#that is of course something of a secular perspective but isn't that the win win? if you win then great she's ahead of everyone | Explore Tumblr Posts and Blogs

fideidefenswhore · 1 year

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How do we know that COA was offered her daughter made bona fides and kept princess? When was this?

It was an offer made by Henry alongside Campeggio when he was there before the trial, that her acceptance of the offer meant the trial could be foregone ....

We (Wolsey and Campeggio) are agreed in opinion to test the mind of the Queen, and to persuade her to consent to the separation, and to enter the profession of some religion. For this purpose his Lordship promised me the assistance of himself and all the prelates of the kingdom, and the favor of the King, and that the Queen shall have any honorable conditions which she demands, retain her station as Queen*, and not lose anything except "l'uso della persona del Re," which he (Wolsey) says she has lost for many years; allowing her her dowry, rents, ornaments, and assignments for her support, and many other things; especially that the succession of the kingdom for the present shall be established in her daughter, by the ordinance and consent of all the estates, in case there should never be any legitimate male heir.

....(although, actually I don't exactly remember, that might have just been one stage of the offer...another might have been that her absence from the trial would ensure a result in Henry's favor; as we know she refused to attend after her speech and it did not, so whether or not that was true...Campeggio had a decretal comission to declare the marriage valid or invalid at Blackfriars and didn't, so in some sense they both got played, although Catherine only in hindsight...ironically, she would later vehemently complain about the severe injustice of the delay in any resolution, but she was the one that had interceded for that delay**, demanding the case only be tried in Rome). Even her counsel at the time, before becoming as contumacious as he did (Bishop Fisher), advised her to take this 'deal', as it were. Off the cuff, I don't remember every reference made to it, Chapuys some months later does also mention (very conditional) 'offers' made to her, but the dispatch is frustratingly vague:

Meanwhile the Queen is daily assailed by people making her all manner of offers, if she will only consent to the divorce; but she remains as firm as ever [...]

In 1533 Chapuys reports Catherine as having said she was willing to take the 'offer' made to her by the King's council three years ago, that then she had thought it was a feint to induce her to accept demotion, but she would accept it now. He does not specify what this offer was, I remember I went back to the sources of when Henry's council visited and argued with her and it was not clear then, either, but I always wondered if that was what she was alluding to. If so it was too late at that point; Henry had decided that the issue of any union that contravened divine law was irrevocably illegitimate (although technically, he would not manage to garner Parliamentary assent for this notion until three years later, he only managed it by implication in 1534), and he believed that was what it was.

Often apologia of Catherine's stance in the late 1520s has been, why should she have even considered that inducement, how was it even presented as an 'offer', even if the papacy had annulled the marriage, Mary would be bona fides regardless, etc. It was presented as an offer, inducement, compromise of sorts because in England that was not the legal precedent (ie, an offer made on behalf of her daughter that was not guaranteed otherwise):

"[Henry VIII] now argued she would would be barred by illegitimacy. This contention puzzled continental contemporaries because elsewhere in western Europe those children born to couples who in good faith believed themselves validly married were treated as legitimate. Nevertheless, Henry was right. After a period of some uncertainty, by the late fourteenth century England had opted out of the bona fides principle. As Sir John Baker notes, 'succession problems were usually debated in legal terms and in accordance with the common law canons of inheritance.' A successful challenge to his marriage would thus automatically bastardise Mary and leave Henry no direct heir... [although] Mary could have been legitimated by statute." - JF Hadwin, The Journal of Ecclesiastical History

*One assumes this meant only a ceremonial title of some sort, ie Dowager Queen of England, as her sister-in-law was still referred to as Queen of France.

