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bethchapel · 1 year

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I did understand the point of the gifset, you were drawing parallels between father and son and of how Jordan relied on love-bombing to convince his son of his newfound peace phylosophy. It's true that he is the narcissistic person here (I'll need an actual fight between them in the finale before officially labeling him as abusive though) so I do agree with you that he manipulated Cameron in that scene. From where my disagreement comes from is that Cameron was groomed to behave similar next. Jordan is faking everything in order to get whatever results he wants and it's why he is saying the right type of things to get reactions not just from his son but also from Barbara and Courtney in their own scenes. He is just repeating the fallacies he's been made to believe by Icicle and getting close to Court was to reassure her he was there on his own and not because anyone else sent him as some kind of Trojan horse. If anything him holding her hand can be seen as a callback to when she grabbed his when he was unsure of everything in 3x04 His unawareness of what is still going on behind his back must be taken into account because his response would be different. And isn't it too late to change now the dynamic when it comes to Camney? A villain origin story needs a proper build up for it to make sense. Had Court failed in 3x04 and never was able to get through him in controlling his powers and Cam just plunged further into the hate and the frustrations he had and never was able to find a way to keep expressing himself artistically through the ice as his auxiliary alternative then I'd agree with you that we were seeing his descend into an evil Icicle Jr. But that hasn't been the journey they've showed us nor the tone of his scenes has matched them. He reconnected with his humanity when Court taught him how to use his emotions (a big theme of S3, see Jennie and Todd) to continue being an artist. Cameron is struggling between the pull between to his family's legacies and the duty he's supposed to answer for (a clan that has been chased for their powers and thus bear anger and hate to the world which Jordan tried to reshape it's way of thinking by force) and the things and people that he loves. I think that ship has already sailed.

The point of the gifset was to demonstrate the uncomfortable and inappropriate use of physical affection and the silencing effect it left on the other party, in how within the same episode Cameron gave what he received. Moving on.

If you agree with me that he manipulated Cameron in that scene, how are you reluctant to labelling it as abuse? Emotional and repetitive psychological damage does not have to present itself in fighting words or physical combat. Most abusive parents do not have superhero fights with their children??? Was not Henry Jr and Henry Sr. an abusive relationship before Henry Sr. murdered his son? (Spoiler alert: It was!!!) As you pointed out, Jordan Mahkent gaslit his ass off the entire episode. Gaslighting and secretly spying on your child is abusive. The entire Mahkent family (Sofus is much more latent than Lily, but it doesn't mean he isn't a participant) has been grooming Cameron. Full stop.

They've been actively training Cameron to become like them and you can see they've been slowly but surely indoctrinating him with their ideology because he is so indifferent to how involved his family is with crime. Could it be that this is his trauma-response? Sure, absolutely, can be. But it still goes to show that he's being socialized to share the Mahkent's worldviews which has and always will be "be charismatic about your atrocities by victim-blaming and making people love you"

Jordan in fact makes that clear here when speaking to Barbara:

This doesn't mean that Cameron is an evil person in episode 3x11. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying that he is aware that he's being conditioned this way. But we have to acknowledge that this grooming is alive and present to move forward or else you're going to be stuck here, which is why it's not making sense for you.

His grandparents have made it very hard for Cameron to be influenced by outsiders, and Jordan never makes it sound like he's done anything wrong. He's always painting himself in the right, and so Cameron will also see himself in the right, but that doesn't excuse his behaviour in that it is uprooted from how he's being raised. Courtney was able to see something was VERY fishy about that. It's why she asked him if Jordan had sent that in the first place. Because he sounded like his father. So naturally, Cameron escalating when his words weren't being convincing by initiating physical contact by holding her hands and kissing her is just all the more of Cameron implicitly picking up cues from his father. It doesn't excuse the behaviour, it just explains it.

Now, using this information, you can see how Cameron's villain origin is rooted in every aspect of his interactions in season three, but even beforehand, in which Cameron is going to have to come to terms that he's been gaslit and lied to by virtually everyone he knows. This includes Courtney. Every episode Cameron's behaviour grows more concerning. This is what we in in the business would call “troubling”:

- 2x05 - Cameron acting as though he was entitled to Courtney’s time, guilt-tripping her before they even started dating (I remember at the time a lot of people vocalized on tumblr that his phrasing felt....hmm...)

