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marveltaughtmetoread · 1 year

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The part that messes with me the most about the Jedi's approach to Anakin their complaint that he was too old

If a literal child is too old for your cult, I don't know what you're doing but it is nothing good

How can you expect me to believe that things you can only learn at a young age, when you don't have enough life experience to challenge it are in anyway good

How can you expect me to believe that a healthy mental state is one that requires you to have no other mindset, and no knowledge to challenge your teaching because they Jedi don't get to leave, unless they leave for good

They genuinely have no knowledge to question their experience, is this not terrifying

How can you expect me to believe this isn't indoctrination when it requires you to be so young as to be completely impressionable and at the mercy of adults who control everything around you

You are never too old and never too damaged to get better, not in the real world, not when it comes to sustainable ways to improve your mental wellbeing

Yes it is easier if your foundation is already built but you can still build a foundation from broken rocks, it will just take more effort

But somehow Anakin was both too old and too damaged for the Jedi

Something is wrong and I don't think it was with Anakin

#anakin skywalker #the fall of anakin skywalker #star wars prequels #star wars #jedi critical #anti jedi #anti jedi order #anti jedi code #star wars meta #star wars discourse #star wars preqel era #star wars the clone wars #star wars clone wars #clone wars #sw tcw #sw prequels #Vina rants

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marveltaughtmetoread · 1 year

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The Jedi aren't impartial they're just too removed to care

Their complete lack of attachment and lack of interaction with the rest of the galaxy is problematic as hell when they're meant to be the peace keepers of it

It's fine for monks in a temple to live separate from the world, dedicating their life to their beliefs and pursuit of peace, because not knowing about the world doesn't matter when you have nothing to do with it

It's completely different when you are meant to interact with it and make decisions that impact it

This is actually pretty well exemplified with Obi Wan, he's arrogant in his dealings with the world, assuming he knows the right way to do it, having limited experience with the world, mainly contained to the Republic, the politicians who always have ulterior motives for everything (even if their ulterior motive is benevolent), and being on the front lines which are far from normal circumstances

The Jedi don't know the galaxy as they should if they want to make decisions for it

You need a broad perspective to know what will help and the majority of the Jedi just don't

What's worse is their impartiality is the same as being centrist

Deciding to be impartial when people's lives are literally being sacrificed and others are being oppressed is the same as allowing it to occur

The Jedi overlook slavery because they have decided it is not worth their time and resources to try and end it

In what world is that not awful

In what world is their impartiality not the same as having picked the side of the oppressors

Even when they get involved it is in a galaxy wide war, they side with the Republic in a fight when the Republic are actively trying to take down the people who just wanted to leave because they think the Republic, rightly, has become too corrupted on their power (something the show and movies are only able to demonise by having the sith manipulate the Separatists and be behind everything, in the real world we would call the Republic the oppressors for doing that)

The Jedi aren't impartial they're just so high on their privilege they think they have a right to make decisions for those beneath them in the social hierarchy because they think their privilege gives them the ability to decide

In the real world, we recognise that as a problem but suddenly when it's fictional we idolise them for it

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marveltaughtmetoread · 1 year

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So I just saw a post which was an AU of what if the clones didn't have a chip but we're just trained to be undercover so knew they were out to destroy the Jedi from the start because the Jedi were bad, but they slowly started to realise maybe the Jedi weren't bad

And there are three main issues with that

First, the clones wouldn't realise the Jedi are good guys and come around to them cause they're not

Second, you think Palpatine is gonna leave destroying the Jedi up to free will

Thirdly, why would being exposed to the outside world, with free will, not lead all clones to abandon both Palpatine and the Jedi

The Jedi were not good to the clones

There is a point to be made about how the Jedi weren't good to the subjects of the Republic but these aren't the subjects of the Republic, these are clone troopers, purpose made for war, essentially slaves

I have already gone on a rant about the flaws with using slaves in general

But I can also go on one about how there are clear signs that the Jedi, specifically when it comes to the clones, do not care about them

