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absolutebl · 2 years

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Hi,...

[Oh God! I'm good at asking technical stuff. But this question tilts towards the emotional side of knowing more about a relationship dynamics. Hope I make sense.]

Like,...

Usually we see several tropes in a BL series. Like Friends to Lovers, Enemies to Lover, Strangers to Lovers, etc,...etc,...

There's also been several BL series were we've seen "Love-At-First-Sight", that happens with either the one who is going to pursue the relationship, OR from both the sides, although only one takes the lead.

Now,...I'm genuinely curious about this one particular trope, which I don't know how to categorize it correctly, although for the purpose of understanding things better, we may say, one of the partner is a "Tsundere".

Let me start with "SOTUS" The Series as an example.

Kong loves Arthit since day one. Well,...Arthit may or may not be in love, but he surely likes Kong, although he's a typical Tsundere, and his ego never allowed him to accept it. Fine! I agree, and understand that sometimes it takes time for some to firstly accept the fact that they have developed feelings for someone, let alone reciprocate that feeling. But for how long???

"Tsundere" as a term sounds can be romanticised in a story,...but in real life, I don't know how far it works. What I mean by that is,...for long and to what extent will only one person continue to put all their efforts in a relationship, while the other one just seem to sit and do nothing? And sometimes I mean absolutely nothing.

Be it a 'Tsundere Uke' or a 'Tsundere Seme',....I'm curious as to how far can one act cold and distant with the one they love just because they happen to be introvert or badly traumatised because of their past?

I'll take another example here,..."Oxygen" The Series had P'Phu and Kao,...where the Uke was clearly madly in love with the Seme,...but P'Phu until the end behaved like a total jerk,...not for once being man enough to reciprocate his feelings the way the other guy deserved. And that really irritated and disappointed me.

I want to understand the basic psychology of a character that behaves cold and distant, especially from the perspective of a Seme,...and how different is it in a homosexual love vs hetrosexual love?

Now,...for Arthit (Uke),...it was very challenging for him to come to terms with his own sexuality because of which he almost rejected Kong. And he needed several assurances from his friends and seniors before he acknowledged the fact that his feelings for a man isn't wrong. And that shit really isn't acceptable to me. For a grown-ass man,...why does he need to seek clarification from everyone to accept his own feelings?

And with P'Phu,...the shit is even bizarre. He knows Kao likes him a lot, because unlike him,...Kao is an open book. Yet,...he doesn't treat Kao right only because Kao happens to be exact opposite of him. And until the end,...Phu expects Kao to wait for him if his love is indeed true, which Kao readily accepts. I mean,...like WTF!

Now,....I'll mention about my most favourite couple FighterxTutor from "Why R U!?". Because although Fighter was head-over-heels for Tutor since the beginning,...it's not until Tutor makes him realize his own feelings, that Fighter finally confesses of like Tutor since day one and being sure of it. I mean,...WHY? Why did Fighter act distant with Tutor to the extent of teasing him all the time, while being sure of the fact that he loves him?

And the same BS happens with another of my favourite couple Phupha and Tian from "ATOTS". I understand that Chief.PhuPha is a very difficult personality to understand. And given the age, social, and perhaps cultural differences between PhuPha and Tian,...it must have been difficult for the Seme to accept his own feelings. But that does not mean he had to be so rude and distant with his own love?

And all these confuses me a lot.

I genuinely want to know,...

Why does it take so much of time for a "Tsundere Seme" to accept his own feelings, despite the fact that his love-interest has got nothing to down with his fear or insecurity?

In real life,...or even in fiction,...if one continues to pursue the "Tsundere" with an expectation that things will eventually turn in their favour, how long is too long?

Why does most of the "Tsundere" characters wait until the point where their lovers decide to leave them for good?

Is it justified on the part of the "Tsundere Seme" to let someone continue pursuing them,..until they overcome their deep-rooted fears, or unwarranted insecurities?

