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wackus-bonkus-maximus · 4 months

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Same anon who just asked about why you placed Adrien as a 7 instead of a 2, only to look deeper in the reblogs of your ML enneagram post and see you already answered it haha!

In friendly defense of 2!Adrien, I’d argue that his reactions to being stressed coming off as more of a 7 rather than a 2 is actually a perfect reflection of the effects of his abuse; it’s fear that drives his non-confrontation tendencies rather his own nature. I think Risk highlighted that a bit in revealing how Adrien does desire confrontation, even if he doesn’t act on it.

(I have always found it interesting to consider the role that trauma/neurodivergency plays in shaping a character’s personality, since it’s one of the flaws I feel most personality assessments can’t really account for.)

I also think Chat’s arguments with LB were more like to be confrontational than avoidant (thinking of the times he’s called her out and his romantic pursuit being the primary indicators), up until she became the Guardian. So then with S4, I’d consider it to be a gradual relationship shift that leads to Chat no longer feeling safe and secure enough in his position to confront her the way he once did, which is why he only tries a bit in Kuro Neko before running, and then doesn’t try at all in Strikeback.

I hope this doesn’t come off as too preachy or anything, just wanted to share my 2¢! Cause either way you slice it, your Adrien has always been brilliantly written and incredibly in-character to me, so you’ve clearly got a rock solid understanding of his character. ❤️

hello november anon and sorry for the delay! thank you so much for the ask and also for going back and looking through my prev posts. you know my teacher heart loves it when you do the readings! 😌 also you're definitely not the only one who believes adrien is a 2 rather than a 7! and while i know there are good arguments for both sides, i'll explain in depth my position on adrien's personality.

part 1 of the ask:

so here are the reasons i think adrien IS an enneagram type 7

adrien's motivation seems like that of a 7 to me: he wants to experience everything and be satisfied in every way he can. if he had a disney princess "i want" song, it would be "i want to go to school, i want to make friends, i want adventure in the great wide somewhere., i want to have fun."

the literal first shot of him in the show (if we use origins as a starting point) is adrien running away. nathalie asks him to please reconsider, he knows what his father wants, and adrien says, "but this is what i want to do." according to the enneagram institute, "sevens do not see themselves as the center of a community or family, but as members of a free-floating band of fellow adventurers whose own enjoyment is enhanced by being with others." going to school and having a new experience with new people is what's going to enhance adrien's enjoyment of life - not being the center of his family unit or the apple of his father's eye.

a 2's motivation would be to be as loved as possible and to make themselves neeed by those they most care about. while adrien definitely shows a desire to be loved and needed, especially by ladybug, i think his primary desire is for experience, and it's this from which all his actions- not just characteristics - are based. take for example his reaction to getting his miraculous vs marinette's (also in origins):

adrien is excited and intrigued and ready to go, as a 7 would be when offered a new experience - and a new way to satisfy their desire to try everything. marinette, as a 1, is quite the opposite: she is being put in a situation where she must do something right or fail, and therefore is stressed tf out. while marinette's motivation to be good/perfect fuels her anxious reaction, adrien's motivation to experience everything and be satisfied fuels his thrilled and slightly reckless reaction. that's why he charges out into battle without listening to all the instructions; his motivation was to escape the restraints of his life and try something new.

in growth, enneagram 7's take on the positive traits of 5's. in stress, they take on the negative traits of 1's. i have seen adrien exhibit these behaviors throughout the show on many occasions!

according to the enneagram institute, "Sevens have fear about their inner world. There are feelings of pain, loss, deprivation, and general anxiety that Sevens would like to stay clear of as much as possible. To cope with these feelings, Sevens keep their minds occupied with exciting possibilities and options— as long as they have something stimulating to anticipate, Sevens feel that they can distract themselves from their fears." therefore, while one can argue that adrien's wealth of knowledge and fun facts is a result of everything gabriel has forced him to learn (mandarin, piano, fencing, medieval horse colors), we can assume he at least was interested in it - and that seeking new knowledge like a 5 kept him from lingering in his sadness.