Obi Wan is his own post, which I haven't made yet but intend to, so we are not talking about him

You can see from the clones interactions with Plo that they aren't treated well, there is a reason they favour him and you can tell from the fact that Anakin is the outlier that they really aren't treated well

In his interactions with the clones, Plo is the typical level of reserved that all Jedi are also its own separate rant but what's unusual to the clones about Plo is that he tries to save them

In one of the first episodes we get with Plo, he and his clones are stranded in space, waiting for death, and the clones are surprised at the efforts he does to save them

You can tell from the way they respond, the resignation clear in it, that they were expecting him to abandon them because that's what they were used to, that's what happens to clones

And I am sure people are already going to point to the episode where the clones are used as canon fodder and the consequences the Jedi who treats them as such faces for it, as proof that well clearly the Jedi wouldn't abandon their clones, clearly the clones are treated well because a Jedi using them as canon fodder was called out so doesn't this prove that Plo's actions weren't unusual and the clones had no basis to believe they would be abandoned

Which first of all, there is a world of difference between canon fodder and being resigned to being abandoned, it's one thing to send people to their deaths (wasting resources) and abandoning someone once they have fulfilled their mission

Which is proved by the fact that there was consequences for using them as canon fodder but none for abandoning the clones

The clones had every reason to be resigned to being abandoned because they would have been had Plo not stuck with them and Anakin not disobeyed orders to save them

Let's remember Anakin disobeyed orders to save Plo and the small contingency of clones left

Which yes, it might have been dangerous to go and save them and Plo was also left to die with them, but do you seriously think that makes it better, do you seriously think the clones wouldn't have come to resent the Jedi who sent them to die in a war and then abandoned them when the cost to save an entire fleets lives was seen as too high

Secondly, the only reason the Jedi who used clones as canon fodder and was a terrible leader was ever called out was because he did it to Anakin's clones, he had already done it before, this wasn't his first time treating clones this way, it was just the first time the clones resisted and fought back

And it is significant that it happened with Anakin's clones, Anakin who is a bad Jedi, an outlier, who is always meant to be read as going against what a Jedi should do

Yet it is he who saw his clones as people, interacted with them, joked with them, had their trust

It is significant that he is the one who ended up with clones that resisted Jedi orders, who outright disobeyed them, and who overthrow the Jedi

All things clones aren't meant to do (because their slaves trained to only obey and fight), all things Anakin would have done, which rather obviously implies the corrupted Jedi would never have faced consequences if he hadn't been given command of a force as rebellious as their true general

And there were likely more Jedi like this, ones that we don't see and likely wouldn't have been called out

So, even ignoring the clones status as slaves, the Jedi seem uncaring and oblivious to the plight of their clone army, abandoning them when it no longer suits the Jedi to save them, and oblivious to the abuse of their clones, because there is no system to check the power of the Jedi with a slave army

In what world would the small acts of kindness, such as acknowledging their individuality, be enough to undue the resentment built up by being treated as disposable war machines

Especially when desertion is punished, so they have literally no choice but to fight in a war they didn't want to

The Jedi would not have been the good guys in their eyes, there is just no way leaders who treat their army like that, would have been liked if the clones had a choice

Palpatine ain't allowing free will

This is a man who groomed Anakin for the dark side, who even knowing he was already falling, decided to manipulate him into finally becoming a Sith, who then punished him for falling to defeat Obi Wan by giving him a suit which didn't restore him to the full strength he could have gotten

A man who so meticulously planned the fall of the Republic and the Jedi for over a decade, even before the Prequels began

And you think he is leaving his final triumph up to the free will of a disposable army

Hell no, they are being implanted with chips no matter what for Palpatine to stay in character

The Clones aren't choosing to get into a fight if they have a choice

If the clones had free will, why would they choose to continue fighting for an Order that barely cares for them and a leader who is actually evil

Why wouldn't they all, with their own individuality, choose different paths

We have an example of a clone deserting and starting a family, even with the indoctrination of being raised as a clone and the chip in his brain so why wouldn't more clones, in a world without the chip, follow his lead

