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thinkingisadangerouspastime · 3 years

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So, this may sound weird, since I don't ship ZK, but I think the reason some dislike EIP is because they realize it was the first part of a busted enemies-to-lovers arc. EIP was part one, where Zuko and Katara see how others see them, and it weirds them out. Yet, Zuko insisted on sitting next to Katara and Katara pushes Aang away, suggesting there might be something there that they don't want to acknowledge. (1/3)

The first part of the finale was Part 2, where June reiterates the "Hey you're with your gf again!" Zuko and Katara deny it, but there likely should have been an undercurrent of 'Why do people think we're together? Do we act like it? Should we be? S/he is kind of cute.' During this time, Zuko defers to Katara and despite Toph likely being more helpful, asks Katara to be the one to take down Azula with him. (2/3)

Last part of the finale should have been the money shot, Zuko taking lightning for Katara, and in a parallel to CoD, Katara healing him. Dante Basco is right in that there probably should have been a kiss at that moment and the end scene of the gang at the Jasmine Dragon with Zuko and Katara shyly proclaiming their interest in each other. (3/4, sorry I have one more)

Again, ZK is not my ship, but EIP seemed to set up a ZK endgame that jumped the tracks at the end. By all the "rules" of a good narrative, Zuko and Katara should have ended up together, otherwise EIP should never have been countenanced or storyboarded. Full disclosure that I'm not a huge Kataang fan either, but Kataang was done a disservice by having EIP exist. It either should not have ever gotten written, or the ZK enemies-to-lovers arc should have been concluded. (end)

Disclaimer: I don’t care if someone ships Zvtara. Never have, never will. If the takeaway you (the general you, not anon specifically lol) get from this post is that Zvtara is “bad,” then I’m going to assume you didn’t actually read anything I wrote, because that is the farthest thing from my point here. Also, this post is strictly my personal response to these asks. I don’t expect everyone to read this and be like “YEAH” lmao. I am sure some people have different opinions, and that is a-okay!

In short, I think we will have to agree to disagree, anon.

Do some people consider EIP the beginning of a busted enemies-to-lovers arc? Of course they do, they’re “rabid zkers” who wear Zvtara shipping goggles 24/7 lmao. EIP couldn’t have been the beginning of an E-L arc because such an arc was never in the cards for them in the first place! Katara forgave Zuko in the previous episode. Trying to cram a romantic relationship into five episodes after months of hatred between Zuko and Katara would have been awful writing (and thus probably would have been a decision mercilessly criticized until the end of time, lmao). So it’s honestly better that Zvtara gets to spread its wings in fanon instead (much less pressure)! Also, realistically speaking, Katara and Zuko probably still had so many issues to work through in their friendship. Like yes, she forgave him and recognized he was trying to do better, but that doesn’t erase what Zuko has done to her and her friends. There is still plenty of forward progress they need to make before romance can even be considered between them. If that makes sense?

Also, let’s be real: EIP and bit with June afterwards were 100% ship bait. Just an attempt to add to the “drama” of who Katara would end up. A technique only effective while it was airing, for the record, because if you watch the show straight through, it becomes glaringly obvious that Zuko and Katara’s relationship - while gorgeous - was always meant to stay strictly platonic within the canon timeline.

Anyways. I’ll try to break down your ask one piece at a time!

“Zuko and Katara see how others see them, and it weirds them out”

Yes, they are definitely weirded out! The transcript says, “Zuko and Katara inch away from each other, slightly uncomfortable.” Which is just a longer way of describing that they were weirded out by the depiction of their relationship in EIP, lol. However, the play is not how others see them. The play is the Fire Nation’s imperialist propaganda, meant to demean the entire Gaang. I talk about in specifics how the entire Gaang is belittled here, but this is the key stuff I noted about Zuko and Katara:

it’s important to situate that and more importantly situate eip zuko and katara’s relationship within the context of the show. the fire nation is an imperialist country. the southern water tribe has suffered heavily beneath them. we know from “the headband” that fire nation individuals are fed pro-imperialistic propaganda from birth; that combined with zuko and azula’s degrading comment of “peasant” towards katara demonstrate very clearly how the fire nation views every other nation - put simply, they are superior and everyone else is inferior. that attitude is therefore reflected in the eip play:

- katara, an indigenous woman, is highly sexualized and portrayed as overly dramatic and tearful, because the fire nation objectifies women not of their own people and views them as less intelligent and less emotionally stable