If the "Tsundere Seme" is sure of his own feelings,...what gives him the audacity to play with the feelings of someone that genuinely loves him?

Does the relationship dynamic change if the pursuer of a "Tsundere Seme" happens to be a "Power-Bottom Uke"?

Thanks!

xoxo

Arjuna

You always asks such complicated questions. But this one seems to be coming from a place of pain, who hurt you and do I have to bitch slap someone?

I have to mostly answer this from a narrative perspective because the complexities of a close-off person IRL are going to be entirely case specific. But I can try to explain a little so:

On an entirely personal level, I am the tsundere and always have been in all my relationships, but I am also 90% of the time much less damaged than the charming sunshines I inevitably end up with (and cannot seem to resist). So they are better equipped to answer the "why attracted to tsundere" IRL question. Not me.

Nevertheless, over the years and many MANY relationships, I will say what my lovers tend to like about me is my even keel predictable sternness. (See comments for more/alternate perspectives). IRL a grumpy pessimistic practical and dominant personality like mine is at least not erratic or changeable. Like the tsundere of narratives, we do tend to have cores of softness and once we love we are VERY loyal (so long as it's on our terms and we can control the situation) but unlike the tsundere of narratives we do not change. But we may relax for the right person.

And if I were to give any piece of relationship advice it would be:

please never enter a relationship thinking you can change (heal or save) the person (or persons). You may grow and shift as a couple/group (and most likely mellow) over the years, but even love can't change another person's core personality. That is the single biggest lie romance tells us. Right up there with the idea there there is a "one" out there.

Puts soap box away.

And now, the questions: Tsundere in BL & IRL

1. Why does it take so much of time for a "Tsundere Seme" to accept his own feelings, despite the fact that his love-interest has got nothing to do with his fear or insecurity?

Because the tsundere character fears risk of exposer (of his own feelings) more than anything. It is the act of showing the soft underbelly that the tsundere so jealously guards.

It’s not about admitting he has feelings for the other boy, it is more about admitting he has feelings AT ALL.

A narrative tsundere is a tsundere because he is afraid of being hurt, and that hurt can only come if he opens himself up (to love, to the other person, to being gay, etc...) So he will try to stay closed off as long as possible.

2. In real life,...or even in fiction,...if one continues to pursue the "Tsundere" with an expectation that things will eventually turn in their favour, how long is too long?

Until the tsundere sees you/their romantic partner as safe.

IRL usually for this kind of personality it’s about control and predictability. So they have to know and predict your actions and feelings, to classify you as safe and worthy of trust (AKA admitting to love).

This can come off as manipulative (pressing your buttons with criticism or praise or compliments) or controlling (ordering for you at a restaurant) and then you’ll have to decide, in turn, if that’s safe for you. One of the reasons I got into Ds is because of my need for control, and it codifies my inclinations towards this kind of behavior in a manner that feels safer for all parties.

For a tsundere character everything is about acceptance and trust.

IRL some closed-off lovers will NEVER open up. Even in fiction, I’m thinking about What Did You Eat Yesterday? or the dad in Restart After Come Back Home. These are kind of narratives about the tsundere not changing, but instead about their loved ones realizing that they simply express love differently (or not at all). There are quite a few Japanese dramas that deal with this idea. That you will simply have to live with this kind of personality never telling you they love you, merely showing you, in their very stunted way.

But IRL many a relationship has broken up because the closed-off person just never could get over their own baggage enough to open up and trust. So if you are in a relationship with one of these (or trying for one) you have to know when to cut your losses. You need to decide what you need from them and whether they can actually give that to you (knowing they WILL NOT CHANGE). This is also about protecting yourself and getting out. And timing wise? It’s going to be all about your tolerance levels. But if you’re experiencing any form of abuse or gas lighting, get out now. Also talk to people: friends, other lovers, professionals. If you have a friend of a similar personality type in your life ask them for their thoughts, just don’t fall into the trap of endlessly analyzing the tsundere’s motivation. They’re motivated by fear. You should protect yourself first, there are other fish in the sea. Or sky. (Just not that BL, please.)

