My stance on P5 (cause apparently I need to explain myself :/)

So someone just told me someone was vagueing about me on the confessions blog (can’t say my name cause it’s against the rules but they’ll try to get as specific as they can 🙃 if you have issues just be a real anon hater and send to my inbox directly you coward). And I’m not going to do a reblog to that post, because I’m pretty sure that person must be on my blog. Because the post they were vagueing me about was......not tagged.....in the P5 tagged (I did not tag it as P5 nor Persona 5), it was just a post that was on my blog (now if it showed up in the tag or search I dunno why but I didn’t tag it for P5 for a gd reason cause I keep it to my blog). The post was me pointing out how P5 when they first enter Futaba’s dungeon they didn’t have shoes on, but after the cutscene they DID. The post was more comical (with me getting salty in the tags, but then you’d have to go out of your way to read my tags). And tbh, I’m half and half, yeah I know it’s a nitpick, and I’d just chalk it up to an animation error and let it go usually, but it’s P5 and that game is already inconsistent with it’s plot/world building/characters/anything important that I’m like “nah I’mma rag on it cause it’s just one more thing they screwed up” so I’m like half let it go and half rag on it (fun fact, when I saw they didn’t have shoes on I was gonna make a post saying “hey look this is cool, nice attention to detail” and then they messed it up literally 2 seconds later so dklsjf;afa yeah). (oh and btw, it wasn’t just “one” character, it was the whole PT cast at the time 8U” at least get it right 8U)

But the thing is......that was just a post on my blog, I’m not me berating the P5 tag. So that means you, person who vagued me, tend to go on my PERSONAL BLOG. So like....why are you on here? No, don’t ask me about me and P5, I will answer that, but you answer why are you bothering looking at my personal blog? Is it cause of certain content I post? Then just blacklist certain tags (like my “silly plays” tag cause nothing really interesting happens in that tag, or my more negative “persona problems” type tags), I know I need to be better at tagging my asks, but if you like my original content then just.....go to the OG content tags (aka videos/pictures/edits/coloring)? That way you avoid anything not made by me? Or if you don’t have a reason and you’re just here to be mad cause someone doesn’t like your game, then block me. You don’t seem to like me, so just....why are you here? You seem to want to ask why I’m here with P5, and I have my reasons, but if you don’t have a reason to be on my blog then why are you on it?

I’m not saying this to be mean, but I don’t want to be policed, esp if someone is going to be hypocritical about it. And it’s annoying to see vaguing (cause imo you are as bad as someone who sends anon hate, but you don’t have the balls to just send it to me directly XP)

Ok now where’s my stance on P5? I don’t like it, but it’s a part of a larger series and lore which I do LOVE! Which means, considering I’m a LORE WHORE, it doesn’t feel right to just skip a game esp if it could contain info about the MegaTen/Persona lore (or even Character lore) I want to know. In fact, I really hate it when I’m talking lore with someone and if expanded info is brought up from a side game they are like “Oh I didn’t play that game so it’s not canon” No Bethany, just because YOU didn’t play a game doesn’t mean it’s not canon. And no, no one is bullying you over the fact you didn’t play it, you just don’t like being wrong and the person was like “Ok well it IS canon and it’s in the game, you don’t have to play it but you.....can’t ignore this fact, also why are you arguing this part of the lore when it’s heavily established in said game you ignored???? I mean you do you but don’t get mad when someone corrects you. No one’s forcing you to do anything.” Ahhhhrrrrgggh so many convos I’ve seen happen, I’m not going to be on the end that I hate. DX<

Also, P5 is not the entire Persona fandom, so while I put up with it and indulge in it by association, it doesn’t have the ownership of the fandom (like with all the original games+ spinoffs+all remakes/ports and P5S/P5R included, but not mobile games, it’s only 23% of all of Persona in terms of game entries, and that’s overlapping with crossover games, and if we included other stuff P5 is def a minor aspect in terms of entries). It’s not that hard, I’m just a bigger all around Persona fan than I am a Persona 5 critic (I don’t want to say hater, because it feels like it sounds like I’m hating it just to hate it, when really it was a game I was excited for and loved and then it just burned me bad and I’m just dealing with the scorn). Always keep in mind, I loved P5 before I hated it, it’s probably why I’m as salty about it as I am, because I love P5′s potential and....I was just let down (it wasn’t unrealistic expectations, like I said earlier, P5 contradicts itself.....all over the place, it’s hard to ignore and it’s not something that was as big of an issue, or even an issue at all, in other games). 