"i'll help you learn mandarin marinette" "i'll show you how to fence marinette" "most people think henry iv's white horse was white my lady" "do you need subtitles my lady i speak several languages"

now as to how adrien moves to the low parts of type 1 during the show: i think the main examples of this are the instances he adopts rigid, critical, and judgemental characteristics, which is potentially unpleasant for anyone who has to be around him.

first up, adrien's akumatized forms: chat blanc, ephemeral, celesticat

i bring up the akumas because, though adrien isn't in his right mind (by hawkmoth's akumas), they are examples of adrien being in extreme stress.

as chat blanc, adrien wants to either right the world or destroy it for being wrong - the critical supreme judgement an unhealthy 1 is capable of. he lashes out when contradicted, and is quite ruthless even to marinette, who he loves, in the name of executing judgement.

as ephemeral, adrien seeks to control time. (however, this is probably the weakest example because adrien was being amok-controlled in this instance and was acting on shadow moth's will, not his own.)

i include celesticat because while this is an example of a "good" akumatization, adrien was still under so much stress that an akumatization was able to take place. yet even while being in "good" stress, adrien still shows characteristics of 1: perfectionism, righteousness, taking control of the situation. he literally turns into a pure white angelic being, an embodiment of perfection. it's what he believes he has to do in order to salvage the situation. it's one of the more healthier moves from 7 to 1 i have seen depicted in media and is entirely plausible concept under the enneagram's theory! this just goes to show the depth and richness of his character.

next, we will discuss adrien's various alter egos:

cat walker

i've said it before and i'll say it again; cat walker is another move from 7 -> 1.

as chat noir, adrien is at the height of his 7-ness. he enjoys the freedom that his miraculous powers and secret identity gives him, and uses it as a means of escape from the regular constraints of his life and obligations. then in kuro neko when ladybug slights him, she denies him the fulfilment and satisfaction in reaching his full potential as chat noir (e.g., being of equal importance on the team as her) that he should be allowed. of course he becomes hurt and angry! she's stepping on his core desire in life.

according to enneagram coach dr. tom lahue (my favorite enneagram guy ((also a 7)), "type 7's typically deal with anger by trying to avoid it or deflect it. that really is the anger type of a 7 - deflective. deflecting things away." that's what i believe cat walker is: a stress reaction, a deflection of his anger with ladybug. he deflects his painful emotions into something he thinks is positive; a new start.

adrien is usually so joyful and optimistic, but this was a huge blow for him. dr. tom says the best way for a 7 to handle this anger is to be "real and genuine" when coming to terms with it, what does adrien do instead? he turns to a new alter ego. he chases the experience of fulfillment, only he does so by adopting a persona who is serious and perfectionist. obviously this was neither what adrien or ladybug needed, and that is because cat walker is a stress reaction who adrien cannot sustain without continued levels of unhealthy self-denial. this is the hardest he has gone to 1 in the show and what it took to snap him out of it was a level of reflection, analysis, and objectivity (that this was an unhealthy behavior) indicative of a type 5 - and which shows his progression to growth.

2. aspik

one can argue that aspik is more proof of adrien being a 2 than a 7 actually, as his motivations for becoming aspik were to woo ladybug. however, the stress response of a type 2 is to move to the negative qualities of type 8, which is to lash out at those who they believe have taken them for granted.

according to the enneagram institute,

"Average to unhealthy Twos seek validation of their worth by obeying their superego’s demands to sacrifice themselves for others. They believe they must always put others first and be loving and unselfish if they want to get love. The problem is that “putting others first” makes Twos secretly angry and resentful, feelings they work hard to repress or deny. Nevertheless, they eventually erupt in various ways, disrupting Twos’ relationships and revealing the inauthenticity of many of the average to unhealthy Two’s claims about themselves and the depth of their “love.”

as aspik, adrien was never resentful of ladybug for taking him for granted or making him feel rejected. as aspik, his goal was never to make himself needed by her. as aspik, he maintained some extreme levels of optimism that ignored the rational conclusion that he should give up for several thousand time loops. as aspik, he was able to let go and displace his hopes in himself to someone else - and run off to his responsibility as chat noir with high spirits (though i'm sure the ladrien kiss helped)