Story wise?

The non-tsundere will admit affection/kiss etc. at about 1/2 through the narrative but the tsundere won’t come around until the last 1/4, in KBL usually not until the last ep.

3. Why does most of the "Tsundere" characters wait until the point where their lovers decide to leave them for good?

For dramatic effect.

4. Is it justified on the part of the "Tsundere Seme" to let someone continue pursuing them,..until they overcome their deep-rooted fears, or unwarranted insecurities?

I don’t know. Probubly not? But a narrative tsundere wouldn’t get into ANY kind of BL relationship if the other party didn’t do the pursuing (which is why tsundere is so often the uke character).

So the whole story wouldn’t happen at all. So under the context of narrative... it’s justified (because the narrative has to justify its own existence). However, if you, the watcher, feel manipulated? Then maybe not. Or maybe this just isn’t your archetype. Especially the seme version.

5. If the "Tsundere Seme" is sure of his own feelings,...what gives him the audacity to play with the feelings of someone that genuinely loves him?

I think most of the time he isn’t playing. Or he’s doing the manipulative thing to see if he has the control he needs to open up. Like I said above, it isn’t about love, it’s about trust (with a primary behavior motivation coming from fear). He’s waiting to see if he can TRUST the person, especially if he’s paired with a sunshine or manic pixie dream archetype (the most difficult ones to trust - because charming is very dangerous and reads as suspicious, overly flirty, and disingenuous to tsundere). And trust takes a lot more time than love.

6. Does the relationship dynamic change if the pursuer of a "Tsundere Seme" happens to be a "Power-Bottom Uke"?

Ooo, could we not use that term? I prefer self-actualized or aggressive or autonomous uke.

Yes, the dynamic does change. If the uke is self aware in his pursuit (Nampu in Top Secret or In in UWMA) and more aggressive (less of a good boy like Chon in Tonhon Cholatee) then we, the audience, trust that uke to cut his losses and protect himself in a way we don’t trust the good/sweet boy.

The relationship seems more fair and less abusive if an aggressive uke is in play. In other words, the nice-guy uke can be too much of a doormat with a tsundere seme and that reads very poorly to a modern audience, because we want to protect him (but that’s the seme’s job).

(source)

#bl tropes #bl archetypes #seme/uke #tsundere characters #thai bl #japanese bl #life love on the line #TonhonChonlatee #Until We Meet Again #Top Secret Together

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heretherebedork · 1 year

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Oh no I love Woo Jae so much. He is so desperately seeking peace and quiet and is slowly realizing he's never actually going to get it and he hates it so much. My darling boy. And the way everyone dismisses his concerns and his complaints because he's 'cold'? Oh, I love him even more. He's just trying to write his stories and lead a quiet life and no one lets him.

Oh no, this pairing is going to drive me mad. Because all Woo Jae wants is this quiet life and he's been working so hard to get it and he can't keep it and yes, he might actually be lonely, and yes he did a bad thing by leaving so suddenly but he's also been clear now and I just...

Oh, I relate to characters who prefer isolation a little too well, y'all.

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babyangelsky · 1 month

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BL Challenge 2k24 ✨Day 4✨

Hello and welcome to @negrowhat's 15 Day BL Challenge! Full challenge can be found here.

Favorite Ship Dynamic: Sensitive Seme + Tortured Uke

I would like to thank @absolutebl for perfectly phrasing this dynamic in this post because it's an absolute favorite of mine. I love seeing someone who's been through the wringer finally get taken care of and loved by someone who adores them, I eat it up every single time.

To quote them directly, this dynamic consists of: An older sensitive sweetheart sunshine seme and a tortured dark scared tsundere uke.

