serene-faerie
The World of Faeries and Magic
Tamil-Canadian, cisgender, she/her - ISFJ - 12/19 - Mid-20’s - Sixth Gun - Attended 05.2016 at Vogue Theatre and 09.05.2019 at Queen Elizabeth Theatre - Bleach - The Silmarillion
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if I forgot your favorite subgenre or misclassified a band feel free to argue in the replies 👍
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And the results are in! Looks like a lot of people like all three actresses who played Lúthien!
Thank you to everyone who voted!
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Congratulations! You are now a Magic-User!!
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Only 2 days left!
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Simply Luthien…
February 2023.
#tinuviel 🥺#what a beauty!!#honestly no wonder beren fell in love immediately#who wouldn’t want to protect that joyful smile#the silmarillion#luthien tinuviel#jrr tolkien#beren and luthien
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This is what happened when a fanfic site is profit driven. Wattpad sucks 😞
The email from Wattpad is so condescending imagine pressuring writers to update and work while they are doing it for free and fun. Also the discovery? Algorithm? Of Wattpad looks like a stressful popularity contest 😑
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Through Darkness I Walked, Loving You - Chapter 2: In wood and glen, on grove and glade
Summary:
After four years of fighting, Renji flees from Aizen's forces and finds himself in a forest where his life changes forever.
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Ichigo and Orihime
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Now do Canada
If you want more of a challenge, try this one too and say what you got in the tags
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Decided to make a post about how most (not all) of Thingol's actions that fans criticize were justified (or at least understandable) and in the interest of his people. I'd recommend checking out warrioreowynofrohan and imakemywings for far more comprehensive meta about the tall boi. Also, no quotes because I'm lazy, but all the canon I mention is from the published Silmarillion.
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1. Quenya ban
I've seen the Quenya ban be described as cultural genocide which icks me out. First of all, maybe don't use genocide to describe fictional characters in a fictional universe, especially when it's happening to real people and cultures. Second of all, that term is still inaccurate. Quenya was spoken in Gondolin, probably in Hithlum and Nargothrond too, and no one was punished for it. Earendil could speak Quenya. The Numenoreans could speak Quenya. Bilbo fucking Baggins could speak Quenya.
The ban was a nonviolent way for Thingol to enact some sort of consequence for the people who murdered his brother's people, stole their ships, and then took advantage of his hospitality while keeping this heinous secret. And it was a way to make sure that Sindarin remained the lingua franca of Beleriand, because the Noldor had already proven their disdain towards the Sindar and their intent to establish their own kingdoms. I think it was imakemywings who said that the ban was also a soft power move to show how all the Sindar who worked with/under the Noldor were still ultimately loyal to Thingol and would obey his decree.
So no, the Quenya ban was not racist or xenophobic or cultural genocide. Again, don't use those terms to describe fiction, and if you insist on doing so, at least look them up in the dictionary first.
2. Isolationism
No he wasn't. He was friends with the dwarves, the Laiquendi, and the Falathrim. He made a mutually beneficial alliance with the Haladin. He was rightfully wary of the (armed-to-the-teeth and hiding something) Noldor but even after he learns about the kinslaying he says he won't cut off relations with the Nolofinweans indefinitely because he recognizes that they're in the fight against Morgoth together.
The Girdle of Melian was only put in place after the first battle when Denethor was killed and it was absolutely the right decision strategically. Thingol knew immediately what it took the Noldor 400 years and countless deaths to understand: there was no defeating Morgoth without the Valar. So he took his people and anyone else who was willing, and he created a kingdom with a semblance of peace where they could thrive. Doriath was a fortress and a symbol of hope for Beleriand. As long as Doriath stood, Morgoth hadn't won completely. No one who cared about Beleriand would have sacrificed that hope for some fanciful ideals of vengeance and glory. And don't forget, he let Beleg and Mablung participate in the Nirnaeth. The fact that only those two went means that no one else in Doriath was willing to fight.
3. Maedhros's comment about a king is he who can hold his own
The arrogance. I'm sorry, Mr. I Got Fooled By Morgoth, were you able to hold your own? You'd be a skeleton hanging from a cliff if Fingon hadn't rescued you. Thingol was filling his armories while the Noldor were still chilling in Valinor. Thingol was battling Morgoth while the Noldor were betraying each other and abandoning their home. He literally said: "...elsewhere there are many of my people, and I would not have them restrained of their freedom, still less ousted from their homes." Those are the words of a king who feels responsible for the people outside of Doriath too. Also, check out the difference between Maedhros's "we'll go wherever we want" comment and Thingol's "I don't like them but they'll be the deadliest foes of Morgoth".