Why would they stick with the Jedi who lead them to their deaths for a cause that has genuinely nothing to do with them

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marveltaughtmetoread · 1 year

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One thing I always struggle with when it comes to Jedi defenders is that they view the Jedi attitude towards attachment as commendable

They define it as being able to hold onto something but be able to let it go easily, to be able to care about something and let it drift away without disturbing your peace in any meaningful way

They care about it but they can let it go because they weren't holding on to it too tight, which is, in the defenders view, the ideal form of attachment

And that's bull

Nothing I care about has been easy to let go

Even with things I did let go because it was the right decision, I've still been in pain over it

The people I care the most about are a hundred miles away from me and creating seperate lives without me, and I am happy for them but I mourn what has been,

I care about them enough to let them move on but I am still attached to them and in theory that is what Jedi attachment could be, caring about something without destroying it or yourself, for leaving, being upset without allowing the grief to consume you

But it's not

The Jedi see 'negative' emotions, such as grief as a bad thing, so even meaningful grief over letting go would be a failure to the Jedi, your grief has to be brief and easy to move on from, otherwise you were too attached

And this is best exemplified to me in the episode where Barriss and Ashoka are buried under rocks on Genosis

Luminara mourns her Padawan, very slightly (I have cared more about breaking a bowl but that might just be how she processes grief) but she's ready to move on

Anakin is angry and unwilling to move on, in denial over the loss of Ashoka, and by nature of it being Anakin, we are clearly meant to see Luminara as the exemplar of how Jedi handle grief

But Luminara is wrong, her Padawan is still alive and her willingness to accept Barriss as a lost cause would have directly led to Barriss dying

It is Anakin's unwillingness to follow suit that saves their Padawans' lives

In a situation where both of them could feel their Padawans' in the force, so could reasonably expected to know they're alive, Luminara gave up the moment they were buried

That's not attachment, that's not caring

I would hope a random stranger cared about me more than that, let alone the people I care about

The Jedi approach to attachment doesn't work because if you genuinely care about something it's loss affects you, you are emotionally distressed because you cared, if you didn't care you would be fine but then you wouldn't have been attached

I wasn't joking when I have been more upset about breaking a bowl than Luminara was over the loss of Barriss

I cared more about an inanimate object than the Jedi do over a living breathing being

What does that say about the people who are supposed to be looking after an entire galaxy

#it's exemplified by the Jedi's attatitude to Anakin giving a damn about his mother but that's a whole different post #anti jedi code #anti jedi #anti jedi order #jedi attachment #jedi order #jedi are flawed as hell #star wars prequels #star wars preqel era #star wars clone wars #star wars #star wars tcw #star wars the clone wars #jedi critical #star wars meta #jedi discourse #star wars discourse #Vina rants

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marveltaughtmetoread · 2 years

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Anakin's fears are very valid and very circumstance based, he is afraid for the safety of his mother because his mother is in a precarious situation, but the Jedi do not know how to deal with that, they basically invalidate his feelings, telling him it is wrong to feel anger and fear at all because they lead directly to the dark side

Which is why he is so drawn to Padme and Palpatine, Padme comforts and accepts him no matter what he does, something he won't get from the Temple, whilst Palpatine tells him, he is special, he is worth something and agrees with everything he does, encouraging him to reach further heights, both of which are examples of enabling behaviour and too far in the other direction

But what Anakin needed most was to talk through his issues and be told it was okay to feel this way, to be told his issues were real, it wasn't him who was at fault and nobody did that

Padme accepted him without ever challenging his unhealthy feelings, her love was way too unconditional, Palpatine actively encouraged him to lean into his negative emotions, and the only thing the Jedi did was tell him he was wrong for feeling emotions

His only options were to repress his emotions entirely or lean in completely so of course he fell

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marveltaughtmetoread · 2 years

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So I once saw a post talking about reading comprehension and how different people read a story, how many only tend to look at the surface levels with stories and like characters who they agree with morally and honestly it got me thinking about the Star Wars Prequels because