Some of my favorite examples of this are:

King and Uea in Bed Friend

♡ gif by @heretherebedork from this set

Alan and Jeff in Pit Babe

♡ gif by @firstmix from this set

Prapai and Sky in Love in the Air

♡ gif by @nooowestayandgetcaught from this set

Runner Up: Black Cat + Golden Retriever

This dynamic is a very close second for me so I'm including it. It's just so fun. It brings me so much joy to see an aloof black cat of a person be loved to within an inch of their life by their golden retriever boyfriend who has zero chill about loving them.

Some of my favorite examples of this are:

Punn and Ashi in Be Mine Superstar

♡ gif by @gunsatthaphan from this set

Li Cheng and Mu Ren in HIStory 4: Close to You

♡ gif by @gabrielokun from this set

Ye Chan and Seon Yul in Love Tractor

♡ gif by @hup123hup123slapslap from this set

#BLChallenge2k24 #kinguea #bed friend #alanjeff #pit babe #prapaisky #love in the air #punnashi #be mine superstar #li cheng x mu ren #history 4 close to you #ye chan x seon yul #love tractor

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olympeline · 4 months

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Now my Hetalia passion has flared up again to early 2010s levels I’m feeling the itch to get back into writing fanfiction…which I really shouldn’t because I’m so bad at finishing things unless they’re one-shots 😂

EITHER WAY I’ve got an idea for a FrUK fic where Arthur’s magic gets so fed up with his centuries of endless tsundere posturing that it rebels against him and starts showering Francis with embarrassing affection. Because magically powerful but inept wizard Arthur is always fun and “character A is in denial about their love for character B, but it comes out through their magic anyway” is a trope I LOVE

It starts small. Arthur tries to hand Francis a pen and it poofs into a red rose when it touches Francis’s fingers. Arthur is flustered but manages to brush it off (Arthur’s Death By Mortification level: 5%)

After a brief scuffle over who gets the last chair with padding (“HAHA SUCK IT, ASSTOWN FRENCHY!!” - the former nation of Prussia) Francis tears his favorite silk shirt. He bemoans it to Arthur…only to find it’s suddenly fixed itself. Arthur denies all responsibility and says France just made a mistake as usual. France is adamant he didn’t (Arthur’s DBM level: 15%)

Francis, already one of the world’s prime gourmets, invites the G7 to dinner and his cooking jumps up another notch to stratosphere levels after Arthur takes his first bite. Everyone notices (Arthur’s DBM level: 30%)

Whenever Arthur visits France the country is blessed by mild winters, springs that would stun a poet, glorious summers, and radiant autumns. Meteorologists are baffled but no one is complaining! Except Arthur. The UK meanwhile suffers constant dark, glowering skies and sulky storms (Arthur’s DBM level: 50%)

Francis and Arthur stroll through the French countryside, Francis points out a historical excavation sight, and oh look what do you know: they just happen to pull out some ancient treasure that will be a crown jewel of the Lourve. Francis ecstatic (perhaps it was even something he lost centuries ago). Arthur quickly excuses himself and runs home (Arthur’s DBM level: 70%)

Pre-meeting, Arthur overhears Francis sighing that the Italy brothers are a shoe-in to take the world prize for best cheese this year (because that’s a real contest that France and Italy have an annual slap fight over) since the French cheese makers have had a bad year. Only oh no they actually haven’t! Seems there was a late entry that blew the judges socks off and gets France another gold. Francis is ecstatic again…and getting a little suspicious by this point. Arthur hides in a closet and wishes nations could know the sweet release of death (Arthur’s DBM level: 85%)

Francis brings up the Olympics at a World Conference and Romano, still sore over the cheese, loudly remarks that of course France will top the medal board with England “helping” so much with his “fucking Harry Potter wizard BS.” Suddenly all eyes on Arthur, France included. Kill him. Kill him now (Arthur’s DBM level: about 5 million)

Arthur when he gets home: STOP FUCKING DOING THESE THINGS FUCK YOU

Arthur’s magic: Nah fuck you, man *Flips him off twice and gives Paris another tourism boost*

#Hetalia #fruk #my posts #fruk fanfiction #or at least a plan for one #fruk is so good #love me loads of hetalia ships but fruk takes gold #like france’s cheese lol #aph england #aph france