**Probably not anticipating resolution would not take place for another four years, but...still.

#anon #so...i think the answer has to be that catherine believed she would win #and she was vindicated although this was something of a pyrrhic victory for her own lifetime #and beyond it if we are considering 1536-52 #or maybe she was not aware of this precedent which doesn't speak very highly of her advisors #her stans kind of want it both ways in a lot of aspects of the GM which is sort of like...#well either she was ignorant of certain things or knew them and decided to take the gamble #which presents a bit of an either/or with the Genius of the Tudor Court versus Devoted Mother Above All except for them it has to be both #the pragmatic solution would have been to put henry to oath with witnesses that mary would be first in succession after any sons #by subsequent marriage... in exchange for her agreement #to either enter convent (although as the article i quoted argues that wouldn't have really been an entire solution in and of itself) or #to tell charles v not to interfere and let the matter run its course in the courts #that is of course something of a secular perspective but isn't that the win win? if you win then great she's ahead of everyone #if you don't at least there's the chance for the throne #this was basically what did end up happening with the caveat that she was still illegitimate but at that point it had nothing to do w/ coa #more like in spite of her #royal retirement also /= an admission of sin; people seem to have really minimal historic literacy on this subject...#charles v retired to a monastery in 1556.#although traditionally it was for royal widows #(catherine of valois; eleanor of provence; elizabeth woodville...)#there might have been the crux of her moral opposition.#henry insisted she was arthur's widow; catherine insisted she was not

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rynnaaurelius · 1 year

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I've been deeply unwell about Andor for the last month and a half, and I keep thinking about Nemik's "Remember this: Try." from the finale and its response to Yoda from Episode Five.

In the greater cultural consciousness, that line is taken as a "You either do it or not," as a sort of "Ignore those doubts and suck it up, buttercup, you're gonna do it," and Nemik's line is taken as a rebuke to that, and I think there's validity to that, I do, particularly considering Maarva's speech about how it might be too late, but she'll fight anyway, and the general interpretation of Star Wars when you're not on Tumblr, but also--

In Empire Strikes Back, Yoda says it to Luke because he doesn't believe. He doesn't believe that he can lift the X-Wing, he thinks it's impossible, and says that he'll try in the same way an atheist goes to church.

And Yoda. Yoda tells him to do. Because Yoda is a Jedi, Yoda believes. And he does it, and it's incredible, and at the end, Luke says:

"I don't believe it."

"And that is why you fail."

It's not a matter of strength of will. It's a matter of faith in what you do, something that Star Wars champions from the start. To close your eyes, damn rational thought, and make that leap, to destroy the Death Star, to have faith in your father, in the Chosen One, in your friends, regardless of what your eyes tell you about failure.

It's been in the fabric of Star Wars for decades.

And then we have Nemik. Nemik, who is called the "true believer" by Skeen. Nemik, who encourages the galaxy to try, who has his faith, who calls Cassian, who believes in no greater ideal when they meet, "my ideal reader."

And it's important, I think, to remember the role the Jedi played in the galaxy, both from an in-universe perspective and that of the story itself. They were peacekeepers and guardians, fighting the ultimate bad guys and trying to do good in the galaxy.

They were superheroes. Upholding justice and compassion and democracy and all that good stuff against the darkness.

But the darkness won. The Sith won. The Jedi were wiped out so completely that they and the Force are little more than obscure rumor by the time of Andor.

And with them went that faith--and I mean faith in a mostly secular way, I think. The belief that good trumps evil, that there is a better world to defend, that kindness will bring reward instead of pain.

The Jedi eventually win, of course. Luke Skywalker comes along with destiny and the Force and a ghost mentor and all that entails to make him believe that there is good in Vader.

But--this isn't A New Hope. Cassian Andor is not the son of a Jedi, with a laser sword and Jedi Master to train him in higher ideals and superpowers as he completes the Hero's Journey and saves the galaxy. This is Andor, and everyone on this show is just trying to survive the Empire they live under and not get killed by a trigger-happy Imperial schmuck.

Without the Force, without that faith in a galactic battle between Light and Dark, with just fascism's boot on your throat, one among millions, how do you believe that anything could be good again? That there's a good worth fighting for, when it's mud and death and desperation?

Without a destiny and Chosen Ones and the Force and ghostly mentors, how do you believe in the ability to win against the darkness? How do you recover that faith when it and its protectors have been wiped out from the galaxy?

And Nemik, who is no Luke Skywalker, who is going to die within days of meeting a disbelieving Cassian Andor, who has likely never heard the word Jedi, or seen how fear made one man destroy the Republic, or has the comfort of an all-consuming magical Force to lean on when people keep suffering:

There will be times when the struggle seems impossible. Freedom is a pure idea. Oppression is the mask of fear. One single thing will break the siege. Remember this.

Try.

#star wars #andor #karis nemik #cassian andor #jedi #yoda #thinking about the matter of faith #and how that's really what it always comes down to #also thinking about how yoda had no faith in vader to turn back after order 66 #and luke had nothing but belief the whole way

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