The biggest disagreement I have had with people is whether or not the Jedi were the heroes or not of the story and whether you think they are the heroes or not is very dependent on how you read the story

Star Wars is a rather interesting case of conflicting writing ideas, especially in the clone wars TV show, because the writers both wanted to keep the complexity and moral ambiguity of the Prequels (which was still more black and white in its approach than it should have been), and wanted to have the main characters be easily morally accessible to kids

So you ended up in a situation where the surface level story elements, like the framing of the characters, only ever portrays the main characters as good or bad, black or white, never grey (except for Anakin when he is sliding into the dark side) but the more you look at the wider world in the story and consider the actions our "heroes" take the more morally questionable they appear

So whether you choose to look beyond the surface or not and whether you choose to remember its place in the overarching story makes a big difference in how you morally understand the events of the Clone Wars

Ultimately the Prequels are a tragedy, they are the tragic fall of one Anakin Skywalker to the dark side and everyone agrees on that it is the story of Anakin's fall, what they disagree on is whether the tragedy is about how a child was twisted into a killer or whether the tragedy is in the destruction of the Jedi and the disagreement very clearly comes from which media's portrayal you choose to believe in

Because in the Prequels we watch this young kid get treated with disdain and have to abandon the only person who has always bee there for him and then he starts getting groomed by Palpatine, come back to him in the second film as a teenager struggling with his powers and get told not to act on his foresight leading directly to the death of his mother then get thrown into a war he is not prepared for all whilst Palpatine continues to groom him, then come back to him in the third film where he gets another prophetic vision chooses not to go to the Jedi about it because at this point he is having to hide it to protect the only relationship he cares about and instead goes to Palpatine whose grooming had been successful and who promises to help him

His downfall in the Prequels appears to be a result of the twisted character he grew into as a result of these external forces, both the Jedi's messed up approach to emotions, Palpatine's grooming and the result of the trauma he has had to endure, the tragedy is a result of factors not Anakin's burden to bear alone

Plus, we are actively seeing the fall of the Jedi and the Republic throughout this as both institutions separately make concessions they should never have made, such as choosing to use the clone army and electing a dictator

It's a complex picture, one in which no one walks away looking good

And yes there is definitely a lack of complexity being fleshed out, with the Jedi being a lot more morally reprehensible than people want to acknowledge, but it's always clear that no one is completely good, everyone makes mistakes in the story that leads to it's tragic conclusion

By contrast, the Clone Wars does not want that moral complexity, it still has the elements that make the story morally complex (including the ones the Prequels didn't look deep enough at), such as the use of the Clone Troopers, the characterisation of the Jedi, the Jedi code and council, the Republic becoming more and more corrupt as well as the question of why are we waging a war against people who just wanted to leave the Republic

Except know the Jedi and Republic are good guys and the Separatists are bad

Yoda talks to the Clones and gives them words of wisdom, as if they aren't slaves he is forcing to fight for him, the Jedi appear less aloof and more in touch with the world around them, Obi Wan especially appears less attached to the Jedi Order, they're clearly fighting to defend invaded planets and war is clearly the only option available to them, yet we don't longer on why they are using slave labour, we don't linger on why the peace keepers are resorting to violence and we don't linger on the psychological effects on throwing Padawans into war

And we get to not linger in the moral questionableness of it all because the bad guys are so clearly bad (also a problem with the movies, the Separatists do not have anywhere near as much moral standing as they should), Dooku is controlling the Separatists and he is obviously a Sith so bad, we rarely if ever meet people on the Separatists side who are actually moral equals to the Jedi and when we do they are either being kept in the dark by Dooku or weak-willed and coerced into becoming Separatists, the Separatists are mostly shown invading planets and robbing the planets of its resources and people rather than asking the planet to leave the Republic because there are very visible issues with the way the Republic is running things now

We have characters framed as black and white so people who choose to buy into the framing think everything in Star Wars is black and white