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recents · 1 year

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thinking again about togashi has repeatedly cited the 1970s BL action/comedy shoujo “patalliro!” as one of his biggest influences, which means that due to various similarities too specific to be ignored, we can infer, to the point where we pretty much know for a fact, that the inspiration for killua was maraich juschenfe, a canonically gay transfem-presenting tsundere jealous uke who was also raised from birth to be the perfect assassin and quits to date the protagonist. who gets pregnant despite the series going out of the way to tell us that shouldn’t be possible because he’s “biologically male” (it was the 70s).

twice. he gets mpreg twice.

you should really watch patalliro. you watch patalliro and youre like “oh, hunter x hunter is gay on purpose! okay!”

#.#when people reference togashi being a fudanshi/male BL fan its cause of how he talks about this series

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jemmo · 1 year

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utsukushii kare really said we’re going to take two of the most fascinating, interesting, well-characterised characters to have ever been written and not just stick them in the same show, but put them in one of the most incredible relationships to be seen on screen and i cannot thank them enough for it. seriously, if you consider the fact that at this point we’re at ep 8 of a 30 minute runtime show; that’s 4 hours. i’ve watched other bls, heck even other ordinary shows, that can’t even cram enough characterisation into a character that hira or kiyoi have in their little fingernail. im not joking. and nothing shows that better than kiyoi in this ep.

i love that we’re already getting an episode from his perspective. we had to wait all the way until ep 4 of season 1 to see things from his side, and that was such an amazing twist and reveal and still to this day that ep makes me cry. but im so glad we get to see his perspective sooner. bc we don’t need that shock twist anymore, instead it serves as a good balance to see where both our characters are at in the first 2 eps. and yet again, seeing things from kiyoi’s pov just opens up the absolute treasure trove that is his character. there are so many stand out points from this ep that i wanna mention but I’ll wait until my big ‘favourite parts of utsukushii kare s2 ep2’ post to list them all. what i wanna say here is that every bit of his character we get to see in this ep comes together so well to create such an interesting, multi-faceted and well-rounded character that it’s kind of astounding. we start off with his softness and vulnerability that’s countered perfectly against hira’s timid reaction, and then we jump back to high school to see this full on longing and the frustration that comes with that, waiting to be confessed to. i wanted to say this about the first season but this serves a good opportunity too; I find it so interesting how they portray hira and kiyoi’s ‘seme and uke’ dynamic (im gonna use those terms bc i can’t think of any better way to describe it, just know im referring more to a more dominant vs more submissive personality, like the confesser vs the confesse, and not anything sexual). You could so easily watch this show, hear the premise, even see the characters, hira and his chronic shyness, kiyoi and his undeniable popularity, and easily place those labels; hira the uke, kiyoi the seme. but in reality, kiyoi so clearly wants to be the uke, and very much is the uke. he begs in his head for hira to confess his feelings fo him, half bc maybe he needs hira to be brave where he can’t be, but I think also half bc he just wants to be confessed to. He wants the boy he likes to tell him he likes him, just like he wants to cuddle in his lap and be looked after. it probably stems from this want to be loved, chosen to be loved, and be cared for where he felt he wasn’t before, but it’s just so refreshing and such an interesting subversion of expectations, to see inside cool, popular kiyoi’s head and it’s just him begging for this shy, nobody kid to like him, and say it out loud.

and then I’ve touched on this before, but you get to see his earnest drive and passion to do what he loves. the cool kid that should fit the stereotype of never caring about anything, pushing to do the thing he loves, putting himself out there. I just can’t describe how excellent of a subversion that is. and the way he is with people at work, with Anna, polite and cordial and sweet, it’s such a reverse of kiyoi’s tsundere shortness and bluntness with hira that it not only shows us that yes, we weren’t hallucinating, there really is an infinite pool of softness within kiyoi that pours out more and more every time we see him, but also shows us that kiyoi is maybe only his true self with Hira. he’s not this polite, nice boy, nor is he this cool, cold popular guy, he’s somewhere in the middle, a fascinating mix of both, that only hira gets to see the full extent of, and I think that says a lot about how comfortable he is with Hira, and how much he trusts him. as much as it may be bad that hira will never find fault with kiyoi, it also makes him his sanctity, his true safe place, where he can breathe and grow and truly be whatever he wants, soft, angry, cute, cool, vulnerable, hira will take it all and adore it no matter what.