- she is thus paired as having a “romance” with zuko in eip because naturally, via fire nation logic, zuko would be able to “score” an “easy” woman of one of the water tribes

- furthermore, the eip “romance” between zuko and katara emphasizes zuko’s position as a traitor to the fire nation; the implication is that as a traitor, he’d only be able to achieve a relationship with a “lesser” woman, e.g. a woman not of the fire nation

That is not how other people truly view Zuko and Katara’s relationship. That is how the Fire Nation depicts their relationship in order to degrade and dehumanize Zuko and Katara. To misinterpret that as “evidence” that Zuko and Katara should have been together romantically is… disturbing, in my opinion. (I really try to stay far away from zkers who use EIP as “proof” of supposed Zvtara interest in each other like honey that is imperialist propaganda please don’t 😭).

If you want to talk about how other people actually view Zuko and Katara’s relationship, look at the Gaang, who were around them most of all! They never tease the possibility of romance between their friends. Why? Because within canon, there wasn’t one. Simple!

“Zuko insisted on sitting next to Katara”

Nope! This is all the transcript says: “Zuko [Removing his hood.] Just sit next to me. What’s the big deal?” He doesn’t even mention Katara! Zuko is literally just like I’m already sitting. Why do I need to move? lmfao. It’s no thoughts head empty for our favorite firebender 😂

“Katara pushes Aang away”

I’m assuming this about the kiss, which I’m going to make a post about in the future because I am TIRED of the tomfoolery. Anyways, I’ll keep this brief - yes, she does push him away. She does not deny that she likes him. For Katara, the issue is the timing: “This isn’t the right time.” Both Katara and Aang know they like each other, plain and simple (which is why Aang doesn’t ask if he returns her feelings - he asks if they’d be together, because he knows their feelings are mutual). Katara pushes Aang away because, as she says, they’re in the middle of a war. She’s already seen Aang die once. He might die again. She doesn’t want that, of course, but it’s a reality Katara is forced to consider.

Anyways, her decision has nothing to do with Zuko. Lol.

“June reiterates the ‘Hey you’re with your gf again!’ Zuko and Katara deny it, but there likely should have been an undercurrent of ‘Why do people think we're together? Do we act like it? Should we be? S/he is kind of cute.’”

June’s assumption - especially because it is a repeat of a gag from earlier in the series, when it is incredibly concerning to assume a Fire Nation citizen would be with someone of the Water Tribes because of the war and its consequences - is comic relief. Not even good comic relief, lmao, because of the horrific implications I just mentioned that come with it, but it’s supposed to be comedy. There was no need of any “Zvtara” undercurrents there because a) Katara and Zuko had never expressed romantic interest in each other in the past, b) it wouldn’t track with the show’s narrative of Katara as Zuko’s surrogate sibling because of her position as Azula’s primary foil, and c) it just doesn’t make sense in general. Katara likes Aang. Zuko likes Mai. There was never a love triangle there, plain and simple. Fandom invented it.

And again, if you want to talk about how people actually see Zuko and Katara, don’t look at June, who has never had a proper conversation with either of them. As I said, the Gaang is a much better example, since they’re with the two 24/7. If they never tease Zuko and Katara about romance, why should we trust this random lady who doesn’t even know them?

“During this time, Zuko defers to Katara and despite Toph likely being more helpful, asks Katara to be the one to take down Azula with him.”

As I mentioned, Katara is Azula’s primary foil, so from a literary perspective she absolutely needed to be the one to take her down. Zuko needed to face Azula, but taking her down - again, from a literary pov - was always meant to be the end of Katara’s journey (she was the only person besides Aang who was ever a match for Azula, after all, as we see in CoD). Also, how would Toph be more helpful?? Not saying you’re wrong, btw, I just don’t understand what you mean. If I was Zuko, I also would have brought the waterbender that I’d already witnessed almost take down my sister already 😂. But even if Toph would have been more helpful, sometimes practicality must be sacrificed for a fulfilling narrative arc, lol!

“Last part of the finale should have been the money shot, Zuko taking lightning for Katara, and in a parallel to CoD, Katara healing him.”