3. griffe noire

this has got to be the most stressful stress reaction i've seen on adrien. and you might say "but wackus he looks nothing like a type 1" and i say "JUST HOLD ON

going back to dr. tom's analysis on type 7's in anger, he says, "7's typically express their anger indirectly, e.g., through sarcasm, like 5's - like 6's sometimes... but they quickly try to move on and reframe into a more positive way." griffe noire, rather than telling jokes and puns to lighten the mood, mocks and ridicules poor toxinelle who has not convinced me she doesn't have a crush on him. 1's actually do the same thing when they are unhealthy; they criticize and blame and nag others for not being up to par, and by directing his anger at his situation onto toxinelle, griffe noire is doing the same.

dr tom goes on to say, "in some cases [7's] might take impulsive actions to try to free themselves from this feeling of being trapped... engaging in frenetic escapism in behaviors or addictions or substances to try to distance themselves from those who are frustrated with them... or their own anger/pain in life." we have seen griffe noire engage in multiple frenetic behaviors while running amok (haha), all of which are clearly attempts to redirect his pain and anger/ keep it from consuming him. for example, griffe noire takes chat noir's cataclysm to the chest as though it's a game. for another, he openly threatens to destroy the entire world with his super cataclysm. and of course, he is constantly abusing his miraculous by over-exerting his powers in a way only adults should. yet all of these destructive behaviors are still adrien's way of escaping his normal life, and his everyday pain. it's almost like his self-destruction is his addiction.

and yet by the end, it took the introspection of type 5 for griffe noire to realize that his behavior was unhealthy. he observed, he listened, he showed an inquisitiveness that brought him back from the brink. and he also upgraded his outfit so if that isn't a type 7 path to growth i don't know what is!

now i know i won't have convinced everybody, so i just want to drop this section from the enneagram institute's text on misidentifying 2's and 7's:

Although both types are gregarious and enjoy being with people, their interpersonal styles are noticeably different. The Two... would like to be the heart and soul of a family or community, the best friend or confidant everyone comes to for attention, advice, and approval. Twos want to be significant to others and on intimate terms with them, although sometimes they go too far, meddling too much and being too solicitous to make sure they are needed.

adrien is not focused on being needed by anybody, not even ladybug (although due to his romantic interest in her, i can understand why people think so). being the heart and soul of the team is not what motivates him; primarily, i think he just likes having all the experiences he wouldn't otherwise get to have without being chat noir.

By contrast... Sevens do not see themselves as the center of a community or family, but as members of a free-floating band of fellow adventurers whose own enjoyment is enhanced by being with others.... Sevens may thus exhibit a certain generosity, although their motives may well have less to do with helping needier friends than with making sure that they themselves have a good time by having others around.

this isn't to say that adrien is just focused on having a "good time." i see that his enjoyment is amplified when he is surrounded by people he loves and cares for. he is motivated to have good experiences, and be fulfilled by trying everything, and becoming close to people and forming loving relationships is just a happy byproduct of that.

now there ARE several caveats to my analysis which provide potential arguments against typing adrien as a 7 - and which i can touch on briefly before i close:

adrien's abuse: i understand that trauma and anxiety can affect personality deeply. i'm not qualified to speak on this, or on how it should or shouldn't affect any personality type. i can only say that i think adrien has acted pretty consistently under stress as far as the show depicts

inconsistent characterization: i think we can all agree that ml won't be winning any awards for its consistency in characterization. which i know sounds contradictory to what i just said about how it depicts adrien under stress, but i think there IS a lot of discrepancy in this show and over the course of 9 years with different teams of writers all trying to execute one person's vision, inconsistencies are bound to happen.

thank you again for the ask, anon, and thank YOU if you have read all the way through! tell me your thoughts, if you make it down here - whether you agree/disagree or are just nodding along and letting me indulge in my enneagram brainrot! this is an entirely in-good-faith interpretation of mine, and i'd love to see other opinions if you have them!

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asukiess · 9 months

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i'm gonna hc that these are questions she always wanted to ask chat

#bc like. it was probably a test.#ml kuro neko #you think I can make someone hate me just bc I talk abt it sm

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lady-de-mon-coeur · 6 months

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#ml kuro neko #ladywalker #ladyvelours #ladybug #patte de velours #cat walker #irina draws

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iwasbored777 · 1 year

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Pls don't take this the wrong way I'm not one of the "Adrien is a sexual harasser" salters nor Adrien salter in the first place (you know me), but I think his experience with Ladybug was beneficial to his patience with Marinette because in some episodes like Glaciator 2 and such Ladybug was angry with him asking her to kiss him and later when he saw that it doesn't work he decided to change his method and be more of gentleman.

