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Jonsa: I’m still asking why
D&D could have given us a tragic romance with Jon/Dany where Jon genuinely loves her but has to kill her when she goes mad and starts burning everyone. That would have been heartbreaking. OR, Jon loves her but still chooses to kill Dany because of his loyalty to the Starks. Again, heartbreaking.
Instead, for unknowable reasons, D&D undercut J/D’s relationship at every opportunity while simultaneously telling us that it was love. They take pains to prevent chemistry or any real romance occurring, made it an explicitly abusive relationship in 8x04 with Dany becoming very creepy, controlling, predatory, and they STILL want us to believe it’s love? That Jon’s duty to family is the death of his love for Dany? They were undermining that interpretation from 8x02 on which made the death scene completely devoid of impact.
On the other hand, they spent three seasons on the Jon/Sansa relationship, building up to Jon choosing Sansa over Dany, and we knew after 8x01 that that’s where this all was going when they started playing the love triangle visually and made Sansa jealous. They ultimately have Jon kill Dany to protect Sansa (Arya reminds us that it’s Sansa who won’t kneel in 8x06), and yet, they undermine that by having Tyrion switch love/duty in the quote. So, suddenly, it isn’t about Jon’s relationship with Sansa, it’s Jon’s duty to the Starks that moves him. That…that rips the emotional resonance right out of Jon’s choice. Not only does all that build up no longer make sense, they worked towards the opposite interpretation for years, aggressively contradicted it in s8, but that’s what they wanted to leave us with?
Weiterlesen
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I really think this is the answer. D and D looking at Star Wars like:
I usually have quite a good gut instinct on what ship becomes canon (regardless of whether I ship it). I never shipped Romione, but I knew they were endgame. I knew that my canon-bent Dramione fantasies were just that: Nice headcanons with no basis in canon. I knew Katniss would choose peace-loving Peeta and I loved it, when it happened, because it was realistic and perfect. I shipped Faramir and Eowyn the moment Faramir appeared first in the books and screamed in delight when they kissed on the walls of Minas Tirith. I don’t have to be invested into a ship to know that they will be a thing. I usually just know. Just yesterday I saw a movie with my family and the very first time we delved into the protagonists childhood memories I pointed at her cousin and said: She is in love with the other girl, and there is going to be trouble about that.
My hunches were only ever wrong with Zutara and Jonsa. And still Jonsa has left me more hollow than any other ship yet, and I think I finally worked out why.
There was real evidence for Zutara in ATLA and of course I was disappointed that they didn’t become a thing, but there was still nice content, there is still the possibility that they might get together in a slightly canon-bent world. They still fit. And it is not as if Kataang is a bad ship. The ending was not as I wanted it, but it still made sense. It was a satisfying ending despite the fact that it was not entirely the ending I wanted.
Now, with GoT and probably with ASOIAF as well, the story did go where I expected it to go, even with Jon dumbed down most of the season, just up to the season finale. We got DarkDany, and even Political Jon. It was just, that the finale screwed everything up and that is what bugs me most. It just made no sense. No one’s arc but Dany’s (and you could argue that DarkDany could have been done much better) made any sense. It is not just that Jonsa did not happen and all the clues are unresolved, it is that none of the stories of the people who survive make any sense, not in the way they were depicted. So it is not just that my hunches were wrong, but that the ending does not deliver a satisfying alternative. It is not like with ATLA where I could relax and say: Well, I still think Zutara would have been better, but this ending also makes sense. It is not as if everybody will be unhappy for the rest of their lives.
But with GoT I wonder: What even was this story about? That all is futile and we end where we there? That any government is corrupt now matter how it comes to be? This was all about an abusive relationship between a powerhungry tyrant and a decent fellow who then mourns for the rest of his life, because he killed her not to prevent her from killing any more civilians but to save his family? What even is this story about? Honestly? Is it just about the downfall of Dany and the Targaryens? Then why would GRRM say, that you miss 90% of the story if you focus on Jon and Dany? And if it is just about a lesson how a tyrant is created why did they fail to deliver even on that? Why are there still people defending Dany? I do think it means that D&D failed in every aspect.
No matter how much I think about it and how much I try to dissect themes and possible messages. It just makes no fucking sense.