Honestly, anon, this part of your ask baffles me 😂 I totally understand why rabid zkers might make this argument, but taking into account the rest of the show… It just doesn’t make sense? It’s been talked about a hundred times, but Zuko taking lightning out of romantic interest would ruin his redemption arc, regardless of if it was Katara or Aang or Sokka or anyone in the Gaang that he was taking it for, so that should be the end of discussion, full stop. I’ve talked about this issue here and here before, and someone else does a great job breaking it down in this post, too. But seriously. Zuko having romantic interest for anyone in the Gaang would ruin!! His!! Entire!! Arc!! I hate when people don’t understand that 😭 Zuko had to learn selflessness, to learn how to put others before himself, and to unlearn the imperialist rhetoric he’d been indoctrinated with from birth. Romantic interest during canon for Katara, Sokka, Aang, whomever, I don’t care, completely disregards all of his growth of breaking away from the Fire Nation. Plain and simple.

“Dante Basco is right in that there probably should have been a kiss at that moment and the end scene of the gang at the Jasmine Dragon with Zuko and Katara shyly proclaiming their interest in each other.”

I learned in a discord I’m in that Dante Basco apparently hadn’t seen the whole show until this year lmao. He didn’t know what energybending was nor did he know A:TLA ended with a Kataang kiss. Take that with a grain of salt, of course (you can watch the livestream this is revealed in here, and it was also mentioned in the recent StageIt A:TLA reunion), but I think it’s safe to conclude Dante Basco can be treated like any other Zvtara shipper. He likes the ship, which is totally cool, but he is not one of the writers, so his opinion meant naught in constructing the canon narrative.

ANYWAYS. My point is why would Zuko and Katara proclaim interest in each other if such interest would have to be crammed into five measly episodes?? Especially when four of those episodes were the finale?? That is awful writing, of course the A:TLA writers wouldn’t do that, lmao! They’d built up Kataang and Maiko already. Why scrap it and needlessly rush a romance from an excellent - and, important to note, a newly established - platonic bond? Nah.

“EIP seemed to set up a ZK endgame that jumped the tracks at the end. By all the ‘rules’ of a good narrative, Zuko and Katara should have ended up together”

Nope. Idk what rules people have been teaching you, anon, but they were lying!! You deserve better than people who would lie to you like that 😤. But yeah, narratively speaking, Katara and Zuko getting together would have made no sense. It would have undermined Zuko’s and Katara’s arcs, it would have completely disregarded Katara’s established feelings for Aang and Zuko’s for Mai, and again, it would have been totally rushed. Who wants that?? Normal people don’t, lmao. This might be hard to believe considering I occasionally rag about BNF zkers, but I actually have several friends who are Zvtara shippers! They agree that canon Zvtara would have made no sense, and that it’s better to play out a potential Zvtara dynamic in post-A:TLA fanon. I swear, it is only the rabid shippers who think Zvtara should have been canon, and trust me when I say no one should want to associate with them, lmao.

(And again, as I touched upon earlier, Zuko and Katara’s canon narrative relationship was surrogate siblings because of Katara’s position as Azula’s primary foil. The show wrapped their arc up perfectly! With a lovely bow and all. So no complaints from me!)

“otherwise EIP should never have been countenanced or storyboarded. Full disclosure that I’m not a huge Kataang fan either, but Kataang was done a disservice by having EIP exist”

What EIP did right:

- accurate (and horrifying) depiction of pro-imperialist propaganda

- recap of previous seasons

- a lesson on consent (Aang kisses Katara, it is depicted as wrong, and Aang reacts appropriately by admonishing himself and by giving Katara space afterwards. like, people call Aang an incel/entitled/whatever, BUT HE HAD THE PERFECT REACTION?? he literally backed off and never pressured her again. i would have killed for the guy who kept getting in my personal space during my junior year to have backed off when i told him to. spoiler alert: he didn’t)

- hit some good humor beats

What EIP did poorly:

- honestly it’s not very interesting just based on watching it (deconstructing it as propaganda gives it better depth), but that’s to be expected from filler