And in Kuro Neko he saw how much Ladybug likes respectful guys and him realizing that she cares about Chat Noir wasn't the only thing he learned here.

Ironically, the two episodes that are widely hated were crucial for his character development and not just for his identity crisis but for his later relationship too (which is something I don't see mentioned that much, everyone's only talking about the identity part). And now when he is going out with Marinette, who needs time and time before she feels comfortable with him, he knew what to do and how to behave around her because he learned.

In Glaciator 2 he could notice that the pressure of public is what angered Ladybug too and now with Marinette he knows that this is most definitely what's upsetting her. And he was right, they were happier alone than with everyone watching (who WOULD be happy with everyone watching?).

And it also helped Marinette fall for Chat Noir too, remember when she confirmed why she didn't want to give him a chance earlier.

(Pls don't hate her either for saying this, she was trying real hard to be good enough for Adrien too, they both did but this a story for another time)

Not that Adrien's behaviour was extremely disrespectful earlier but it did anger a person he tried to impress and it took him time but he learned how to improve himself. He wasn't problematic, I don't mean that, but he learned how to be more respectful and when it comes to love you need to respect your crush's boundaries and give them space especially if they request for it. Marinette has shown to love gentlemen since forever. She's a hopeless romantic. And Adrien really worked hard to make himself as good for her as he could. That's truly beautiful.

#miraculous ladybug #Ml analysis #marinette dupain cheng #adrien agreste #Adrien analysis #ml protection #ml glaciator 2 #ml kuro neko #Adrienette

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wield-the-mighty-pen · 6 months

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Do we think that the Ladrien dynamic in season 6 is going to be similar to that of Ladywalker?

Think of it like this:

Ladybug is still very much in love with Adrien, yet has to be covert about her feelings for him to protect her identity.

Adrien, on the other hand, is now in a very happy, committed relationship and therefore doesn't feel the need to flirt with, or become moony-eyed over Ladybug.

Ladybug can't seem to stop blushing and getting distracted by her boyfriend, whom she is currently saving and therefore can't have feelings for him right now. Adrien, on the other hand, who is very confused by her strange behavior, is behaving in the politely stoic way he uses interact with people that he isn't so close to.

However, this is merely an act, Adrien is close to Ladybug and knows her incredibly well and closely. In interactions, he is constantly having to keep himself in check and make sure he doesn't reveal that he knows too much, that he's aware of too much. He cares about her, but he has to make it seem like its a detached care. He has to treat her like a hero of Paris and not like one of his closest friends and partner.

The tension of identities and secrets gets so thick, that it begins an unraveling in their interactions that can only be resolved either with an identity reveal, or, the same way that Ladywalker ended, with them parting ways indefinitely.

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tempests-bards-and-birds · 2 years

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Oh, I'm sure there'll be another Chat Noir to give me cheese - but he won't be you.

#i made one of these for marinette and tikki so i figured i'd do one for adrien and plagg too #i would be lying if i said that i didn't tear up while i was rewatching these scenes #i'm a sucker for these two #ml #mlb #miraculous #miraculous ladybug #miraculous tales of ladybug and chat noir #ml gifs #ml gif #mledit #ml edit #adrien agreste #plagg #ml plagg #ml syren #ml kuro neko

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jennagrinsoverml · 1 year

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Got any Catwalker fic recs? Haven't found many yet but the angst and identity shenanigan potential from the setup makes me wanna read more, and your recs are top notch.

I really wish there was more Catwalker fics! Sadly there aren't very many still. I feel like, in general, there just wasn't as much fic for season 4 as for prior seasons (and it's only gotten worse for season 5...) With that said, here are a few I enjoyed.

Walking a Fine Line by @11jj11

Ladybug learns that Chat Noir was Cat Walker. Emotions ensue.

