witnessing the event that likely got Zag barred from there.
Note that Zagreus, in this conversation, shows again signs of dissatisfaction with life in the House (he sleeps his days-or-nights away, and complains that every moment is the same). I'll return to this later.
As the player, you interact with any number of tasks in the chamber and perform poorly at them all, leading to an argument with Hades.
This scene has a very "last straw" feel to it, at least to me. Every attempt that Hades has made to mold Zagreus into the son he wanted has failed. This no doubt also contributes to Zag's lack of self-esteem. I'm out of image space for this post, but Zagreus does say to Thanatos at one point, "I used to think I was no good for anything." Yeah.
When he wakes up from his "nap" (jump back to present time), Zagreus says, "At least I can't be late for that job anymore", which is further evidence that we're seeing a flashback.
The next post will be the last one!
< Part 3 | Part 5 >
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megzag thoughts, part 2
A few months ago I wrote a long post about how I interpret Megaera and Zagreus’ history (found here). This post builds on those points, starting from the assumption that Meg and Zag’s first relationship was orchestrated by Hades, as one of the in-game remembrances seems to imply.
Under the cut for (you guessed it) length and tons of screenshots. (Also, more drive-by mentions of BDSM).
I’ve talked before about how Megaera is really, really not the type to explicitly state her more vulnerable feelings. This is partly due to her personality, but also, I think, because she’s really good at reading people and interpreting body language. (She would have to be! Insight is helpful for any interpersonal task, and I’d say torturing the wicked for all of eternity qualifies).
This insight is one of the reasons she and Thanatos get on like a house on fire, aside from their dedication to their respective duties; they understand each other on an implicit level, and they don’t need words to know they have each other’s back. It’s also the reason she can smell it a mile away when Zagreus starts trying to get back into her good graces.
So, being a good judge of character, Meg conversely expects the people close to her to understand her as intuitively as she understands them. In her eyes, her actions speak for themselves.
(And when she doesn’t want her actions to speak for themselves, she does make it known; most notably, she tells Zagreus that she didn’t choose her assignment of killing him at the edge of Tartarus, and that their fights are just business.)
I’ve said all this before, but I’m emotional about it today because the game just gave me the following gem:
The way I read this when I got it was: “I’m showing Zagreus with my behavior around him that I care about him, but he still seems to need me to put it in words, HELP”. It’s hilarious, and very heartwarming. (It’s very possible that I’m reading too much into this one line, but I think my points stand regardless.)
From her perspective, Meg probably thinks her feelings are obvious and don’t need stating. Multiple times, we see her running away from explicitly attaching words to what’s between her and Zagreus. She tells Zag he asks too many questions, and not to worry about the gossip as long as he’s happy. She reassures him in her own way, and to her it probably feels much more straightforward than it actually comes across as.
But when the person on the other end is someone who craves reassurance the way Zagreus does, “hints” just don’t cut it.
It’s not that he doesn’t get the hints. I do think Zagreus understands that she cares, and he seems happy around her.
He’s also very good at reading social cues—for different and sadder reasons, having grown up feeling unwanted. He’s able to put the pieces together by himself, but it’s not about that. Sometimes he needs to be told outright that he is, in fact, wanted. (He seeks reassurance in a similar way from Thanatos, a bit more directly than he does with Meg.)
Zagreus’ interactions show, time and time again, that he’s incredibly conscientious of other people’s feelings and boundaries, and in part that’s due to the neglect he endured from Hades growing up, being constantly reminded of his shortcomings. He reads into other people’s words and gestures to gauge if he’s welcome or not, and he does it unconsciously, always eager to please.
Which is perhaps why Megaera expects him to understand her feelings (aside from the oblique admission that she’s in love with him). But she of all people, in my opinion, should know that Zagreus needs to be absolved from that guessing game and shown inequivocal approval sometimes.
I say “she of all people” because I’m convinced that’s where the appeal of their sexual dynamic lies, for him. He wants to please, and by submitting to her orders and directions, he is told exactly what he needs to do in order to please. He doesn’t need to guess; he is told and he obeys, and he’s rewarded when he does well.
“Punishment” is also a reward for him in a similar way, since I imagine the pain helps him to empty his mind of the constant looping thoughts and self-doubt. And she would know to give him aftercare, which is another form of reassurance. (All this, of course, is my headcanon, since the game doesn’t go into that level of detail, but it makes sense to me).
In any case, regardless of the depth of their implicit understanding of each other, there’s a lot of water under the bridge that they can’t clear out unless they actively talk and are open with their feelings. The need for communication is something they’re both aware of, I think; it’s just that Zagreus is more receptive to the idea, and better at the execution.
But the screenshot further up this post seems to prove that Meg is coming around. It seems to show that she’s at least aware that she can’t continue to expect Zagreus to be content with the reassurance she provides indirectly and through her actions.
That, in my eyes, is the first step to making their second attempt at a relationship more successful than the first was. From where I’m standing, their first relationship failed because they failed to communicate that they were important to each other, regardless of Hades’ involvement in bringing them together and whatever complications that circumstance introduced.