- 3x02 - Cameron’s sudden fit of anger in the art room

- 3x03 - Cameron’s fit with Ms. Woods // popping Rick’s tire on reflex upon seeing it.

- 3x04 - Screaming out and blasting Courtney across the room (accidental) upon a single touch, but not checking to see if she’s okay later, waiting for Courtney to pull up a chair for him?? Also just absolutely accepting her weird response?? Hmm.

- 3x05 - Cindy provoked him but it lead to Cindy noticing that Cameron was not fully in control, and dropped that he has anger management problems from a young age, which could therefore be a danger to Courtney. She urged Courtney to drop Cameron.

- Post 3x06 - Cameron no longer apologizes for any of his actions. This is a heel-turn as 3x03 and 3x05 Cameron did apologize to Courtney, Ms. Woods, Rick and to the JSA. You know who else doesn’t apologize for their actions, ever? Lily and Jordan.

- 3x09 - All of it.

- 3x10 - Cameron’s tonal shift in the break up scene. The “who did it?” cutting Courtney off as she’s explaining herself. Cameron threatening Courtney to never see her again.

- 3x11 - Cameron’s entire speech on the porch - At the end of the day he justified a double-murder of people that he knew after being so hung-up about another accidental killing that he was ready to kill someone else over it. That’s..Disturbing?? And not okay?? And indicates he’s well on his way to adopting such a way of life just as it had been established he’d been trained (groomed) to do?? And it also indicates that with his visit to Courtney after previously changing his mind, that he’s prone to flip-flopping since he no longer cared that she lied about the Icicle death? And he didn’t tell her that he knew the truth?

In season one, Jordan told Cameron:

And Cameron is taking that and RUNNING with it in 3x11, but the manner in which he’s doing it isn’t healthy (and the context in which Jordan had told the story in which he had killed Christine’s other love interest to get her is also horrible, obviously). Cameron is still modelling his behaviour after his father’s and using his advice. It may seem harmless, but none of this is harmless. Just because Jordan might’ve not told explicitly to Cameron “go visit Courtney” before the porch scene, it doesn’t take away from the fact Jordan’s weaponizing the relationship. Jordan in his position as a supervillain, goes so far as to push Courtney to continue to be with Cameron as he is lying to her. It is uncomfortable. It is manipulative. This is the kind of person Cameron idolizes. He’s soaking it up and squeezing it out, he just doesn’t realize it.

Season 1 Cameron Mahkent and season 3B Cameron Mahkent are virtually two different people.

Journey? ✅

Tone? ✅

To summarize, Courtney did fail. Cameron is WORSE off now post-Courtney’s “help” than he was beforehand. So I’m not sure what you mean that she had connected him to his humanity as if this was a win. 3x06 has not done anything to change or prevent Cameron from spiralling in the way we are actively see him do in 3x09-3x11. This is even sedimented in the musical motifs that they use for him, the increasingly chaotic synths, the ominous undertones to his theme. The way that the quirky cute Camney music is gone now when Camney interacted in 3x11. The Camney dynamic has already changed and the build up for villainous Cameron has been here all along.

Geoff Johns has always written Cameron as a supervillain in literally every project he’s ever used him in. Every iteration of Icicle Jr in television has him disliking his father but still itching to either please him or prove him wrong, but still doing this while being an enemy to the heroes he’s facing and exhibiting concerning social behaviour (even in Young Justice, this is the case, go watch episode “Terrors”, for example). Why? Because that’s his character.

This is when I have to point out, again, that this season was not written to be a final and complete story for the series. The last episode has an alternative ending to leave us without a gigantic cliffhanger, yes, but it doesn’t mean that this entire story arc is supposed to be contained and finished by 3x13. It is clear, just as it is clear with what they’re now doing for Artemis, that they had stories planned for Cameron and Artemis for a season 4 based upon what had been wrongly done to them in this season, giving them motivations to eventually fully embrace opposing the JSA.

Now, just the last sentence.

“Cameron is struggling between the pull between to his family's legacies and the duty he's supposed to answer for (a clan that has been chased for their powers and thus bear anger and hate to the world which Jordan tried to reshape it's way of thinking by force) and the things and people that he loves.”