One-shot. I think all of us are itching for some good ladynoir confrontation considering canon events and how much they did NOT get into the nitty gritty of the conflict. So read this awesome fic that starts off light and leads to these two screaming at each other and then…well, I don’t want to spoil, but it’s absolutely beautiful 💖

another side of you by @emsylcatac

"Did he..." Chat Noir started, searching for the right words. "Did he like puns, my Lady?"

Ladybug frowned, clearly confused by the question. "Um, I'm not sure? He didn't laugh at mine, but—"

"Then it's a no," he grinned.

"What?" she scoffed. "You can't say no just because of puns, Chat Noir!"

"And why not?" he crossed his arms. "If I need a replacement, I need one who can fit my role perfectly. And the basic requirement to be a good Chat Noir is to like puns, which this Catwalker of yours clearly doesn't seem to meet."

One-shot. Ladybug and Chat Noir discuss the possibility of bringing back Cat Walker as Chat's emergency back up. Although Cat Walker doesn't make an appearance, the discussion is amazing, especially with Ladybug's crush on full display. (But of course Chat is Adrien and as oblivious as ever 🤣)

Marinette Considers Giving Cat Walker a Miraculous by Hadithi

“I should probably figure out whoever Cat Walker was and give him a miraculous,” Marinette jokes.

Her hands are covered in flour because she’s kneading dough, and she’s kneading dough because she found out last week that Adrien buys his bread at the grocery store. Her boyfriend is rich, and he could buy nice bread, but he doesn’t. Instead, Marinette bakes bread from scratch and knows that Adrien is always touched by gifts that aren’t paid for.

“You never found out?” Adrien grins as he leans across the counter.

One-shot. This is a cute post-reveal established relationship fic where Marinette finds out her boyfriend was Cat Walker too--and he teases her mercilessly. It's funny and sweet and it makes me happy to think something like this could happen one day.

The Sun is In Your Eyes by @deinde-prandium

The morning after they’ve revealed their identities to one another, Ladybug and Chat Noir have a much-needed talk. Post-season 4.

One-shot. Oh man, I love this fic a ridiculous amount. We get post-reveal pre-relationship in the aftermath of all of season 4′s angst and it’s beautiful!! Chat trying to hold back because he doesn’t want to pressure her, but his feelings haven’t changed, of course they haven’t. It’s post-reveal, but we get a Cat Walker reveal too!

Runaway Catwalker (ML Comic) by @runawaycatwalker

After Chat Noir's identity is discovered by Mayura, the only person left for Adrien to be is Catwalker...

Takes place post-Kuro Neko, pre-Risk/Strike Back.

Comic. This is a WIP! But it’s so good and I’m enjoying it immensely. You can also read it here on tumblr at their username. Everyone is really in character and there’s really excellent exploration of the fallout of Chat Noir’s identity being discovered, as well as his turn to being Catwalker full time. I’m excited to see how it all plays out!

#ml #miraculous ladybug #ml kuro neko #catwalker #cat walker #ml love square #ladynoir #identity reveal #ml fic recs #fics recs #ml fic #ml fanfic #jennarecsml

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gameguy20100 · 1 year

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Do you think Adrien was justified for the events in Kuro Neko

Yes, yes I do.

Depression and abandonment issues are really hard to deal with.

How would you feel if every part of your life was micromanaged to absurdity. You couldn't even tie your shoes without your father's permission.

But you have an outlet, a friend who you love, respect, and would do anything for. You help people and feel like you're making a difference.

But they not only call on you less. They replace you with a bunch of other people. And even say, despite the fact you've been by their side on this since day one, they regard you as "Just like the others."

Depression twisted Ladybugs words in his mind. What he heard was " He's replaceable. He's not special at all."

It's a massive kick to the ego to realise you mean less to a person than you thought. In Adrien’s case, the only person he felt he could be himself around.

So yes. Yes, his feelings were justified

#miraculous ladybug #ml ask #ml kuro neko #adrien agreste #adrien sugar #adrien deserves better #leave adrien alone challenge #anonymous

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celestiall0tus · 6 months

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Kuro Neko Half Notes - All That Remained

I can't do it! I fucking hate this episode! The writing is so fucking garbage! I know fucking 12 year-olds smarter than these 14-15 year olds.

