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iceglade · 4 years

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i made a thread on twitter about this but i've been thinking about vanilla vs royal i cant handle how happy i am that royal has made ppl like akechi more, not just for "hes hot" reasons bc ppl love that but winning over reddit* folks who dislike many fanon takes for being too wooby,

not that i particularly care for Wooby bc ive been in fandom for ages and i like seeing ppl happy - i know theres a certain degree of allowance when it comes to twisting canon characterization for content, because you're the content creator, its in your hands and cmon-

but especially with royal i think akechi's serious edge "won over a lot of people" who can now respect him for how he approached refusing the dream world, i think thats something they can understand and appreciate - ESPECIALLY when a lot of ppl's beef with vanilla akechi was "daddy doesnt love me boo hoo" which is a GROSS misunderstanding/simplification of his EXTREMELY complex character, which was barely covered or etc bc of vanilla's horrid writing -- over all! its not JUST him - BUT, royal provided such a good opportunity to show off akechi's character, through giving him more screentime and VERY IMPORTANTLY: Plot Relevance like how, say mementos mission shows off joker's need to be helpful bc hes a deep-feeling person, or scramble showing off haru and makoto and the other thieves by drawing them against the new characters to compare and contrast and give them Time to BE, - royal gave akechi time to recover from the frankly AWFUL vanilla narrative decision to shoot and shove him off like chopped liver and never mention him again, so that many ppl's impression of akechi goro was of an incomprehensible, annoying character who blew up and then acted like he dont knowww know bodaay haghnaghnahgna

i joke but SERIOUSLY a bad first AND last impression, REALLY...

ahh. im just surprised !! every time someone says they like him or that they disliked him earlier but dont post-royal or etc etc it always takes me by surprise even after all this time !! it makes me very happy -though even as i focus on how happy i am that people like his character, even streamers talking about his ass (what ass... ... cindy thats bone) or etc- i shouldnt, but i still count it as a sort of win because my standards are so low ;-;.. i dont like sexualizing characters (of any gender or sexuality, dont worry ^-^'') but the point of it all is that the amount of stannery is .. stunning i think, from all ends of the fandom, when i think about how nervous vanilla felt to me. if im wording this all right.

-- that being said. obviously there are ppl who still dont like him, VEHEMENTLY, and everyone gets so passionate about him and everything that tension and fights erupt very very quickly - it makes me wonder what about royal didnt hit with them, but hit with other people, in a Genuinely Curious kind of way. not that im not suuper passionate about goroboying, because, i am !! royal makes me very happy and i stay out of fights as best as i can because i know, ACUTELY, how PAINFUL it is to have a hyperfixation broken. nauseous furious shaking heart aching - its heartbreak !! i'd rather die before i inflicted a pain like that on someone. + id rather remember something for the love i felt for it than the harm.

(though while i'm here, people who were in the "# p5r spoilers" tag remember what happened a little while ago shortly after royal jpn came out , though that's for a whole other post about the fascinating history/sociology of that particular event, 👁✨)

- its not about me having to choose between a lesser of two evils. thats not my point

no matter how intensely my heart is in it, i want to be able to say that you can feel how you feel about characters, though any misinformation sits badly with me in hyperfixation hell. funnily enough, while back on the topic of Agency, which goro is in some dire need of - which may be the root of why so many femme-presenting folk or lesbians are fond of him, + respecting women + sex workers + etc GORO AKECHI CAN BE SOMEONE SO PERSONAL ACTUALLY-

* - oh, backreading my own post - i didnt mean to specify redditors as if they're the only ppl i'm talking about, but it was the first to come to mind ; i'm just thinking a lot about how it seems like people really like the light royal was able to display him in, both as a delightfully entertaining UNHINGED EDGELORD and a very focused, goal-oriented, respectable ally, to the point that people are MUCH more open about how much they love him nowadays, which does bring me no end of joy - its no surprise that the new appreciation, as well as atlus ... highlighting ..... aspects ...... of blask ...... and the new content, of course the fandom treats him like this, - thats fandom. this is how people do i suppose. from a witness' viewpoint. hdngngm

i see all i know all 👁 i will keep all of my opinions right here and then one day i will die. but. i'll be honest. despite everything. im actually really happy.

#don't mind me #persona 5 #p5r spoilers #i mean to post more here ! the app is just slow and saddening #oops! left out 5 tweets. edited in now

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ardenttheories · 5 years

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I covered the first point in the original post here.

Dave’s voice often starts off within the narrative. For some reason, almost all of his iconic phrases start as something that’s read in the narrative text - moreso than any other character. It’s almost always word-for-word, which we never see elsewhere in a similar manner.

So Dave’s influenced by narrative voices a lot more than any other character. The fact that he also speaks AR’s words shows that he is affected by it; in the same situation, John talks to WV as if a haze has come over his mind. Dave, on the other hand, repeats AR’s text - which is directed to him, and not a command, the same way WV asks John for a can opener.