So, now that they’re choosing to be together again fully of their own volition, they have to recognize the danger of letting implications alone speak for themselves.
This is a very healthy step. And in true Hadesgame fashion, it’s just the beginnings of resolution, because the game always makes it obvious that fixing and maintaining relationships is a constant work-in-progress. The road still stretches ahead of them, there’s still work to do—and I, for one, hope Dusa came to that particular conversation armed with a good bottle of Ambrosia or two.
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hades polycule thoughts
Alright, guess what time it is? Time for Hades polycule thoughts! And specifically, MegZag thoughts, because they don’t get the love they deserve.
Since the idea of the 3 Hades romances symbolizing three types of love (agape, eros and philia) became popular, I’ve seen more than a few people make the frankly baffling leap of logic that, because Thanatos is agape (considered the purest and highest form of love) and Megaera is eros (sexual or erotic love), then the relationship with Thanatos is more meaningful and Meg is just a fuck buddy. Which is a take hotter than Zagreus’ flame feet, and it bothers me a lot.
Let’s be clear. If someone enjoys ThanZag more than MegZag, and decides to turn Meg down in their run (I’m going to assume there’s a non-zero chance someone somewhere doesn’t find her incredibly attractive), then that’s fine. That’s how they choose to see the game and that’s peachy and fine by me.
What bothers me is to see this “ranking” of one relationship as better than the other in the context of the canon polycule, with both of them involved with Zag at the same time.
Cue B*rnie meme, I AM ONCE AGAIN ASKING FOR understanding about healthy polyamory. If you’re on board with both Zagreus ships and specifically the poly option that the game gives us, please don’t rank one romance as “better” than the other. They’re different. Different isn’t better or worse. Different is different. That’s the whole point of polyamory: rather than ask one single person to fulfill every need you may have in a relationship, you have different partners who fulfill different needs.
It’s true that, from what we see in the game, Meg and Zag connect more deeply and readily on a physical level, and sexually they’re clearly very comfortable with each other and know each other very well. But I think a lot of people overlook that they also care about each other deeply, beyond the sex.
Yes, Meg is mean in the beginning, and that’s not great, but there’s a lot of history there that we only get glimpses of, and a lot of frustrations they need to work through before they can get back together, and probably even after. And once they’re together, they seem so happy with each other, and I know I can’t be the only one who sees that.
In conclusion, don’t short-change MegZag. If they’re “about sex”, but y’all are still happy to entertain lots of dirty sex from the ThanZag side, then let MegZag have some of the emotional closeness too.
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You know what I love about writing in-universe? The idea that each god's domain would affect not just their personalities but their surroundings as well as other gods/shades around them. The idea that the presence of a god is such a command on the fabric of reality that reality is forced to yield around them.
Imagine: the flames in the braziers in a room flickering and dimming when Nyx, goddess of Night, comes in. The flowers decorating the House of Hades blooming brighter in Persephone's presence or turning ever-so-slightly towards her, the same way they would seek the sun on the surface. Everybody feeling like their eyelids and their limbs get a little heavy when talking to Hypnos for too long. (Zagreus doesn't linger after coming out of the Styx maybe for this reason).
And in a more intimate context, I love the idea of Zagreus as the god of Blood unwittingly influencing his partners. If Thanatos is still as Death, when he's with Zagreus he starts to feel as though he needs breath, or a pulse starts beating in his chest. Megaera, who values control and self-control especially so much, feels a little impulsive in Zagreus' presence and has to hold herself back to avoid getting swept up in it. And if Zagreus were to kiss Achilles or Patroclus, I like to imagine they might feel a little more real and defined; like they're alive again.
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hades meta + fic masterpost.
There is enough content on this blog now that it’s getting a little unwieldy to find old posts, so I’m compiling a masterlist of all my meta posts and fics I’ve linked here (all of which are OK to reblog). This list will be pinned and updated as I make more stuff.