Prepare for the utmost salt since, what was it? Migration! That one!

I will preface this saying that yes, I do know the main conflict of season 4. Lady is Guardian and Chat is getting shafted. But holy fuck is it so fucking bad.

First off, the role of Guardian should never have fallen on Ladybug. Master Fu was an irresponsible, horrible mother fucking adult for pulling that stunt. Marinette is still a fucking child and shouldn't have all that responsibility thrust on her shoulders. I don't care how special a ladybug she is, absolutely awful. Shame. Shame on all y'all!

Adrien, buddy, read the room!! And again, another instance where I can see the trauma peeking through but it still doesn't feel right. I can give it to him that his first thought would be to overreact, thinking he wasn't needed and have that absolutely crush him. That I get, but not that reaction. For the abuse he suffers as per the writers of the show, you'd expect a more taken aback, heartbroken response. Him not letting her see him break down, renouncing his kwami without a hint of what he was doing, and running off. With his reaction in the episode, I was honestly waiting for him to throw the ring in a dumpster. Enjoy dumpster diving, m'lady.

Then there is the conflict of Plagg not knowing how to fucking just say things plainly to a fucking child. And darling Marinette just assuming that Chat being in love with her was the entire problem. That was part of the problem, but again, a double edged sword. On one hand, Marinette, for all her "maturity" should have had some inkling to Chat as a partner and friend, but feels like she disregarded him. Then ol Chat. We need to working on timing, response, and a level of emotional maturity that is sorely lacking. Again, he feels more like an entitled little bitch ass white boy than an abuse victim. Maybe Daddy dearest doesn't love or spend enough time with him, but not how Gabriel is supposedly treating him.

Oh! And let's not forget the absolute best part of the damn episode. Seeing that Ladybug's "ideal man" is just Adrien. Ultimately proving at this point that she really doesn't love Chat Noir or his antics and is utterly obsessed with Adrien that you're only perfect if you are him. Fuck you, Astruc. You hear me? Fuck you.

I hate Kuro Neko. I fucking hate it so fucking much.

#miraculous #miraculous ladybug #miraculoustalesofladybugandcatnoir #ml salt #miraculous salt #salt #kuro neko #ml kuro neko

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wehadabondingmoment · 10 months

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Catwalker and Velvet Paw (French Dub) were both excellent name choices for Kuro Neko because they have simultaneously the same and the exact opposite meaning.

In this (totally over-analyzed) essay I will-

#catwalker #kuro neko #ml s4 #velvet paw #chat noir #adrien agreste #cat noir #depression #mental issues #ladynoir #ml spoilers #sentimonster #sentimonster adrien #miraculous #miraculous ladybug #ml kuro neko #season 4 #mlb

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adrinoir · 2 years

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The “Forbidden Love” between Marinette and Adrien

I know this has definitely been talked about a lot, but I feel we need a little refresher of all the reasons behind the narrative that Marinette and Adrien can’t be together and why they’re not true.

Their love didn’t destroy the world

Chat Blanc was wrong when he said “it was our love that did this to the world, M’lady!” No. It was not their love that destroyed the world.

There’s this narrative the show likes to push that these two can’t be together because it’s too dangerous and it’s what destroyed the world. Marinette has continuously thought that she can’t be with Cat Noir for that reason, but she wasn’t given the full story.

The line she should’ve paid attention to was this: “Things were purr-fect until Hawk Moth found out about everything. Once the cat is out of the bag, it’s only a matter of time ‘til everyone knows.”

That was Chat Blanc explaining it was perfect until Hawk Moth found out, but to be fair, this is also a bit vague.

Marinette may not know the full story, because she’s not an omniscient main character and the present version of her didn’t see the timeline where they were together, but we as the audience do. There’s probably people somewhere in the fandom who stand by Marinette in thinking she can’t love Cat Noir, but it’s not true.

You know who caused the world to end? Oh that’s right, Gabriel Agreste. If Gabriel actually cared about Adrien, the love between Marinette and Adrien would’ve lasted.

In Chat Blanc, Gabriel went out of his way to end the relationship between Marinette and Adrien. He purposely did that so he could akumatize Marinette. Then, obviously, Adrien transformed into Cat Noir to save her, but of course he got caught. Yes, he should’ve been careful with that, but also, his father shouldn’t have reacted the way he did when he found this out.