So something weird definitely happens there. Something that doesn’t quite add up when you really think about it. He’s affected by narrative voices but still stunned by them; when it’s purely narrative, he doesn’t even seem to recognise what’s going on, but when it’s influenced (by AR, or by Dirk), he seems to be much more aware that something weird is happening, yet doesn’t link it to anything in particular. In both AR and Dirk’s narratives, he assumes he’s just having weird thoughts and odd actions - even though, in AR’s case, he’s literally been told that Exiles are a thing.

He’s so used to the narrative that he doesn’t subconsciously recognise that AR’s text isn’t meant to be spoken out loud.

As for why Dave might be able to recognise yet not be wholly aware of the narrative:

I think there’s definitely some merit to the idea that Dave’s more confusingly affected by Exiles because of their position within the narrative. They, in all technicality, are at the End of their journeys - and symbolise the End of the universe that had originally been to full of life.

But I would suggest in this case, isn’t he being exploited by AR more than he is exploiting AR? He still seems, in this situation, so ignorant to what’s going on, even though - once again - he’s been actively told that his Exile is communicating with him. He’s aware but unaware in the dumbest way.

It definitely might be that he can subconsciously use it again later, but I’m not wholly sure. I can’t think of a point where he uses this information again. The Exiles don’t become exactly relevant at any point after the first few acts, except for WV and PM, who Dave doesn’t interact with a whole lot. And it’s not like he gets into the whole idea of the command consoles, either?

You also mentioned in another post something about Dead Daves - the concept that maybe, I assume, some of the narrative is provided by Daves that have already done these things? Which would make a lot of sense. Daves exploiting the narrative to talk to this past Dave and ensure he stays on track with the Alpha Timeline - the same way that Aradia becomes the voice of the dead that whispers to herself and guides her throughout the timeline. My only issue with that would be that we don’t actually see that in canon, I think.

Unless we say that when Dave repeats his iconic lines - such as the apple juice one - it’s just another Dave remembering he said that and ensuring past-Dave says it?

Going onto the concept of Time within the narrative:

I went into that here, but I’ll go over it again in brief.

Time isn’t the narrative. It is heavily related to the timeline, the past and the future, but it is entirely in-universe. Characters that host the Time aspect don’t go into it the same way a Light player does - with the concept of the plot and of this storyline they have to follow. I believe at one point when talking to Rose, Dave even calls this concept bullshit as it just makes them seem like characters in a story (which they are, which shows that Dave doesn’t recongise the narrative as a real, physical thing).

Within the narrative, Time represents the End of the story. Space is the Beginning, Life is the Rising Action, Doom is the Falling Action, and Time is the Conclusion.

This is why, as I explain in the linked post, Caliborn can take control of the narrative - at the end of the story, to create a timeline that prematurely concludes Homestuck.

I know exactly what part of the comic you’re also referencing when it comes to Caliborn being aware of the narrative, and having remembered it, I want to point something out:

Caliborn isn’t aware that it’s the narrative, either. The narrator goes back and forth with him on it, and he ultimately ignores it. It goes something like this.

“You don't have time for fancy poetry. It's almost as useless as having your thoughts dictated to you, assuming you were even aware of that happening, which you definitely aren't. Cherubs aren't prone to that kind of self awareness. No way, absolutely not. Yes, you believe that thought. The one you had just now, by your own volition, and now it's true reality. See? Yes, you agree totally with that thought you had.

You stew in your own quasi-lucid hostility as you think this very thought. The one right here, that feels like it's being dictated to you, you think. You think it feels that way, so you guess it's true. But we previously agreed that you were the sole author of your own thoughts, didn't we? That's the thought you should be thinking, and more importantly, believing in as hard as you can, thus slightly reducing its stubborn fakeness attribute. You then think the word, HUH? That doesn't sound like a thought you would have, you think to yourself thoughtfully. What the fuck? But seriously, you've got to stop this. If you keep thinking thoughts like this, you'll probably start going crazy.”

He seems to notice something. The narrative asks what he’s looking at, which leads to this whole internal conversation.

Caliborn is in a similar boat to Dave, but maybe a bit more aware? He almost attains awareness, but can’t place what it is. The concept that his thoughts aren’t his, but must be his, but then ultimately are disregarded once the narrator forces him to move on from the concept entirely - it’s definitely a very similar thing to Dave. Almost identical, except for the fact that, once again, it’s entirely internal.

Even Caliborn doesn’t have that moment of speaking out the narrative. He’s aware that there are thoughts that aren’t his, but he doesn’t seem to go to the point where he speaks things out and then questions why he says them. His physical conversations are entirely his own.

And then his only ability to talk directly to Hussie comes from the command console. Everything that comes after this is because he’s taken control of the device that writes the Ending.