FANFIC (posts tagged #stygius writes)
"Poster Boy" ThanZag, College AU, rated T. Thanatos models for a new recruitment poster for the debate club. Zagreus tries not to be absolutely smitten with him and fails, with some perks. tumblr post / ao3
"Death's Embrace" ThanZag, Hypnos. rated G. Thanatos develops a migraine from the brightness of the surface world. After bringing Zagreus back to the House of Hades, Hypnos offers to help alleviate the headache via magical Greek god of Sleep superpowers. tumblr post / ao3
"heart of the garden" Hades/Persephone/Nyx, Persephone POV poem. tumblr post / ao3
"Call the Name of God and Pray That He Will Listen" ThanZag, Gothic Vampire AU, rated T. Thanatos is a vampire-hunting priest whose life would be far less complicated if he weren't harboring a vampire in his home and also, possibly, in love with said vampire. tumblr post / ao3
"Reap What You Sow" [nsfw] ThanZagMeg, rated E. Thanatos keeps showing up throughout Zagreus' attempts to escape the Underworld, and their competitions have become a mere prelude to sex. Zagreus talks to Megaera about it, and she decides an intervention is in order. tumblr post / ao3
“Someone Who Cares” [nsfw] Zagreus/Achilles, rated E. Being Prince of the Underworld isn’t easy when you’re constantly being reminded of all the ways you’re not good enough. Fortunately, Achilles is there to show Zagreus he has people who care about him. tumblr post / ao3
“Paradigm Shift” Hypnos, Chaos, Thanatos, rated G. Hypnos visits Chaos’ realm in a dream, looking for insight about how to gain Nyx’s approval, & grandparent/grandchild bonding ensues. tumblr post / ao3
“Power of Persuasion” MegZag, rated T. Zagreus stops by Megaera's chambers unannounced, with a bottle of booze and every intention of distracting her from her parchmentwork. She's into it, but she still makes him put in the effort to persuade her. tumblr post / ao3
“A Supplicant Cry” ThanZag, rated E. Thanatos returns to the House of Hades ahead of schedule. Zagreus is suprised to have him back early, but he knows how to make the most of that situation. tumblr post / ao3
“Drunken Revelry” ThanZag, rated T. Thanatos has maybe had a little too much to drink. tumblr post / ao3
“Echoes that Linger” Megaera, Patroclus, side MegZag and Patrochilles (referenced), rated G. Achilles talks at length about Patroclus, once he's had enough to drink. Megaera wonders if there's anything left of the man he remembers, and decides to find out, with a little help from Zagreus. Pre-reunion. tumblr post / ao3
“A Reasonable Explanation” PZA (patzagchilles), rated E. Zagreus gets a Kiss of Styx and a regular kiss from Patroclus, which isn’t meant as a message to Achilles, and he needs a minute to process everything. tumblr post / ao3
“A Soul Reforged” PatZag, rated E. Patroclus worships his stranger, a far kinder deity than any he knew of in life. tumblr post / ao3
“Hard to Port” SkelZag, rated E. Curious to know more about who Skelly was in life, Zagreus ends up dreaming about him as Schelemeus the ship captain, and his curiosity takes the dream down a different avenue. tumblr post / ao3
“Royal” ThanZag, rated T. Thanatos stops by to watch an artist shade paint the family portrait. tumblr post / ao3
“Petals for Armor” MegZag, rated E. When Megaera falls ill with a strange affliction, she tries to keep it secret, especially from Zagreus. But as her condition worsens and becomes harder to hide, she realizes she can't keep him at arm's length forever. Sooner or later, something's got to give. tumblr post / ao3
“Champion Material” PZA, rated T. Achilles and Patroclus go to the arena to see Zagreus fight. That's the plan, anyway, until Theseus says a few things he shouldn't, and has to deal with the consequences. tumblr post / ao3
“Heed the Call” ThanAres, rated T. After confronting Zagreus in Elysium, Thanatos follows the pull of a dying soul on the surface. When he arrives, he finds before him a battlefield, and Ares covered in blood as red as Zag's. tumblr post / ao3
“Not Alone” MegZag, rated T. Zagreus takes a moment away from the bustle of the Olympians’ feast. Meg goes to find him. tumblr post / ao3
“Cross the Line” MegZag, rated E. Zagreus knows his fights with Meg are separate from their trysts back home. His body has a little more trouble telling the difference. tumblr post / ao3
“The Cycle Unbroken” Asterius & Zagreus, rated G. Mentor Asterius AU. What if Asterius had been Zag’s mentor instead of Achilles? Someone who lived trapped in a labyrinth, mentoring someone trying to break free. tumblr post / ao3
“Inexorably” ThanZag, rated M. Beneath the House of Hades, there's a dark hallway where creation unspools and Thanatos can't hear the souls of mortals calling anymore. Zagreus finds him there. tumblr post / ao3
“Last Pure Heart Upon the Hill” ThanZag, rated M. SEQUEL to Call the Name of God. Thanatos is a vampire-hunting priest possibly in love with a vampire, Zagreus. But Zagreus has long since left Thanatos' home to go live in Olympus, his family's domain, and has not returned. If he wants to see Zagreus again, Thanatos' only choice seems to be to go to Olympus himself, entering vampire territory and exposing himself to any manner of fearful things that await him there, among them the answer to the way he feels. tumblr post / ao3
META (posts tagged #stygius rants)
Hades polycule (ThanZagMeg): the differences in their dynamic
MegZag: theories on previous relationship and in-game dynamic
MegZag, part 2: potential evolution of their current relationship
MegZag, part 3: difficulties of the romance arc
Thoughts on the Narrator
ThanZag: why does Thanatos help Zag so much?
ThanZag: analysis of Thanatos' dialogue in the romance scene
Chthonic bros: Thanatos & Hypnos
Thoughts about Nyx and her relationships
ThanZag: What do Zagreus and Thanatos see in each other?
Megaera & Thanatos: Thoughts on their friendship
Zagreus Pre-Canon Timeline: Part 1 (other parts linked in post)
Headcanon of the layout of the House of Hades
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