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2ndblogg · 3 years

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Hey! Just read your hot take on novel!wangxian and I absolutely agree. I'm gonna have to say here that I believe it boils down to the fetishization of homosexual men in a lot of the fandom culture that surrounds mlm shipping, as you said it's a space for a lot of women to experiment with their desires and whatnot, but I think therein lies the breaking points between reading novel!wangxian as a good, healthy relationship vs. reading it as a very flawed and toxic one. As an LGBT person, reading the way the author dealt with their relationship made me extremely uncomfortable, it just really feels like something that is written by someone who is more invested in using her queer characters for satisfying her and her reader's own pleasure than a well-built, strong relationship between two characters. Not to take away from the novel in some other aspects, I believe that novel!wwx is a much better, much more nuanced character than what he is in cql, but when it comes to wangxian, I think the intentions are very different for each of them. To each their own, I guess, but I do find it very troubling that some people in the fandom have a really hard time admitting that novel wangxian is not even remotely healthy.

Absolutely.

And can I just say how glad it makes me to see that not everyone is praising this book for it’s lgbt representation...

But I guess that’s also why I just occasionally feel the need to scream my frustrations into the void or try to make sense of the novel.

And why I try to be understanding and accepting of people’s opinion of the novel and not take it ‘personally’ (in the sense of sitting there thinking “holy shit this is how they view ME, this is what they think of ME” etc).

I was in fandoms back when they were really a place dominated by straight (homophobic) women and realism or lgbt representation wasn’t on anyone’s mind (and the occasional dude butting in to say that’s not how sex works or bottoming is experienced was ignored or told to get out). I experienced this change to fandoms being more of a lgbt space, of people becoming aware that media can shape your views of groups of people, of people becoming aware of their fetishizing of fictional gays vs. their prejudice against real life lgbt people etc.

And tbh MXTX just writes like one of those, she writes wangxian like everyone wrote their gay relationships around 2005 and earlier; clear power imbalance, clear roles and attributes that are divided into ‘manly’ and ‘feminine’, certain physical attributes (like the female self insert character aka the bottom being pretty and slight and weaker and shorter), men/the penetrating partner can’t really be raped so anything the woman/bottom tries isn’t really ‘bad’, the male love interest is forceful and self centered but ONLY because he’s so in love and since he’s emotionally stunted he has to express that through sex, men/tops NEED sex and it’s rude/mean to deny them that, the girl/bottom isn’t THAT horny or in charge of their own sexuality but wants to please their partner and what they really get out of it is the emotional aspect, decisions need to be made for them because the dude/top just knows better, the girl/bottom is childish and flirty and the guy/top suffers through it until he finally snaps and shows the girl/bottom who'sboss etc etc. (honestly homophobia and misogyny is so tightly knit in this kind of fiction, if it wasn’t so frustrating it would be very interesting).

Tbh I disagree with novel!wwx being more nuanced (despite a lot of ppl whose opinions I really respect also feeling this way), because I simply cannot seperate him from the wangxian relationship. All I see are tropes and stereotypes applied to make him ‘work’ in the context of the wangxian relationship instead of an actual personality...

To me, in CQL WWX is clearly the main character and you love his interactions with LWJ and want more of them and value them, wheras in the novel most of the time WWX plays second fiddle even when a scene should technically be about him and LWJ’s presence is incredibly suffocating, because he’s always being controlling or at the very least influencing WWX.

I also don’t feel like WWX has much of a character arc/growth. We’re essentially told he had one but the only thing that really actually changes is him hating himself a bit more and letting LWJ smash..., and I guess: he’s less independent than ever, he’s more isolated that ever...

I’ve called novel!wangxian a relationship between an abuser and his victim, because you can find evidence of that in the text. Not because I think the author wanted to portray an unhealthy gay relationship. Like you said, she was fetishizing and wrote for a similar crowd. But to me that ‘realization’ helped...I still don’t see how people can call it a masterpiece but I can at least understand hyping something you like up...

And like, badly written gay relationship or not; gay/straight,man/women, I see how people can find it hot. Exploring your sexuality through fictional characters isn’t necessarily a strictly straight girl phenomena. I probably have read fic that was exactly like this, I can’t judge anyone for it. But no one prints out the last PWP they read and goes, “this is ideal lgbt representation and nothing will ever be this good, the fact that it includes rape makes it so realistic” like????