But the people who don't, the people who question the Jedi

It's like pulling on a stray string in a sweater, everything unravels

It goes from okay well that's a bit of a questionable thing for the "good guys" to do to Oh my gods, they're so abusive, they were setting up themselves up for emotionally repressed assholes who think they have a right to make decisions on the galaxy's behalf and have the power to fight armies, it's a wonder it didn't happen sooner

And it's honestly really interesting to see the dichotomy of opinions brought about by looking at the framing of events Vs considering the event itself

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marveltaughtmetoread · 2 years

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Star Wars, Prequel Era, really tries to have its cake and eat it

It both wants you to side unquestioningly with the Jedi AND make the enemy three dimensional characters, sympathetic and understandable in their own right

But the moment you make the enemy sympathetic, you make the actions of the good guys questionable and the Prequels media ignores that

Instead choosing to portray the Jedi and the Republic as unquestionably and objectively good despite their actions being morally questionable at best and downright imperial at worst

It has the occasional story which clearly raises questions about the morality of the Republic's side, with all the stories focusing on different things the Jedi and Republic do as possibly bad, and then it goes on to ignore these implications or actively undercut them by immediately have the Sith and Separatists do something so much worse that distracts the viewer from the Republic's side and means the show does not have to deal with these questions

But the questions linger

How can you justify destroying an entire ship when you have humanised the droids and shown them to have their own feelings and consciousness, how can you say the Separatists are evil and bad when you show that they have a point and that the Republic is ineffective and flawed, how can you show the Jedi as paragons of goodness and have their charges show clear signs of abuse and indoctrination, how can you have the Jedi as the unquestioned good guys as they sacrifice clones like they are expendable, how can Obi Wan be the compassionate one when it is Anakin who consistently risks his life for others, how can you have Obi Wan as proof of the Jedi's virtue when he demeans Anakin, how can Obi Wan be the negotiator when it is Anakin who actually connects with and tries to understand those of different cultures

You can't

You can't have them being the unquestioned good guys in one trilogy, and have their old way of doing things be rejected by the hero of the original Trilogy

You have to decide whether you want the Jedi Order to be unquestionably good and the enemy as cartoonishly evil, objectively bad with no redeeming features, or you need to have both sides be shown as repeatedly grey with the situation being recognisably complicated and subjective, the Jedi as a well-meaning but flawed order doomed to fall, and the Republic as something that was once good but fell to corruption

Because you can't have them as objectively good and keep the story as a cautionary tale of how people can be trying to do the right thing but still causing harm

The story needed nuance but the Prequels didn't really want to have to deal with the complications of that nuance so they made it black and white and then randomly implied it might be more complicated without fully committing

And this is why the fans are so divided

From how the story is framed, the Jedi are objectively good, but from the acts they partake in and the things they do, they are questionable

They ignore the slavery of the outer rims, they use clones as expendable soldiers in a war the clones did not choose to be part of, they allow themselves to be ruled over by Palpatine a man they have been suspicious of since the beginning, they teach kids to repress their emotions in the worst way possible and then act surprised when the kids end up unbalanced, they actively distrust and dislike Anakin but then choose to become responsible for him and constantly hold him back from reaching his potential whilst telling him he is the choose one, they say that compassion is a part of the code but then refuse to allow attachment

And a lot of the extended canon tries to fix this by expanding and lightly retconning the Jedi Order and Code but they miss the point

The Jedi need to be flawed for the original story to work, both the Original trilogy and Anakin's fall in the Prequels

And the Republic needs to be flawed for Palpatine to rise to power and become emperor without annoying being able to stop him

Your political system can't be perfect and have you end up with a dictator

The story is built on both the Republic and Jedi being flawed, it doesn't work unless they are but the writers want them to be the heroes, they want to have a space opera with war as something that can be presented as fun and to do that they sacrificed the nuance of the Jedi

They had their cake and tried to eat it and it's a mess that divides the fandom

People ignoring the implications of what is happening in canon to focus on what is explicitly said and how the characters are framed

And people unable to reconcile the way the acts of the 'heroes' are framed with what they see in canon

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