Why do I still post P5 stuff when I don’t like P5 (by which I mean...posting about the OG manga raws, or wanting to do a partial game to anime dub or even would be willing to help with editing a fandub for the anime)? Because I remember being a newbie Persona/Megaten fan, getting into the series, and wanting to know more about it and it’s side materials but then not being able to have access it any of it (because it was still prettty niche when I first joined and I had no money at the time). I want to give people access to it! Sure it’s harder for me to now to devote time to it (than it was a few years ago), but I want to help with giving access to this Persona/Megaten stuff now that I have some ability! And it also means P5 as well gets some of that love. 8U

As for why I was replaying P5, so this is one thing that’s making me wonder if you are a regular on my blog or not because I’ve been talking about playing the Korean version (but in my one post I forgot to type “silly plays P5/Persona 5 KOREAN” so yeah I forgot to specify Korean at the end). So tbh....I’m actually ignoring P5′s writing while I play (cause I’m just going through the gameplay motions), cause I don’t know korean. 8U And I’m mostly using that tag as a means to point out different things in the korean ver (no that much, but yes Ryu’s shoes ARE censored 8U). But why? Well.....I talk about it here and there but anon/person....1) I’m a trophy whore, I love plat trophies and P5′s is super easy I can get it (and I’m not above playing bad games, oh yeah burn, I’ve played a lot of bad games for plats, and I’ve also played the same games multiple times for plats, I do this to myself but really I don’t mind replaying P5 4+ times for 4+ plats esp since I don’t really have to pay attention). 2) I’m a big MegaTen/Persona collector, I want all the plats I can have (I plan on platting the other versions of the all the dancing games on Vita and PS4, P4G, and the versions of Catherine I don’t have, like I legit have a gd excel sheet keeping track of the versions of Megaten games I don’t have yet....I’m just doing P5 cause it’s 1) one of the easiest to do and 2) it was easier to get my hands on them atm). I don’t talk about my trophy hunting on here that much tbh, but that’s.....really a big reason why I’m doing it (plus with the Korean/CHinese ver I don’t have to pay attention to any story so it’s all good! :D) Yeah I do it to myself, but I don’t really mind. 8U And I mean I tend to keep most of my P5 issue on my blog too. I think the only two posts that I put in the P5 tag were 1) a few consistency issues I wanted to meme about (aka the I’m about to head out post, which was actually the 2nd post I made on that topic but I decided to just meme that one, so I thought it was better than me just bitching, at least I tried to make it a bit funny yet informational 8U), and 2) something that I tbh had an issue since I back when I liked P5 (aka wishing they worked on speeding up the loading times and the fast forward feature), so since I was playing the game I was like “That reminds me, man I hope they fix this in the re-release!”. As for english P5, the only reason I’ll be playing P5 OG in english is for either archiving reasons or research reasons (probably both at once so I don’t have to play through it more than once again).