I won’t ever stop shipping Jonsa, but I think I will have to ignore season 7 and 8, or at the very least the finale of season 8.
This is what I hate about the writing of season 7 and 8. Sense meant nothing, consistency meant nothing, it was just plot twists and surprises (which mostly were no surprises at all). This is as far from a satisfying ending as you can get. Bittersweet? Hah!
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They could of been ambitious, but they chickened out.
How do you feel about jonsa’s ending in GOT?
I’ve been thinking about this and I’m of two minds.
1. On the one hand, I am satisfied with some of the choices. I am satisfied with the fact that Jon essentially chose Sansa over Daenerys.
When I was going through the Jonsa tag at the time of the finale, there were a lot of posts about how Jon killing Daenerys wasn’t an iteration of “duty is the death of love” but rather “love is the death of duty” and I agree with that because it wasn’t that Daenerys committed war crimes that resolved Jon to execute her, I mean it definitely shook the foundation of his trust in her, but it wasn’t until Tyrion echoed Arya’s sentiment that Sansa wouldn’t bend the knee and would therefore die
and it wasn’t until Daenerys confirms that in so many words
that he resolves to kill her and just before he does do it, he doesn’t say “I will always love you” he says she will always be his queen
and so I tend to believe that he put his love for Sansa (and for Arya) above what he perceived to be his duty/his word to Daenerys, which he took seriously because he couldn’t even lie to Cersei about bending the knee in 7x07
so in this context, love was the death of duty and I think that that was appropriate for Jon and for Jonsa.
2. The hug. I didn’t say anything about the hug because there were already so many analyses of it that everything I would have to say would be redundant but I loved that hug because it’s just so Jonsa to me?
As I’ve mentioned before and quite a bit, an aspect I find really compelling about Jonsa both as a shipper and as an objective viewer of their dynamic is the passion they communicate, which you see in their arguments and disagreements and which you also see in the ferocity of their affection for each other.
And that is a Jonsa characteristic
When Arya and Jon disagree, they’re calm
like even in 8x01 Jon’s stare in response to Sansa is way more intense
So in 8x06 when Jon says bye to Arya, it’s soft and it’s poignant
when he says bye to Bran, he’s just contrite.
But when he says bye to Sansa, that hug is urgent, that hug is fierce
There was a blog that stated how for a second it looks like Jon wants to remain stoic but he simply can’t and so grabs Sansa because he’s overcome with the emotion that he possibly may never see her again and added to that I think I really enjoy that with this hug, it’s like he’s telling himself and Sansa that it’s stupid to think he couldn’t forgive her because how could he not like that grab is “I fucking love you”. It essentially reminds me of that Kit quote about Jon’s relationship with Sansa when he said that Sansa twists Jon in a way no one else can because while in the context of the quote he’s talking about how she challenges him and infuriates him because of that, I think it speaks back to that passion and ferocity that’s always kind of stirring beneath.
And the shipper in me loves this hug, the shipper in me eyes the fact that Kit looked way more affected here than he did when Jon killed Daenerys, the shipper in me smirks at the lingering gaze Jon gives to Sansa before leaving for good
especially since it’s reminiscent of the breathless quality Jonsa get when they’re around each other, the deep exhale
the closed eyes
Their chemistry is palpable, they get so affected by each other and their goodbye scene embodies that, so these are aspects that I liked about Jonsa’s ending.
3. On the other hand, it kind of goes into the entire GoT ‘what was even the point?’ sentiment because while I think the Jonsa elements we got in the context of what the show gave us makes sense, there is nothing complete or satisfying about this finale and so the way Jonsa ends it’s just like … OK so that’s it? All of the Starks are separated now when they didn’t even really have a chance to be together as one since the pilot? That alone bothers me but also considering how close and connected Jon and Sansa became since reuniting and the fact that the North is an independent queendom that doesn’t recognize the rule of the King of the Six Kingdoms, I’m just like, even as a non-ship, they should’ve ended together.
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Exhibit A:
Exhibit B:
Political jon being real is the hill that I have chosen to die on. Without it so much content, choices, and dialogue in seasons 7 and 8 makes zero sense whatsoever. I think they set it up and then wimped out of making it explicit at the very end (hence the weird episode 6 retconisode) because #controversial and just went for a “tragic love” angle and decided to keep pushing it off-screen, since they failed to sell it on screen.