His decision to retreat and put up the Girdle was strategically sound. Many Laiquendi joined him after Denethor's death and the Falathrim came and went freely. He had a choice between spreading out his already depleted forces to help the northern Sindar/Falathrim (and likely get annihilated) or retreat, recover, and wait for a better opportunity (the arrival of the Noldor was not a better opportunity; like I said, he knew only the Valar could defeat Morgoth, and Melian also sensed the Doom). Again, Doriath was a symbol of hope. "Gondor wanes, you say. But Gondor stands." Its survival was essential.
4. Attitude towards Men
Look I'm not going to defend his less-than-stellar attitude, but I do think it's exaggerated by the fandom. Before Beren came, Thingol still agreed to let the Haladin dwell in his territory. He even sent the marchwardens to aid them against orcs. And the minute he realizes Beren's loyalty, bravery, and true love for Luthien, he changes and welcomes him (and also appreciates his humor). He treats Turin like a son, and honors and pities Hurin even when Hurin disrespects him. Turgon otoh refuses to let Hurin into Gondolin even though they were actually friends.
5. Didn't join the Union of Maedhros
See: reasons above. Doriath had to survive. Elves could not defeat Morgoth without the Valar. Also, afaik he didn't actually have an army, just the marchwardens and his guard. Also also, Maedhros had subtly threatened him, Celegorm and Curufin had openly threatened him, and this was after they kidnapped and tried to forcibly marry Luthien. Also also also, he "went not to war, nor any out of Doriath save Mablung and Beleg" meaning the general populace didn't want to fight either.
6. Didn't accept refugees
As far as I'm aware, this is completely fanon. The (Noldorin, just fyi) refugees of Nargothrond are accepted into Doriath, as are the Sindar after Bragollach. Curufin and Celegorm's people join Amrod in Ossiriand I believe after the Nirnaeth. There's no canonical basis for this claim.
7. Responsible for Finrod's death
Nah dude. I'm not saying he was right in setting the quest, it was absolutely a horrible quest. But Finrod decided of his own free will to help Beren. You can say that he wouldn't have died if Thingol hadn't set the quest, but that's like saying if Morgoth hadn't stolen the Silmarils, the kinslayings wouldn't have happened. Objectively true, but missing a whole lotta nuance and absolving the Feanorians of their culpability. And I'm not comparing Thingol with Morgoth so don't start.
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The criticisms I don't mention are the ones I agree with. He should have listened to Melian. He should have reasoned with the dwarves instead of insulting them; honestly, his death was pretty stupid. He probably should have been a little more willing to establish relations with the Nolofinweans, but I understand completely why he didn't. He definitely shouldn't have fucked with the Silmaril but tbh, that seemed like one of the parts where a bigger force was determining things, like it was written in the Music already, because that Silmaril did play a key role in Morgoth's defeat.
In conclusion: Thingol rocked, fandom shocked.
Obligatory disclaimer: I meant no offense to anybody, and everyone is entitled to hold their own opinion on the Silm and its characters.
#thank you so much for this!#yes thingol has made his mistakes but he is not as awful as the fandom makes him out to be!#the silmarillion#elu thingol#jrr tolkien#he’s allowed to be upset about alqualonde. those were his brother’s people!
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Summary - Who Is and Isn’t Allowed Into Doriath
I wanted to make this post because I’ve had some things drawn to my atttention that I hadn’t noticed before, and I see a lot of misconceptions around this. Doriath is not nearly as closed off from the rest of Beleriand as is often assumed.
Who Is Not Allowed In
The starting point for this is Thingol’s statement to the Noldor:
“Into Doriath none shall come to abide but only such as I call as guests, or who seek me in great need.”
This is often taken as meaning that no Noldor except Finarfin’s children are ever permitted into Doriath, but the latter part specifically does allow for the possibility of war refugees ‘in great need’ entering Doriath, and as we will see, this is followed up on later.
Men are also forbidden from entering Doriath, and this is a blanket statement. However, Finrod does later convince Thingol to let the Haladin settle in Brethil, which is considered part of Doariaty but is outside the Girdle of Melian, and Doriath provides military support to the Haladin during the Dagor Bragollach.
We have, that I am aware of, only one specific described instance of an elf seeking entrance to Doriath and being refused: Aredhel.
Aredhel seeks to travel through Doriath to reach the lands of the sons of Fëanor so she can visit them. She is not allowed in, as being used as a cut-through for people to visit people who, the Doraithrim already dislike is really not considered sufficient reason. Now, Aredhel has other options - either go the long way around to the south of Doriath, or go north and cross Ard-Galen or northern Dorthonion. The latter is how the Men of what will later be the house of Hador get into western Beleriand:
Most of these took the long road northward, until the ways became well known to them…some came to Hithlum, but Magor son of Aradan and many of the people passed down Sirion into Beleriand and dwelt a while in the vales of the southern slopes of the Ered Wethrin.