As for P5R, uhhhhh I’m excited for Kasumi (Jose is cool too, and the new dungeon has me interested too, and all the P2 demons coming back to it makes me wonder what else is/if anything is coming back), she’s my main draw. Yeah it’s connected to P5R, but she looks so much like Hamuko I JUST HAVE TO KNOW WHAT’S UP WITH HER! Hamuko’s my girl, and I need to know if Atlus is going to do something with that, or if I need to be pissed for them literally lifting Hamu’s face! Am I gonna get pissy about P5R’s new add-ons (aka, I’m aware that P5R is probably going to keep the issues from OG P5, so I’mma just judge P5R based on it’s new content)? Yeah, if they kept up the same writing P5 OG had. So yeah, I’m probably going to get pissy if they eff it up, but I’m not going in pissy, going in with really low expectations tbh, but I’m giving it a chance. But if they don’t eff up the new stuff then......that’s good! It means they did something right. So far Kasumi is not Marie so we’re off to a good start. I’m hoping the keep that momentum. 8U

So yeah, I think I have valid reasons for staying, maybe you don’t like it anon/person, but they are there. 

tldr; someone feels like the need to police me despite the fact they could just ignore me (even tho it seems like they specifically came to my blog to get mad, rather than me clogging up the tag, like I post there maybe once or twice every 2 months). My stance on P5 is that I deal with it cause it’s part of a bigger fandom I’m a part of and the fact I love the lore of that bigger fandom so it’s not like I can ignore it. I also have a Playstation trophy problem. 8U And I’m excited for Kasumi is that so bad???? (also I didn’t mention it, but Anne/Haru are enough to keep me around 8U)

@anotheralix wrote a post that can be summed up as “how about we ditch the double standards surrounding how we talk about female and male protagonists.” She even admit she does this herself with Clarke Griffin (100) and Elena Gilbert (The Vampire Diaries). It’s not a particularity nuanced post - but it wasn’t meant to be. It was a vent. A vent, in particular, how women are judged differently than men.

This is not a shocking rant. This is a self evident perspective shared by many women across time in different cultures. Look, I could get into the science and cite different articles and meta-analysis that back up the idea women are held to higher standards than men. But not everything is about meeting high standards when creating an argument. Sometimes you want to make short rant on your tumblr about sexism and move on.

But, see, @candyumberella responds to this post. Not a problem in itself. But how and what she says reveals that her issue is not with creating inter sectional spaces for women to talk about feminism. No, I think she hates that female fans sometimes really love female leads.

I’m going to take apart some of her arguments under the cut.

“I think it’s pretty telling that whenever people get uncomfortable with seeing a female character (espically the most privilaged white female character in a ‘verse whose narrative is based on and constructed around her privliage) criticized in any way, they knee-jerk respond with, "You wouldn’t do this with a white man!”

Let’s unpack this. There are two claims in here that I disagree with: female leads are constructed around her privilege and being critical of the knee-jerk response. I’ll with the second first, because it’s easier to address. Yes. Women, particularly women who have been influenced by feminist thought, tend to get frustrated when women are held to a higher standard than men. It happens. It’s annoying. And I believe it’s understandable. The fact that @candyumbrella doesn’t acknowledge that female heroines are held to higher standards is a glaring omission. If she took into account how misogyny and sexism hurts all women, her arguments about how women are treated in fandom would fall apart. I mean, even more so than pointing out the existence of The Golden Girls and its large fandom does.

The second part is that her claim, espically the most privilaged white female character in a 'verse whose narrative is based on and constructed around her privliage is not backed by any evidence at all. Now, @anotheralix doesn’t give powerful evidence herself, but that’s because it was a short vent about sexism. @Candyumberlla takes issues with this vent because of a weird ass Interpretation of All TV Based On One Sitcom. If you’re going to take issue with someone complaining about sexism, and how this post complaining about sexism is a problematic trend in fandom as a whole, you need some convincing arguments. Otherwise you look like a sexist apologist.

But here, I’m going to argue against her claim by pointing to Buffy. White female lead - skinny and blond to boot! But the premise of the worldview of Buffy isn’t that she’s the most privileged character in her world. She spends a good portion of it struggling against the Watchers Council (aka patriarchy) in order to use her own power on her own terms. Buffy being pretty and tiny and girly is the fucking point - because society sees women who look like her as empty shells. Buffy being the undisputed heroine of her own story is and was an attack on that worldview.