I’ve been struggling with this. I don’t understand what this is implying. Both of these pulls “the family’s legacy” and “the duty he’s supposed to answer for” are both...bad options? Not to mention, I’m not sure why you’re bringing in the Mahkent persecution angle into this. What duty is Cameron obliged towards? What does he have to answer for? Why is this relevant towards the Mahkents’ behaviour? Minority groups are constantly persecuted. It’s awful. It seems as their story tells, that an entire community of ice-metas or so, have been exiled from Norway, but it’s not the entire community that is resorting to using their powers to exact revenge for their trauma? Unless the Mahkents were the only family to ever survive the exodus...Wouldn’t ice-metas be otherwise have become known world-terrorists? This entire story is an excuse, and it honestly makes me uncomfortable that the Mahkents are using xenophobia as their self-victimization mechanism of choice to further alienate Cameron as to why Jordan does what he does and painting him as a hero to justify their serial killing/mass-removal of agency agenda. Because nothing that Jordan has been doing in this entire show has been fuelled by the persecution of his family members or community...Those are Lily’s reasons, that, yes, have shaped Jordan’s warped vision towards the world. However! That’s not how Jordan’s narrative had been juxtaposed through seasons 1-3?

Jordan’s raison d'être for the ISA’s new plan/American Dream cover up for his murder spree had been to target the anti-ethical corporation that had poisoned Christine through environmental negligence. By having Jordan ask/expect his parents to use the “woe is us, we have been casted aside and stomped upon by society, labelled as monsters” ideology AKA the sociological term of “Othering” to bring Cameron to their side instead of straight up telling him “Oh yeah, well, businessmen’s greed killed your mom! ” simply emphasizes the unnecessary and harmful fabrication of this entire backstory to create the “us vs. them” dichotomy. Oh look! That’s called more grooming.

It’s especially more concerning when Cameron has been raised in an environment that’s been cultivated by Jordan’s carefully manufactured privileged position of power in Blue Valley...Like, y’all, I’m sorry. Jordan is a white man in America who can turn off his freaky powers left and right as he pleases. He’s not scaring anybody until he reveals himself. Every single way they present this story of epic injustice and marginalization to Cameron flops dramatically...It’s just wrong.

There isn’t any real right pull that Cameron must be compelled to follow here that his father and his grandparents are presenting. This “duty” doesn’t exist. He’s not being oppressed by a greater societal force. But we see that he’s still actively engaging and participating in accepting this narrative! Because...again...He’s being groomed.

The things and people that Cameron loves are all parts of the large machine that are going to be churning out a kid with a massive complex. Choosing them doesn’t mean he’s automatically going to live the rest of his life doing the right things. What he has are his lying, hyper-controlling family and the art which has been the chosen method to repress his anger for years. Not to mention, it’s the medium of choice of his mother who was also aligned with the horrible Mahkent ideology. His art teacher was murdered by those people he loves...He has no friends....

Or Courtney, who has participated in feeding him the falsities of his reality and that he has only dated for like...2 weeks? Who he had already broken up with but is trying to convince to throw aside her morals now to be with him which is now making her uncomfortable? And I’m imploring that we remember Courtney’s agency in this situation. If Cameron chooses “love” it does not mean that Courtney must agree to that choice. She is entitled to say no to him. It’s worth mentioning that Barbara said no to Jordan in 1x13 and that’s what made him snap. Courtney should say no to him if he continues to exhibit these behaviours.

Anyway, I’ve said all that I’ve wanted to. The bottom line is that yes, Cameron’s relationship with his father is abusive. No, Cameron very likely doesn’t realize this. Yes, Cameron’s behaviour is increasingly concerning. Yes, he’s learning said behaviours from Jordan + family members who are enabling said behaviour. I still like Cameron, and I’m rooting for him to be both delusional and disillusioned, but I’m not defending him at this point in the game.

#not to be a bitch but this final season is really bringing the dumb fans out of hiding 💀 y'all just type shit into tkvs askbox and send #anon: describes abuse #also anon: i hesitate to label it as abuse though 🤔#cameron mahkent #jordan mahkent

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