I won’t even rule out the Ygritte 2.0 version of events where he goes undercover but falls in love (repetitive as hell, but ok sure), but there’s no way I will believe that the canon content presented in all episodes until 8x6 lines up with the finale in any way shape or form. I think they bottled it, as these interviews might suggest. Outcome is still the same, he betrays her, murders her, and chooses someone/something else, but they went for an ambiguous “choose your own interpretation” ending and point blank refused to spell it out. Cowards.
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The thing is, if this had been made into two seasons instead of one (battle of WF was just the sort of thing for a season finale), we probably WOULD of gotten many of these things.
Wasted things and plots in GoT
• Bran warging a Dragon
• Arya changing faces
• Gendry and Jon friendship
• Maisie Williams and Lena Headey acting together
• Jon and Night King epic fight
• Sansa and Cersei scene
• Daenerys and Arya potential friendship
• Lyanna Mormont and Arya Stark interacting
• Davos talking Gendry about Shireen
• Jon’s real indentity as rightful king
• Promise prince/princess Prophecy
• Cersei Prophecy
• Gendry being Cersei son
• Sansa and Brienne friendship
• Arya telling Tyrion and Jaime about her time with Tywin
• Arya talk to Gendry about her list advances and how she get back Needle
• Epic Golden company fight
• Brienne, Jorah, Arya, Jaime and Jon killing WW and actually using their valyrian steel weapons
• Bran seeing Long nigth history and Azor Ahai prophecy with Nissa Nissa
• Gendry forging ligthbringer
• Daenerys and Jaime interactions talking about Rhaegar, Mad King and Ser Barristan
• Jon and Arya relationship
• Jon finding out about Gendry and Arya
• Jon and Aryya pet Ghost and she telling him about Nymeria
• Meera Reed
• Jaime’s good arc and character development
• Brienne telling the Starks about Ice and how her and Jaime swords are Ice and will defend them
• Stark family moments
• Starks talking about Robb and Rickon
• Arya telling Stark how she avenged the Red Wedding
• Lyanna forgiving Jorah for House Mormont
• More Ghost battle scenes
• Varys finding out about Littlefinger death
• Starks telling join no matter what he is a Stark
• Jon talking with Arya about Lyanna Stark
• One last trial by combant (Jon vs Greyworm)
• Sansa telling the Starks how Theon helped her
• Theon and Starks interactions
• Jaime killing the Mad King flashback scene
• My time.
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Barnes and Noble POPPED OFF!!!
Right under the picture it says “All the books you need to read to discover the real story of Game of Thrones”. UNFUCKINGREAL
They were like, lets make some bank off of D&D’s dumbassery lmaooooooo
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When Jon asked Melisandre to not resurrect him, because he would come back into a world, where Sansa is no longer alive, where she killed herself, because he failed her.
↳ “I am ordering you not to bring me back.“
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The two dire wolves……. Nothing is created without meaning
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jonsa was real -- jonerys wasn’t
“And then imagine working your way up and suddenly at the last hurdle, this … cute boy with curly hair comes along and screws everything up because she’s in love with him and doesn’t know how to handle that. She thinks she can have it all with him, that he can give her what she’s been craving her whole life. And he turns out to be not what she thought and he will choose someone over her. Again, her worth isn’t enough for anyone else.” - Emilia Clarke, LA Times
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Jon & Sansa looking at each other like THAT, (not) for the last time.
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When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives.
“Do you have any faith in me at all?” “You know I do.”
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If this is so, it will be more clear in the yet to be released books.
Hear me out Jonsas
If Sansa is supposed to be Elizabeth the I, then Jon is her Duke Dudley.
They had been friends since childhood, and she loved him because he loved her despite her being Queen. He also entered into a marriage and his wife died causing their relationship to halt.
HOWEVER…
Her people still wondered if they were a thing or not because they kinda sorta still continued around each other, and people thought that he (Jon) killed his wife (Dany?), and they also thought she (Sansa) conspired in his wife’s death.
Which Sansa did technically. And that’s kinda why Jon had to go up the Wall in exile. So…I’m not saying GRRM and the writers pulled from this to drive Sansa’s character arc, but it WOULD make sense why they were shot so romantically. And why there was a jealousy scene.
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