the way that this episode had a better grasp on bucky's innocence than the entirety of tfatws

I'm sorry you have to deal with the billy stans. I tried once, but they wouldn't listen to a word I say.

Like when I brought up that Max was verbally abused they twisted in a way that because she yelled at Billy and drugged him she was also an abuser who was on the same level as his dad because she used the words Neil used on Billy. However, they really close their eyes at how Billy also uses those words at Max (the Say It and Understand part). They also ignore the context. She had to watch Billy almost kill a guy. What should she have done? Talk him out of it. Drugging was her saving Steve and Billy because he would have murdered him.

Him threatening Max in the car earlier in the season was after Max expressed that she liked it here and it was Billy's fault for them to move, he then had to intimidate her by driving recklessly (putting her in danger for funsies) and wanting to run over a bunch of kids so he has control over Max again. If that isn't abused, idk what is. Or when he broke her skateboard after he found out Max hung out with Lucas at the arcade. It's implied he does this quite often, idk if this is normal sibling behavior, lol. Max even confides to Lucas that Billy takes out his anger on her, but his stans ignore it. She literally cried in front of him, which is big because Max is very closed off.

Also, the way they shit on Steve at the Byers house. Like Steve only lied because Max was terrified of getting hurt by her brother. I could even imagine Lucas begging Steve to do something because he knows about the situation, and he would have picked up on the racist undertones Billy gave him. To say Steve lied for no reason and was in the wrong idk, he didn't want Max to be hurt. Billy would have done something to her. He held in his anger the entire time waiting to explode, and Max already told us she would receive it. Billy didn't care about her he only cared to get her home so he could stay out of trouble. So Steve got Billys anger full unleashed and yeah me may have thrown the first punch (after Billy threatened Lucas and pushed him violenty in a cabinet), but after he was knocked out, Billy never stopped. Some even say Steve deserved it, which is like okay?? But then ship h*rringrove at the same time.

Also, Billy isn't even redeemed in my eyes he never made amends to Lucas and Steve. Maybe he treated Max better, but he still wasn't sorry about his behavior towards Lucas. Max had every right to have complicated feelings about his death. I think that was the thing s4 got right. Her not being able to open up to Lucas or Steve because Billy hurt them, so she retreated and pushed them away. She knew her friends hated her brother because he was awful to them. So she felt like she couldn't tell them she missed him or felt guilty for gis death. At the same time, she felt relief because he couldn't harm her anymore, which also made her feel guilty because that's still her brother.

I get why he acted the way he did, but that doesn't give him a free pass to do whatever. I have a friend who relates to Billy, like she also acted it they way he did, but she never makes excuses for him. She can recognize his faults. Billy needed help, which he sadly never got, that makes him tragic, but he also hurt people along the way, and they also have every right to critique his behavior. Same with people watching the show, they should be allowed to discuss it in a way without others coming for them and harass them (especially if you tag it accordingly).

I'm sorry this is kinda long, but you can't say this on here, or you will be hunted down and ridiculed. (Also, you can totally ignore this if you don't want to have this discourse anymore)

No bc you're so right I'm just so over Billy that I can't be bothered to add more.

Perfectly worded, I find Billy an interesting character for sure, because the abuse cycle, the patterns of trauma infliction, it gives a new perspective to how abuse affects people.

The Billy stans excusing his actions just ruins this take for me, and it also just feels like a further insult on Max and Lucas's characters.

Also the Hargrove stans are by far the most unnecessarily aggressive, toxic, and illogical, and I've seen the twitter Steve vs Jonathan discourse.