#probably some of my questions could be mathematically modeled and tested but ehhhhhh | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

odditycollector · 7 years

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Anti-Parallel Evolution

[disclaimer: as always with just-so stories, i'm talking 'what i enjoy believing' not 'true with any authority']

This is kinda a continuation of my semi recent homestuck myth post, and kinda a continuation of my not even a little recent blackrom post**.

**[Which I think still holds up, although if I was re-writing it today I'd put either way less or way more effort into bullshitting the low-level mechanisms of reproduction, 'cause that's the least thought-out part & it shows. tldr: I enjoy believing trolls have many more than 2 parents.]

And alas but I've gotta ruin the "true thing” hidden in the homestuck myth post to go on with this one.

It's the last bit, where the early proto-trolls were, as a swarm, a single(ish?) superorganism in the way that a colony of earth ants or termites or bees can be best understood as a single superorganism, but then as the trolls evolved they became more and more individualistic until they are as we meet them.

Things that make more sense this way:

variation between "castes"

eg, why are there sea trolls? why are deep blue trolls apparently hoarding all the superstrength? why are there powers that you'd expect to find in yellows or ceruleans respectively... but not v.v.?

a: because at one time they were specialized "cells" of a superorganism, where the castes had different functions like how ants have soldiers and workers and breeders.

and those divisions were either too useful (for some definition of "useful") or too genetically baked in to be completely erased yet even if they've blurred.

incestuous slurry

eg, if the endgame is sexual reproduction, why not just have two parents and less confusion (even if imo it would be a waste of thinking about aliens)

a: because primitive superorganisms, to the best of my knowledge of science's knowledge, only hold together when they are all genetically similar. (This is why a cell in your liver is willing to cast its lot with a cell in your brain it will never meet.) Otherwise, individuals will *cheat* - find a way to reproduce outside what is best for the entire superorganism, and after that there are *more* genetic cheaters, who cheat more, and then... death by extremely slow existential cancer, is almost what it sounds like I'm describing here?

How genetically similar *are* trolls then?

no idea, but here is the thing: even if genetic similarity is GREAT for cooperation, it is CRAP for being a viable species that is not going to go the way of the genetically identical eating bananas - currently in the process of all getting killed by one disease strain. And if you're an r-selected** species - many many children, low resource investment, low survival to adulthood rates - you can afford to do a lot of genetic experimenting (ie, have a high mutation rate) because the fucked up ones will just die, like most of them do anyway, and hey, you never know.

**[Or close enough for this post.]

So this is what I'm positing.

your dna goes into the slurry, baby trolls come out of the slurry. check. but which baby trolls are made of YOUR dna in particular? Well, who's counting, but probably a lot. like "more than you'd get with 2 parents per troll" a lot.

If you have 20 paired chromosomes and (with some help >;) ), you split them down the middle and make 2 kids with half your dna each, you have an investment in getting those 2 kids as far in life as you can, because that's the whole you.

but split them further - say one chromosome per kid - and now you have *40* kids you're invested in seeing survive in order for there to be a whole copy of you still floating around in the 2nd generation.

But at the same time, you have way *less* of an investment in each one of those 40 than when it was only 2. And again, who's counting? Any number of the baby trolls crawling inside the caverns could have bits of you in their mix.

Instead of caring a *lot* about *some* members of your species, you care a *little* about *all* of them.

Maybe that's enough to get a species to hang out together? That'd be worth the energy it’d cost to do it if it'd be so.

That and... *one* other thing.

Cheaters, remember?

The way insects do it is central control. The non-queen individuals biologically cannot** reproduce on their own terms.

**[or close enough for this post]

oh hey, *who does that sound like*?

The thing I like to believe is trolls don't make eggs on their own, and haven't for millions and millions of years, b/c once upon a time when they still did make eggs they parasitized the proto-mothergrub species the way wasps lay their eggs in caterpillars, and this became proto-trolls parasitizing the proto-mothergrub species by making them make eggs containing proto-troll dna, and this became whatever is going on today.

(If you think that is too neat and unlikely you should look into the terrifying shit Earth insects have managed to get up to.)

So, with all that, could a species introduce significant genetic variation at the individual level and still survive as a superorganism?

Well...

it *didn't*, did it?

[And here's a thought.

[Spiders - singular insects - are r-selected the way trolls seem to be. Lots of eggs, few to reach adulthood, competition intense.

[but are *hive bees* r-selected?

[arguably, they are not. bee colonies don't make as many new bees as possible, they only make as many new bees as they need, and they provide the baby bees honey to eat and nursemaids to take care of them until they become adult bees.

[and isn't it kinda weird that post-pupation trolls seem somehow, like, *injured* by growing up by themselves in a harsh world, even though it “should” be what they are evolved for?

[Maybe they're meant to be less r-selected than we assume.

[That last bit's not What I Like To Believe(tm), but it's a thought.]