(Is that part or an effect of the woke and purety culture? you can’t say ‘i like this book but it has flaws’ or ‘i’ve enjoyed this but it’s not up the feminism or lgbt acceptance that i preach/live’ so you have to pretend it’s flawless?)

And like, I do think novel!wangxian is a nightmare when it comes to lgbt representation and I do believe this is largely due to a cishet woman writing about gay men and fetishizing them (the fact that a lot of peoples arguments why novel!wangxian ‘is better’ boils down to ‘there’s kissing and sex’ is also pretty telling). And I am frightend and worried by some peoples response to it.

But is it really fair to see it as just that? It’s a problem sure, but that same thing happens in straight media (which I am admittedly not well versed in). Stephanie Meyer didn’t set out to write Edward Cullen to be a creep and non of the teenage girls that went crazy over him viewed it as such...Reylo fans (aside from some of them proclaiming Finn to be the real villain and saying it’s racist and misogynistic to not find Kylo Ren hot) found a way to view him threatening her as romantic and sexy, Loki fans that didn’t ship him with Thor usually fell into the camp of “he would be a perfect boyfriend” or “what if this OFC was his slave and he raped her everyday <3″... like ignoring/glorifying/romanticizing behaviours or exploring what kinks you might have through the safety of fictional characters and fictional settings isn’t JUST happening when it comes to ‘the gays’...

And not just specifically in fandom spaces either, a lot of ‘romantic’ movies include inappropriate touching, the boy/guy knowing better than the girl what she wants etc. And I absolutely do believe that that’s something that normalized these things for a lot of young girls and guys (I don’t want to get into this too much, I’ve really seen a change in the past few years, but before that it was pretty common for young boys to believe they need to keep pursuing and pressuring a girl that has said no, girls truly thought boys could die of blue balls, girls thought it was their duty as good girlfriends to let their boyfriends fuck them even when they weren’t in the mood, that they couldn’t talk about what they want in bed or what they don’t find enjoyable because ‘sex is for boys and girls get a relationship in exchange’ etc.).

And in much the same way movies have only relatively recently begun being called out for that, it’s also still pretty recently that they’re being called out for having their one queer coded character be a pedophile and a murder or whatever...Like, society as a whole becoming aware of these issues.

But do authors that publish their work with a specific target audience in mind have a responsibility to think about the effect it might have on them? (And I can already hear loud screams of ‘no way, it’s not your fault if your audience isn’t smart enough to understand that this bad thing is bad’, but I actually do believe in a way they do. That doesn’t mean you can’t or shouldn’t write whatever you want, just maybe take a look at HOW you bring your point across. (We do KNOW people are influenced by what propaganda they’re consistantly fed. I mean, you wouldn’t write a pro-drugs childrens book...) )

What if the author isn’t aware of their bias and prejudices? Or their target audience isn’t their actual audience?

And do we, society and media, judge female and male authors differently when it comes to romance and sex in fiction? (The answer is yes btw) But also, where do we draw the line at calling something ‘badly written’ and calling it toxic? Can it be both? As I’ve said before, a lot of people claim that only the physical intimacy scenes of novel!wangxian are bad, because they’re badly written and OOC, some say the book as amazingly written and only the wangxian relationship is bad because the author doesn’t know how to write gay men. In my ‘hot take’ I essentially said that’s not necessarily bad writing so much as it’s simply an (okay, unintentional) toxic relationship. And would this relationship still come across as toxic (or badly written, whichever you want) if we didn’t know the author to be a cishet woman? Or if a gay man had written it? (my personal, eloquent answer for this is: yes, but differently.)

Which was really all just a rambly way to get to my point of: it’s not just fetishizing of gay men, it’s also the homophobia and self-inserting in a safe situation.

You can literally replace WWX in the novel with a female character and it wouldn’t change a thing. The author takes such an effort into building up this power imbalance in every aspect of their life that if WWX were a heroine nothing would change in this (sexist/ancient society) setting.

(And clearly this is something that appeals to people if you look at the amount of female!WWX fics...)

Not even the sex scenes. There are maybe two allusions in all of them combined that WWX might also have a dick but like, you can’t be sure and it sure as hell doesn’t need stimulation.

(and again, that could be written as a kink...but it’s just not.)

CQL is a gay love story. MDZS at it’s core is none of that.