Buffy didn’t do great about race. It’s treatment of Kendra Young has not aged well, to put it politely. It’s peek manufactured whiteness. As for queer issues, while Willow/Tara was groundbreaking, but there’s as much to critique as there is celebrate. Fans of Buffy do this all the fucking time. There is nuance to be had and Buffy’s got plenty of academic and fannish work exploring that nuance. It’s failures and it’s successes.

But

It’s not about the injustice of misogyny so much as people wanting their female fave to not be criticized and using her gender as a catch-all reason why she shouldn’t be.

That’s a pretty unfair statement. Loving and being fannish about female characters can be an exercise in frustration in fandom. I don’t know how many times I went in the tags for Elena Gilbert only to see fans calling her a two-faced and manipulative in very gendered ways. Slut. Bitch. Whore. I’m glad a dude is beating her up and putting her in her place. Speak true to that ungrateful bitch, male character I like! This exists in fandom. It puts a lot of people on guard.

Critiquing a character like Elena is not as easy as doing one like Klaus. Because there is baggage there. Misogyny is a thing. It informs how women are framed and treated in the text. It informs audience expectation and reaction. Elena being white didn’t stop her from ending up with her rapist.

So actually, I see plenty of people accusing male characters of making everything about themselves–usually when they want to deflect from criticism directed against their One Special White Girl and do so by perpetuating the lie that ONLY White Men are the REAL Enemy, We Are All Allies Against Them, blah blah.

Because, shockingly, men and women are treated differently in both canon and fandom. I’ve seen @candyumberlla spend more time talking shit about Clarke, Elena, and Donna (Suits) than Oliver (Arrow), Angel (Angel), or Sam or Dean (Supernatural). Even Ted, the privileged white dude who informs all of her meta these days, is not treated with such distaste. She is gleeful about her interpretation of Clarke (she’s being humiliated and dethroned!) She gushes about the Fall of Elena and the Rise of Caroline. She might mock, say, Stefan Salvatore, but she doesn’t the same use belittling and angry language.

Misogyny is informing her meta. Because misogyny is a threat. It’s real. Her attack on female characters is built on centuries of female oppression.

Also:  –usually when they want to deflect from criticism directed against their One Special White Girl

Women and girls can’t just be tired as hell of white male dominance in their world? Critiques against male dominance in media are About Protecting That White Women. 

MOST privileged woman in a ‘verse appropriating and parasitizing those LESS privileged and LESS institutionally elevated than she–so she’s not the victim in this scenario, she’s the oppressor.

Prove it. When and how did Clarke, Elena, Veronica, Buffy, Rey, or any other white female characters target more vulnerable women. Hard mode: look their stories in context of a male dominated society with white dudes being the ones who generally created their stories. Remember internalized misogyny is not just those Bad Female Fans Who Like The Wrong White Female Leads and how much female creators in Hollywood and TV have to balance to just get women to talk to each other without it being about a dude. Honest mode: take into account how the leads have both built up and torn down the women in their lives. Put the narrative into a cultural and historical context.

so this parasitic stanning impulse is just white male worship transmuted in a different form that ~feels more like ~feminism and thus more morally acceptable ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Tell me more about how Clexa fans just love Finn. Or Xena/Gabe fans just thirsting for that dick. Bias is a thing. It influences how we think, feel, and react to things. There is no story that doesn’t fail on some level when it comes to systems of oppression.

But people finding personal power, meaning, or joy in female lead stories doesn’t mean they just really want the dick. Korra/Asami fans don’t tend think too much of Mako. Buffy/Faith shippers may have an opinion about Angel and Spike, but they’re generally more interested in the charged relationship between Faith and Buffy. Sailor Moon fandom does have a good chunk of het, but lesbian content and focus on friendship between women is one of the reasons it’s still beloved by many people.

Or, hell, maybe actually allow for the idea that maybe a het shipper is more invested in the female half than the male half and it’s not due to her status as a guy who was killed off and the fandom as a whole cheered.