Wow that single quick intro paragraph got away from me a little :/

Anyway, parallel evolution is when two species, faced with similar constraints, evolve similar traits to deal with those constraints.

eg, flying squirrels and flying lizards both glide around on flaps of skin, but they have not shared an ancestor for a very very long time - They both developed the flying thing separately.

Humans... okay, we all know about humans, right? We were once more individualistic creatures but then we slowly, piecemeal, learned the trick of inter-group cooperation and used it to take over the world.

So humans were individuals who learned group-ishness, and trolls were a group that learned individuality, and then we all met together somewhere in the middle.

That’s what I think would be cool.

[bonus question: Humans have developed *intER*group cooperation. Trolls were starting from a place of *intRA*group connection and working backwards. Which one of us d'you suppose would be better at making interspecies friends, come alien contact?]

And the interesting part is, in both cases, you get there the same way.

via neoteny!

neoteny is when a species evolves to keep more child-like traits into adulthood. It's what fuels the domestication process - being docile and curious and trusting and friendly is a phase for *babies*. ...And/or any species that 1. naturally goes through that phase and 2. hangs around humans too long.

Including humans.

We are all giant whiny babies who have no one to blame but ourselves. That is science facts.

And genes are complicated and stuff so when you change the behaviour of a species you change the physical traits of the species as well, and a domesticated animal will keep child-like markings/features/etc into adulthood and that's why dogs have floppy ears.

But! Back to homestuck trolls.

It is easy to read what we are given in-comic as "these kids are growing less violent as they get older, and at the very beginning of their humanoid life - the 'trials' - they had to be really quite vicious indeed".

To illustrate my headcanons here’s a snippet from an old thing I wrote:

At about 5 sweeps is where things get interesting.

The trials are long over, and so the slow wave of settlement. There are enough resources to go around; bloodlust is falling out of fashion with the inexorable change of brain hormones. Suddenly, everyone is interested in figuring out the *rules*.

or:

“Yes,” she says. “Sure. Right. Karkat, you’ve survived this long with less challenge than anyone else I’ve known. Here.”

Kanaya pries the book from him and searches through it for a passage. “…proximity to the parasite has been observed to actuate the development of premature empathy in adolescent trolls.”

“Premature empathy,” Karkat repeats. “You mean that being around me makes trolls less aggressive. Just by *existing* at you, I made you *weak*. Oh fuck. I’m so sorry.”

I could argue my case in depth but it's not that unusual a theory and I don't wanna go on another whole essay tangent.

But the kid trolls only know what adults are like from their media, which is explicitly mentioned to make stuff just for kids, who are into violence. Maybe the troll child-friendly channel is the one with all the goriest stuff on it, idk, but I def. do not believe there is no adult-audienced media anywhere in the fleet.

So like

Humans: Neoteny --> more childlike --> more trusting, curious, and friendly

Trolls: Neoteny --> more childlike --> more individualistic and uncooperative

See? *backwards*

(And Her Imperious Condescension sure looks cool to the hs troll kids, but maybe she's just a spoiled brat who never really grew up. Not like THAT's not a theme for Homestuck villains.)

And now... here we are.

And the real reason I brought us all this way is because it opens up an potentially amusing cultural mismatch.

We have certain associations with facial proportions, right? It's neoteny all over again (and also some sexism but).

And maybe trolls have the opposite associations... for the same reasons**!

**[Yes I am assuming trolls have similar childhood traits because otherwise it isn’t funny.]

here are some neoteny linked traits:

low, large eyes small chin, nose large head:body size ratio short stature invokes the general abstract concept of roundness somehow etc.

Human RX:

adorable! helpless/vulnerable/needs protection i just met it and i loooove it! does it need hugs cause i have extra hugs just lying around here compelled to hold/pet/cuddle it

Troll RX (suggested):

vicious/violent/dangerous leave it alone or it will bite you probably unpredictable/disloyal selfish likely to end up dead anyway so not really worth caring about instinctual revulsion (judging from karkat + grubs)

and some anti-neotony linked traits:

smaller eyes, higher in head larger nose, jaw taller with smaller head:body ratio etc.

Human RX:

more likely to be dangerous (poss. in protection of itself/bonded others) suffers fools less than gladly, see also: unwanted attention self-sufficient jealous of resources/not good at sharing closed off/suspicious

Troll RX (hypothesized):

more emotionally stable more socially adept/a potential friend or ally competent/proven sex haver competent/proven at self protection safer to let down your guard around it able to usefully cooperate in groups towards shared goal

Okay? Okay.

okay......

So then imagine Karkat's reaction the first time he gets a puppy shoved in his face.

The end.

I'm out of typing now.

#homestuck #it is also interesting to imagine what human/troll couples would see when they look at each other #probably some of my questions could be mathematically modeled and tested but ehhhhhh #probably r-selection isn't really a thing anymore exactly but ehhhhhh #trolls are terrible

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