Aredhel instead chooses the most direct but much more dangerous route through Nan Dungortheb. But that isn’t a decision Doriath is forcing on her, and they in fact warn her of its dangers.
Likewise, Haleth leads her people through Nan Dungortheb “without help or guidance of the Eldar,” and thus may not have known that there were safer routes available.
Who Is Allowed In
Doriath is open to all of the Sindar (Círdan’s people come and go freely, and it’s from them that Thingol first hears the rumours about the Kinslaying); to Dwarves, who trade with the Sindar; to the refugees of Nargothrond; as well as to the children of Finarfin and to the family of Húrin and any househokd retainers who come with them. Additionally, there is no mention, anywhere that I am aware of in The Silmarillion, of elven refugees of war, Noldor or Sindar, being refused admittance to Doriath, and the examples from both the Bragollach and the Fall of Nargothrond indicate that refugees who came there were admitted.
Dwarves continue trading with Doriath throughout the bulk of the First Age. In the years after the Nirnaeth:
In those days the Dwarves came still on their journeys into Beleriand from their mansions in Ered Lindon, and passing over Gelion at Sarn Athrad, the Ford of Stones, they travellee the ancient road to Doriath; for their skill in the working of metal and stone was very great, and there was much need of their craft in the halls of Menegroth. But they came no longer in small parties as aforetime, but in great companies well armed for their protection in the perilous lands between Aros and Gelion…
So the Dwarves have been coming to Doriath over a long period of time, in small companies during the Long Peace and in larger groups after it ended.
Refugees specifically come to Doriath after the Dagor Bragollach. I know there’s material in HoME about Thingol mistrusting the Northern Sindar, but irrespective of that, it is very clear that they were allowed in:
The most part of the Grey-elves fled south and forsook the northern war; many were recieved into Doriath, and the kindom and strength of Thingol grew greater in that time.
There is no mention, anywhere, of the Fëanoreans seeking entry to Doriath after the Bragollach, and given their pride and their open contempt for it, it would be rather uncharacteristic of them to do so. Instead we are told Celegorm and Curufin went south and west, suggesting first south, and then west, around the south borders of Doriath. They could have joined up with Caranthir and the twins on Amon Ereb, but for whatever reason chose to go to Nargothrond instead.
There don’t appear to have been many in the way of elves of Dorthonion, Angrod and Aegnor’s people, left to seek refuge anywhere; it was sparsely populated (their people were few, “Of Beleriand and its Realms”) bore the brunt of the attack, and few survived.
After the Nirnaeth, Elves who participated in the battle (apart from Mablung and Beleg) seem to fall into three groups: those who died on the battlefield (the vast majority), those who retreated to Gondolin (Turgon’s forces, and any remnants of Fingon’s forces they could gather), and the Fëanorean forces who fled south to Ossiriand. There’s not really any Elves who would be seeking admittance to Doriath; certainly not the Fëanoreans, who have openly threatened to murder them all!
And after the Fall of Nargothrond, refugees from there come to Doriath and are admitted - it’s how Thingol (and Morwen) learn of the kingdom’s fall in the first place:
Now new tidings came to Doriath concerning Nargothrond, for some that had escaped the defeat and the sack and had survived the Fell Winter in the wild, came at last to Thingol seeking refuge, and the march-wardens brought them to the King.
This is even more significant given, well, Nargothrond’s complicity in the whole kidnapping-and-attempted-forced-marriage-of-Thingol’s-daughter thing.
So in sum, the idea of Doriath turning away Elven refugees of the wars is pure fanon, and all the canon evidence that we have points to the direct opposite. The cases where Doriath did turn people away who directly sought entry involve people in peacetime who wanted to travel throught it but had the option of other, and relatively safe (if less direct) routes, even if they did not take them.
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i worked so hard on this joke please validate me
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Please reblog for a bigger sample!
#the silmarillion#silmarillion#the silm fandom#silm polls#beren and luthien#lay of leithian#lay of leithian rock opera#lol the rock opera#luthien#luthien tinuviel#vilena sokolova#daria burlyukalo#ekaterina nikolskaya#jrr tolkien#tolkien#tolkien polls
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Looks like a lot of people think that Thingol and Beren’s relationship is complicated after the Quest for the Silmaril!
Thanks to everyone who voted!
I’ve been thinking about Thingol in Beren and Lúthien lately; namely, what happens after he allows Beren to marry Lúthien.
I’m not sure how much time passes between Beren and Lúthien’s return to Doriath and the Hunting of Carcharoth. I personally imagine that at least a few weeks or even one month passed by before Carcharoth entered Doriath, which means that Beren and Thingol might have had time to sort things out together.
So, if we go off that assumption, I have to ask everyone:
I personally think they had a decent relationship (maybe even somewhat close), but I’d like to hear other people’s thoughts. Please reblog and explain your reasons in the tags!
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