That’s the bit that makes this unique to Dave, I think. Caliborn might have minor narrative awareness in this one scene, but it’s directly before he finds a device that draws him into the narrative. Questionably, we could say that being within reach of this device allows him to hear Hussie’s voice more clearly - especially since we don’t see this happening with either Aradia or Damara (albeit we don’t see much of the latter at all).

It’s once he gets his hands on the device that he actively argues with Hussie’s development of his character, after all.

I think, instead of metaphysical, I should have made the distinction between in-universe and out-of-universe.

Time, while it can be influenced by or influence the narrative, is focused solely in the concept of the in-universe. What Caliborn does is essentially change the timeline for his own benefit, and crafts his own story - not through his own powers, but through the powers of an external device. It’s not like he uses this to create a novel that’ll take him out of the core of Homestuck and make him more than just a character - he uses it exclusively to affect the timeline they’re already in.

Out-of-universe means anything that goes beyond the actual Homestuck universe. So, Dirk talking directly to us, being aware that we’re an audience that’s outside of the realm of his reality - that’s out-of-universe. That’s interacting with our world rather than solely influencing what happens to the timeline.

Even when Caliborn is the author, he’s still... vulnerable. He’s still wholly connected to the timeline, to being punched in the face by John, to things taking him by surprise. He’s still not the author - the real world Andrew Hussie - and the person he talks to in the narrative isn’t real-world Andrew.

There’s definite merit to the theory, but there’s also other factors to explain why Caliborn might be able to affect the narrative and be aware of it - the same way there’s reasons why Heart and Light and Space can influence the narrative without it being an actual part of the Aspect itself.

Basically, I wouldn’t say “the narrative” is a part of Time as the Aspect description itself, but I would say “Time players can affect or be affected by the narrative when in relation to their Aspect”.

As for the scene with Aradia, no. The section I think you’re referring to is the one wherein Calliope explains how the narrative works and what it is - essentially telling Aradia that it exists.

On page 40 of Candy:

JADE: to establish an extremely short narrative for certain illustrative purposes.

JADE: i’m going to repeat your story to you, and i want you to listen carefully.

JADE: a martyr died and said fuck.

ARADIA: ok i listened

ARADIA: thats definitely the short story i just said

JADE: yes.

JADE: now i’m going to repeat the story, but change the way i say it very slightly.

JADE: listen again carefully.

ARADIA: ...

JADE: a martyr died and said fuck.

ARADIA: hmm

ARADIA: yes that was a little different

ARADIA: im not sure that i could describe how though it was pretty subtle

And a bit further down:

JADE: a martyr died and said fuck.

JADE: his final howl of profanity reverberated through the ages.

JADE: it inspired his devotees during the darkest times of a brutal regime.

JADE: his lessons were guarded, kept secret, espoused in the shadows of tyranny.

JADE: a vision of peace would inspire those who’d never conceived of it.

JADE: and though his death was gruesome, it opened the world to a feeling of hope.

JADE: this hope echoed through the ages.

JADE: it gave his disciples the strength to persist as they perished in droves.

JADE: it was the only light to shine on a dark planet for millions of sweeps.

JADE: and if you are one so devoted to his teachings, who sees truth in his words,

JADE: it may be said with great authority that you are wrong.

JADE: you are foolish to believe his lies. his martyrdom is false, his sacrifice hollow.

JADE: repent for your adherence to this illusion now, and perhaps leniency will be your reward.

ARADIA: 0_0

ARADIA: what just happened there

JADE: i brought to your attention that the story you were listening to had a speaker with a specific identity.

JADE: and where there is an identity, there can also be an agenda.

So it’s our Space player, the one that’s actively influencing the narrative, explaining it to our Time player - thereby showing that Aradia had no prior knowledge of the narrative. So it can’t be a wholly Time-related thing to have a connection to the narrative, otherwise Aradia wouldn’t have been surprised in this section.

As I said; Time’s effects with the narrative seem wholly more in-universe. They don’t seem to be aware of the wider narrative as a whole, so much as they’re influencing the timeline - the series of events - itself.

It’s the difference between going back in time to stop yourself from eating some cereal, and writing into the story that you ate an apple instead. One is a physical action; the other is a metaphysical edit.

This is why I think Dave must be influenced by something other than his Aspect. I get the idea that, maybe, his ability to hear the narrative (but his struggle to recognise what it is) isn’t meant to be something he’s aware of - the same way Caliborn isn’t meant to be aware of it until he’s in the presence of the narrative control panel. It’s also why he struggles with meta concepts as actual fact - such as the Exiles, the idea of “becoming someone”, the fact that his E-bubbles have a much more metaphysical effect than he recongises or even intended.

Additionally, as a posited question more than set fact: Is the character of Hussie dead by the time narrator-Hussie talks to Caliborn within the narrative, as I showed above? Because that could very easily explain why he can hear him; if Hussie is Dead, then that falls naturally within the realm of Time, and as the Lord of Time (albeit a Failed one), Caliborn could hear him better.

#ardenttheories #long post//

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