- stupid shipping drama

- not having an additional conversation/explicit apology between Aang and Katara

HOWEVER. This final point is actually very subjective. For one, A:TLA has a clear trend of not showing apologies on screen. Ex.: Katara doesn’t apologize to Sokka for what she said about their mother, Zuko doesn’t apologize for anything he did to the Gaang, Song, or really anyone (closest we get is “Hello, Zuko here” lmao), Ty Lee and Mai don’t apologize for putting the Kyoshi warriors in jail, etc. etc. So while an explicit apology would have been great, the lack of one admittedly tracks with the show’s pre-established standards. And two, while I of course would love a conversation between Aang and Katara (that’s literally MORE KATAANG. why would I refuse 😂), it isn’t… necessary, to be frank. Aang’s mistake is treated as such - kissing Katara was wrong and he should never have done that. Like I said, Aang acknowledges this error and gives Katara space afterwards. Thus, it is Katara who chooses to be with him when the war is over. She respects the time he gave her to come to a conclusion, and the choice she makes is that she loves him despite his poorly-timed kiss (I mean, she forgave Zuko for being complicit in Aang’s death. Katara is clearly a very forgiving person!). So like,, it gets to a point where if someone doesn’t recognize that, they’re probably the kind of weirdo who labels anything they don’t understand in a story as a plothole, lmao.

All of this is to say that EIP wasn’t a disservice to Kataang. It certainly could have been better, of course, and the kiss was obviously only put in to hype up drama (“will they, won’t they” blah blah blah), but overall it handled consent well for a kid’s show.

“It either should not have ever gotten written, or the ZK enemies-to-lovers arc should have been concluded.”

On the whole, EIP is absolutely an unnecessary episode, yeah. It was just a recap before the finale. The only important thing is its accurate depiction of pro-imperialist propaganda, but most people’s minds don’t immediately go to that, I’ll admit lmao 😂. And as I’ve already said, there was no Zvtara E-L arc - fandom completely made that up. Which is totally fine! That’s the point of transformative works. But they are still fanon. Plain and simple.

TL;DR - Zvtara was never in the cards for A:TLA. I wish rabid zkers would stop pretending it was and have fun in the sandbox like the rest of us 😭

And for the record, anon, you absolutely, 100% do not have to be convinced by any of this! It’s just my own, personal thoughts on the whole dealio. No worries either way!! 💛

#emphasis on my use of rabid zker. if you know you don't fall into that category then it's obviously not about you lol #(general you. not anon specifically)#amy answers #anon #amy analyzes

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saranel · 7 years

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My question is not entirely bleach related. So don't know if you'll answer. Well..which pairing of the novel, 'pride and Prejudice' do you like out of the main 4 pairings? If so, do you find similarities between those pairings and bleach ones?

Ooohhhh gosh, it’s been over a decade since I read the book, anon, so you’ll have to forgive me if my memory of events is somewhat skewed by the movie/TV adaptations (what do you mean Darcy doesn’t take a dip in the lake at Pemberley? IS THIS NOT CANON???). I’mma tag my pal and Pride and Prejudice expert @kisukke to correct me if there’s anything I got wrong.

First off, I’m not sure which four pairs you’re referring to? Elizabeth and Darcy, Jane and Bingley are the obvious ones, but aside from those two pairs, I don’t know which other two I’d classify as ‘main.’ There’s Charlotte and Mr. Collins, Lydia and Wickham and then maybe the Gardiners and the Bennets themselves? Oh and Louisa and Mr. Hurst, I guess. Unless of course you’re talking about potential pairs like Elizabeth & Collins andElizabeth & Wickham xD

At any rate, with the exception of Elizabeth and Masaki, I can’t really say I find many similarities on a character level. Maybe Ryūken and his mom with Darcy and Lady Catherine, but not a perfect comparison as in this case Ryūken and Masaki aren’t meant to end up together. Still, the spirit of the novel, i.e. marrying for the right reasons, does apply greatly to many of the past canon and some of the implied pairs.

(more under the cut)

Because this is basically one of the main themes of Pride and Prejudice, isn’t it? To showcase the difference between the relationships built on love and respect, and the forced ones that resulted from impulse/convenience/social pressure etc. Which, of course, isn’t such a common issue with modern marriages (at least not in the same way; marrying for the wrong reasons is still very much a thing), but was a revolutionary concept for Austen’s time, when women didn’t have much of a choice. Take Charlotte, for example, whose marriage we do get to see in action, but we cannot really fault her for following the status quo of the time.

Elizabeth took a great gamble when refusing to marry Mr. Collins, and we see how her mother uses the family’s future to pressure her into accepting, but as the heroine, it makes sense that she’s the one who rebels against this system and ends up not only marrying a man she loves, but also affecting the circumstances so Jane would also marry for love. In that sense, Masaki has the same role in the EBTR story; by making her own choice and refusing to marry Ryūken, whether knowingly or not, she grants him the freedom to marry the one he loves as well.