But I also very much agree with your ‘to each their own’, like here I am criticizing and trying to find explanations and whatever, but at the end of the day it doesn’t matter why someone might like (or write) a book like this, I vastly prefer CQL!wangxian but people have their own reasons for not doing so.

The ‘problem’ really only lies in, as you said, people not being able to accept that it’s not a healthy relationship. Or claiming it to be perfect lgbt rep.

And because my brain can’t shut up today:

I also can’t stop thinking that the way some people ‘glorify’ the book as due to their age and ‘inexperience’.

When I was a pretty young kid and got into fanfiction, there was nothing but completely OOC!whump to be found in the first two fandoms I was in. And I loved it. It was YEARS later that I thought I might like to read something with the characters being...in character. What I’m trying to say, in different stages and phases of your life you might enjoy different things, for different reasons...and obviously, in that moment, you won’t think about ‘what appeals to me here/should this appeal to me/etc’.

I don’t mean inexperience as ‘sexual inexperience’ here, though of course that could be part of it, but also like, inexperience with this genre (is this the first book like this you read, or did you just read 50 in a row that all had the same unhealthy vibes?), with lgbt people and issues (do you know any lgbt people or is your only image of them either the cute boy you can’t have and don’t want to see with another girl or grown men in full kink gear in front of children during CSD? and also: do you think ‘i like this’ and that’s the end of it or do you notice how many people idolize this objectively unhealthy relationship and won’t allow critique on it...)

I...just wanted to say thanks really.

I just can’t stop rambling apparently and I know I mostly just repeated what you said or what I already said but in longer... I just really do feel very strongly about novel!wangxian and the perception of them and have actually at times felt very personally...worried/affected, by people’s acceptance and love of them and I just... have to try and make sense of it...

#i'll be honest rambling like this is very therapeutic and I'm glad some of you read the last one and send asks and agreed #and it's why i'll (try to) put this in the tags too...i like discussions but seeing ppl NOT going 'it's true love/perfect rep' love that #mdzs #mdzs meta #mxtx critical #i guess

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ahahahahaderp · 7 years

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HataJitsu & KamiMiyo Toku Headcanons ✩꒳✩

(￣ω￣)that no one asked for but I can’t stop thinking about it okkkk 💦💦💦💦

can you taste my undying thirst and bias for kamimiyo because I am shameless (￣ω￣;) no actually, I’m Mimi

Aaaaaand tokusatsu or 特撮 for those who don’t know are J-dramas and/or films that use lots of special effects ^o^ Godzilla, Garo, Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Ultraman etc. are just some examples~!

I just think that Kaminaga and Hatano would like really be into tokusatsu series and would debate which ones are better, best suits, fight scenes, etc etc and Miyoshi and Jitsui would just be forced to put up with their embarrassing boyfriends... but low-key enjoying it too wwwwwwww

...

and yes, Kaminaga and Hatano would totally do the poses when they go to exhibitions and fanboy so hard at the great details!! (honestly, same tho >w<)

Also thanks @dollofdeath for indulging me (*´ω｀)o ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

HataJitsu

Jitsui openly likes Toku too (to a certain degree) and will watch it with Hatano kinda often

It's cute because Hatano gets all excited and Jitsui is just LOL, finding him sooo cute and precious

Hatano naturally hates being teased and called a kid, but Jitsui can’t help but tease him more for being such an adorable fanboy (*ﾉωﾉ)ｷｬｰ like okk Hatano, ILY but you ARE a kid sometimes and it’s so freaking cute

Not to mention how pure some of these shows are omfg and the fact that some of the catch phrases are so cheesy and Hatano enjoys them so much and get so into it, makes Jitsui wanna bully protect him more

Because the real hero isn’t the next rider or super sentai, but the stupid boyfriend beside him（˶′◡‵˶）

Though, it’s not all sunshine and rainbows with these heroes and Jitsui does find himself honestly liking the intriguing plot lines that can surprisingly be deep and insightful

Jitsui looks forward to Hatano’s reactions but really, it’s vice-versa because a lot of the time Hatano’s already seen these episodes but he just wants Jitsui to enjoy it too

But then they just keep sneaking glances at each other’s reaction instead of watching wwww

Plus Hatano gets really hyped during the fight scenes and is just always in awe and Jitsui’s starting to wonder like ohhh is this why Hatano took all these martial arts classes (つ∀<●)ﾟ💦 💦 💦