and then we get his jealousy of koyama, his protectiveness and possessiveness of hira. it’s kind of endearing how he still feels these things when hira shows him such endless devotion, it’s a testament to how normal he sees their relationship compared to hira, and how he therefore allows himself to feel normal relationship things, including possessiveness. but also in this scene i really love how kiyoi is let’s himself doubt himself, and only when it comes to hira. i feel like we’ve only ever seen him been unsure of himself when it comes to the things he loves, namely his dream of being a performer, and hira. he only looses confidence when he doesn’t do well in the competition in high school, and is only ever doubtful when it comes to hira’s feelings about him, and how he is with hira, maybe bc they’re the only things he truly wants to last forever. so what does he do, just like he does with his acting career? he puts in sincere effort. he humbles himself taking that recipe from koyama, and despite his cluelessness and clear lack of skills, he still tries his absolute hardest to do something for hira. he cooks him a meal, one of the most ordinary and sincere expressions of love. and his shy smile the whole time, him waiting excitedly for hira to come home, it’s such a fantastically endearing contrast from the cold, removed kiyoi we know early in s1 that you almost can’t reconcile them as the same character, and yet the steps that got us here make it clear that they are in fact the same person, that both those people live inside kiyoi and that’s amazing. and of course something as ordinary as cooking a meal for your boyfriend can never be normal for hira and kiyoi but the chaos unfolds is what makes them absolutely them. it mirrors what kiyoi says at the start of the ep about Hira, ‘if it wasn’t disgusting, it wouldn’t be hira’. It’s the same for kiyoi, and the same for their relationship. they don’t want to change it fundamentally, don’t want to take away the things that make it them, they just want to find a way to take this thing they both want and love and build it, strengthen it, so it can last. and i’ll say it until I’m blue in the face, but that’s why kiyoi’s personality, his bluntness, works so well for hira. it provides this iron wall of reassurance based in truth that he needs. I think ‘im not dating a pebble’ might be my stand out line from a bl in 2023 already but it’s also so ridiculously laced in meaning. Kiyoi doesn’t see hira as just some rock, some insignificant thing on the side of the road, that’s not what he’s dating. He’s dating hira, the person. And I think this push for hira to see himself as a person is only something that kiyoi can do because, in a way, hira was the one to see Kiyoi first. I’m a different way, because of the complex hira still has around kiyoi, he may not be a person yet, but hira still saw him in a way no one else did because he cared enough to look and keep looking. He stared and stared at every bit of kiyoi, including the uncool parts, the embarrassing parts, the sweet parts, the upset and angry parts, he’s the one that saw it all and never once looked away. The invisible kid made him feel seen. And I think for someone that’s always looked at but never seen, that’s what you really want.

So yes, this may have collapsed into another ramble, but I hope I can just convey some of the sense of how whole of a character kiyoi feels, even just by the points in this ep. And I just love that he’s allowed to be it all, be chaotic and messy and imperfect and a work in progress while still helping hira along too. I’ve never seen a bl couple that feel so much like they’re growing together, figuring themselves out as people and as a couple and it’s just so fucking refreshing and interesting and beautiful to watch and i will never ever shut up about it

#here’s your weekly ‘im so in love with utsukushii kare it’s unreal’ rant #and I call this the kiyoi edition #seriously he’s my favourite character in anything ever #and I would do anything literally anything to see him happy #oh god im down so bad #utsukushii kare #utsukushii kare 2 #my beautiful man #my beautiful man 2

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