There are three more couples I can think of that fit a similar motif, though they don’t make for quite the same parallel. There’s Byakuya, of course, who bucks tradition and marries Hisana. There’s Renji, who buries his feelings when Rukia becomes nobility so as not to stand in her way, and though this is mostly a headcanon, anyone who reads my blog consistently knows that I believe this is more or less what happened with Kisuke and Yoruichi. Most signs point to him being either a commoner or a noble of far lower clout, so whether they carried a romance in secret for years or got together shortly before/after their exile, Yoruichi makes a clear choice in abandoning all titles and luxuries (not to mention friends and family) to be with him. Whether you read that as platonic or romantic, the end result is the same: Yoruichi went against tradition and the status quo when it posed a serious detriment to her own happiness.

The big difference between Bleach and P&P is that we don’t see any unhappy marriages in action, like the Bennets or Charlotte and Mr. Collins, to create the juxtaposition.

Some people may make a case for Ryūken and Katagiri ending up together out of convenience, but I think their relationship has been greatly misinterpreted. For one thing, when Isshin tells Ichigo that Ryūken let Masaki go post-graduation as a way to make a clean break from his own feelings, I’m not really buying it? I do believe Ryūken had some feelings for her, but they were mostly born out of an effort to make the best of a situation he wasn’t happy with but felt he had to endure.

Masaki was a lovely girl, so I can’t really fault him for trying to make it work; as a member of a slowly dying ‘race,’ Ryūken carried the immense burden of being the head of a prominent, pureblooded clan that was expected to further the line. But even before Masaki gets infected by the Hollow, we see how Ryūken’s stiffer disposition changes when he addresses Katagiri. He regards Masaki with a touch of wariness, as though he’s not quite sure what to make of her and trying to picture himself married to her, but with Katagiri, he’s different, and she in turn is clearly very taken with him:

One of the things Ryūken and Katagiri also have going for them is the Childhood Friends to Lovers trope, which Kubo is undeniably a fan of (confirmed for Rukia & Renji, Gin & Rangiku, plus heavily hinted for both Tōshirō & Momo and Kisuke & Yoruichi). Ryūken and Katagiri may not qualify as friends, strictly speaking, but the scene where we first hear of this, when Katagiri opens up her heart to Ryūken, frames their first meeting in a romantic light:

8Ryuuken: You can go home and tell my mother… // …that her son… / …has no right to protect the way of the Quincy.Katagiri: I will not.Ryuuken: …I said go home.Katagiri: I will not. / I cannot leave you on your own, young master.Ryuuken: Katagiri………!Katagiri: Ryuuken-sama. // Have you forgotten? / It is my sworn duty to dedicate my entire life… // …to serving you.9Katagiri: From the day we first set eyes on one another… // …my life has belonged to you. // So, please… // Please… // …do not be sad. // If you feel sorrow, Ryuuken-sama… // …my heart will be torn apart. // If you shed tears -Ryuuken: Katagiri.

That’s some seriously romantic dialogue right there, plus it has the added cultural element of them sharing an umbrella for the return trip home, a very romantic gesture in Japan.

Ryūken and Katagiri most certainly don’t qualify as a forced pairing, but they do reinforce the notion that marriage should have its basis in love and respect to work. Ryūken may have cared deeply about Masaki (mostly platonically, with perhaps a hint of romance), but forcing a marriage between them when he loved Katagiri and she in turn had just fallen in love with Isshin, would’ve made them all four of them miserable.

So in case it wasn’t already obvious, anon, I’m a big fan of pairings that go against tradition in order to be together xD I did very much enjoy the build-up with Elizabeth and Darcy’s relationship, especially as it was slowly revealed that he wasn’t the asshat both she and the audience originally assumed he was (I love that an early draft of the novel was called ‘First Impressions’ lmao). Or rather, that he had a good heart, but had to learn to see beyond the surface, which over the course of the novel, he does.

Jane and Bingley were also pretty damn cute, but Elizabeth and Darcy, with their faults and their prickliness, are far more relatable than the always cheerful and friendly Jane and Bingley. The two are obviously very well-suited for each other, they’re just the Golden Retriever to Elizabeth and Darcy’s Grumpy Cat. And I’ve always been a fan of cats.

Wickham can go eat a bag of dicks.

#asks #ryuugiri #isshimasa #urayoru #byahisa #renruki #pride and prejudice #Anonymous

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