Hatano sometimes thinks that he could totally be one of the suit actors if not for his height and kinda gets really down about it but Jitsui would just be like “I don’t suppose I’d need special effects to draw fear into people when it’s all natural, so why would you need special effects to suit up and be my hero?” (>////////////<)

Hatano passed out from a fever that night and Jitsui couldn’t take Hatano being everyone’s hero when he should just be his (✿´ ꒳ ` )

But when they do watch the new episodes together, as much as Jitsui does admit to liking it, they don’t hold a candle to Hatano’s reactions at the suits and everything

Jitsui enjoys Hatano’s stupid smile and overblown excitement the most because Hatano seems low-key troubled sometimes and doesn’t say much because he’s unsure really of why he’s feeling dubious, but when he watches toku, he like forgets all that so secretly, Jitsui loves his addiction so much

And Hatano somehow got Jitsui to start drawing toku art and is just MY BOYFRIEND IS SO AMAZING, HE SCARES ME (wait..he always does)

Random but I think Jitsui would probably enjoy KR Amazons the most and would lol during horror films and Hatano is just......I'm glad he likes me...I think. (￣ω￣;)

KamiMiyo

Of course, Kaminaga has to drag (and beg and whine for) Miyo to actually consider watching Toku shows and once they start watching, it’s normal for them to marathon shows and de-stress with each other since Miyo wants to see what’s gotten Kaminaga so excited lately and because he’s so cuteeee (*´∀`*)えへへ

Miyo thinks that the shows aren’t half bad and is at the very least intrigued by the whole idea of it, and also because Kaminaga is so pure and adorable for watching these kind of bubbly shows, it’s almost funny? Even when they’re not always bubbly and kinda deep. He just likes seeing Kaminaga be really happy *:･(*/////∇/////*)･:*:･

Plus, the chance to tease Kaminaga will never not be amazing wwwww

but Miyo low-key thinking omg the detail on these suits are so amazing and the choreograph is just so grea---I mean...it's passable, naturally. That's why it has a following and all and what no, Kaminaga...I’m just taking this photo for ref ok...? 💦 💦 💦

and yes of course they go to Kamen Rider the Diner and Miyoshi just...why am I here...like sure, Miyo’s a foodie and all but novelty food almost always tastes the same.

Though, that’s where Kaminaga comes in and says something about how the details they put into creating these silly aesthetics for the food based on quirks from the show makes it really fun to eat! Not to mention that a lot of those times were when he was watching toku with Miyo and that makes all the difference---it’s definitely not as enjoyable if he’s not with Miyo because somehow Miyo makes Toku even better and he just treasures Toku more because of that and I’m cry (´；ω；`)

and god, Kaminaga can you not stare at Miyo like tht because he’s trying to eat here without swooning （*/∇＼*）

Miyo’s just.......I am not getting flustered over some below average novelty food because of you (≧ヘ≦　) he totally is though wwwwww

and it makes it even worse because Kaminaga’s charms always has that effect on Miyo and Miyo is just...stop taking pictures and eat your weeb food

But also LOL Kaminaga is such a dumb dork and getting excited over the cafe merch or interior and how it reminds him of this and that scene and Miyoshi just can’t help but wanna treasure this stupid pure sunshine even more >w<

Ohhh and and and Kaminaga totally fanboying about toku with these total strangers and Miyo just totally can’t stand it and just cosplays as Kaminaga’s fave to get his attention

though kaminaga is totally flustered at this, he won’t hug Miyo and barely even kiss him because the details of his suit are so amazing and Miyoshi’s just I hate that you’re so cute （˶′◡‵˶） but seriously, look at me b*tch

Though, what if instead Miyo was like a closet tokusatsu fan because he thinks liking something so childish totally contrasts with his ummm supposedly "cool" image but then again he's dating Kaminaga lololol and he finds the heroes pretty cool lolololl idk (I;m same miyoshi saaaaame) (∩ﾟ∀｀∩)ｷｬ―!!!!

Kaminaga finding out and at first like LOLOLOLOLOL I can't believe I've known you for this long and you managed to keep it from me; that is so cute (and super happy that he’s the only one who knows about Miyo’s addiction) TwT

Kaminaga's not an avid fan but he does enjoy it time to time from the stuff he's seen and finds it pretty cool and Miyo totally getting excited talking about toku and Kaminaga's like dying because that is freaking cuteeeee

Miyo secretly collects the figures LOL and keeps them hidden even away from Kaminaga ( ˃̣̣̥ω˂̣̣̥ )

Also okkk so when Jitsui goes to a doujin event to sell his manga or doujins perhaps, of course, the others come to support him!

Naturally Hatano is there and lol probably buys manga and doujins, artbooks, merch (I feel like he'd be into manga and stuff a lot, but not crazy but does enjoy it)

Miyoshi comes too, of course, but can't find Kaminaga anywhere is just ...sort of lonely but you know, he's here to support Jitsui and make fun of Hatano and w o w that is some intense cosplay right there huhhh is that his fave rider in a get up that looks almost identical to the exact same suit made for the show and omg his belt is so unreal and every detail makes him feel like this is some crazy dream because this cosplayer is practically oozing this unrivaled charisma and charm ≧(´▽｀)≦

and it’s probably his unhindered narcissism, but he can’t help but feel that this cosplayer is looking at him (though, low-key freaking out because oh no, can all toku fans tell who other toku fans are because he is sooo sCREWED)

miyo's like almost sweating but gosh there's so many ppl and thank you god if you're out there because Miyoshi always has his favourite handkerchief to look extra pristine and wipe away non-existent sweat, of course (Gods don’t sweat) (ノ*゜▽゜*)

and ugh where are you Kaminaga because Kaminaga needs to see this too

and and Miyo wants to... scold him as well for being this late and not answering all his messages

Secretly, however, Miyo won’t mind if Kaminaga makes fun of him but naturally Kaminaga won't...much because Kaminaga thinks Miyo low-key fanboying is just as cute as affectionate drunk miyo ೭੧(❛▿❛✿)੭೨

The people are still crowding around this amazing cosplayer but now that Miyo’s kinda close, he can totally sneak a pic while no one's looking at him because oh god no one can find out (even if Kaminaga did yikes, but it’s ok because it’s Kaminaga)

For once, he feels nearly unworthy to be near this cosplayer that is somehow a person and why isn't Kaminaga answering his phone

Nvm Kaminaga finally picked up and---huhhhhh why does the cosplayer have Kaminaga's phone and is...w-waving? at him no less?

Once the helmet comes off, Miyo can barely even register that it’s Kaminaga and is totally blushing because it’s so freaking hot (actually, Miyo, there’s quite a bit of AC buuut) and Kaminaga is so freaking hot and no, he doesn’t mean just because of the material of the cosplay

Finally when Miyo gets close enough, he’s too flustered to say much and Kaminaga’s just adoring the cuteness exuding Miyo right now

for the first time, Miyoshi’s really feeling insanely shy right now and he’s known Kaminaga for practically forever and Miyo even has the gall to timidly ask if he can touch his suit because it’s so amazing

Of course, Kaminaga isn’t so foolish as to not tease Miyo at this when Miyo softly grazes the suit and is still in complete awe at the precision and detail because yes, Kaminaga has always been amazingly skilled and Miyo is so so lucky to have this man as his boyfriend ｡(〃ω〃)ﾟ.+:｡♪

Miyo doesn’t even realize how shy he’s become and is just cautiously raising his phone and is starts murmuring almost

“So...is it ok if we take a selfie together.........” like he’s now Kaminaga’s fanboy and Kaminaga is so startled and is also blushing frantically (because of the “heat” righttt boyyyys 👀👀👀👀👀👀👀👀)

but Kaminaga’s just kisses him instead and is just “A kiss is a much more meaningful memorabilia, isn’t it?” and even winks for added measure and gosh, Miyo knows his little handkerchief can’t save him now from looking like a total tomato (because oh yes, the heat is oh so vindictive of him)

“If it’s only for me, I suppose it is.”

THE END wooo fuwa fuwa fluffssssss

Welp...that was way longer than I intended (((0へ0)💦💦💦💦💦💦💦💦 cries I kinda wanna write that as a fanfic but idkkkk heehee I just think the whole cliche scenario works for them and is totally adorable TwT If anyone actually read this til the end, thank you for putting up with my eternally thirsty Kamimiyo rambles (〃 ω 〃) and have a very lovely day and evening because you deserve both, even if you can only have one or the other (￣ω￣)

#joker game #kamimiyo #hatajitsu #lots of Kamimiyo rambles #I should be sorry #but I'm really not wwwwwwww #If last year I was one foot into toku hell #now I'm definitely completely in toku hell 5ever hngsss #and Kamimiyo hell too bubkjbjkbkjb

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