If Gabriel was a good father, he would’ve had that realization that he’s been hurting his own son, having him fight all these villains. He could’ve renounced Nooroo. But nope. He’s the worst father ever and just HAD to manipulate and akumatize his own son.

Fast forward to Ephemeral, Gabriel also mistakenly finds out Adrien is Cat Noir (for the dumbest reason, too!) and repeats that same behavior of manipulating and akumatizing his own son. Adrien wasn’t even jeopardizing his relationship. All he did was call Marinette “M’lady” yet he STILL had to deal with this.

If Gabriel was in jail or in a coma from using too many miraculouses at once, Adrien and Marinette would have a happy relationship! He’s always the root of the problem when Adrien and Marinette tried dating. It’s never been them.

Having romantic feelings isn’t the root of the problems in their relationship as heroic partners

Additionally, in Kuro Neko, Plagg plants the idea in Marinette’s mind that Cat Noir quit just because “she doesn’t love him back,” which is not why he gave up. But, it makes Marinette think that part of them having a healthy partnership might rely on them having a shared romantic interest in each other. As if it’s not possible to have a healthy partnership if she doesn’t like him back romantically. She never learns the real reason is that he was hurt because she didn’t see him as her most important partner, despite being there since day one.

Then, Ladybug develops some feelings for Cat Walker, and she can’t think of a plan to destroy the sentimonster because she’s so distracted by Cat Walker. This further pushes the idea that she can’t love her partner either because then she’ll struggle to focus on the task at hand.

They don’t know why they’ve kissed but they’re always reminded of the times they’ve kissed

All this aside, there’s also the kisses that happened in Dark Cupid and Oblivio. The forgotten kisses.

It wasn’t until Prime Queen that Cat Noir finds out Ladybug kissed him in Dark Cupid. Let alone, he doesn’t even know why that kiss had to happen because he completely forgot about it. Although, admittedly, Ladybug wanted to kiss him, at least a little bit, because it wasn’t necessarily something she had to do. But, again, Cat Noir will never know that.

Then, in Oblivio, they both forget what happens and only see this picture of them kissing. Both of them are pulling their hair out trying to figure out how in the world that kiss happened between them. There’s no way they’ll ever be able to figure out what caused it. No one was watching them prior to.

Glaciator 2 really shows how much it’s gotten to them when Ladybug gets irritated that they were voted Couple of the Year. She has Alya delete all the photos of them off the Ladyblog. Meanwhile, Cat Noir gets so hurt that he feels the need to delete his own photos of Ladybug and destroy the many posters of them scattered around Paris.

Conclusion

It’s sad because these two deserve to be happy together and not feel the need to question their feelings and wonder why having a relationship would be such a bad thing. They’re constantly given these ideas that they can’t be together because it’s too dangerous and causes too many issues (including destroying the world).

Cat Noir is so in love with Ladybug, but she feels the need to push him away. And it’s not necessarily because she doesn’t feel the same way, but because she believes it’s impossible to ever be with him, and potentially risky to even just trust him. It’s so sad. Marinette shouldn’t have to feel like she can’t even trust her own partner.

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bittersweetresilience · 9 months

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Adrien Agreste and Borderline Personality Disorder

DISCLAIMER: I've been a bit low on spoons this week, so I haven't gathered as much evidence as I probably could have. Also, I am but a humble student in clinical psychology. This is mainly a thought compilation for @moonieratty!

To introduce the topic, without going into it too much, personality is described by features and behavioral patterns, or traits, consistent across situations and across time. Personality disorders are therefore enduring patterns of highly maladaptive traits evaluated in personal and sociocultural context (Dozois, 2019, p. 290).

Like other disorders, personality disorders have diagnostic criteria. The DSM is used primarily for diagnosis in the US and Canada while the ICD is used more widely in Europe and other places. I'm more familiar with the DSM, but I've included a brief section on the ICD to be comprehensive. It ended up a bit longer than anticipated, so let's go below the cut. Warning for discussions of abuse, self harm, and suicide, and a brief mention of substance use.

Overview of Borderline Personality Disorder

BPD is prevalent in a small percentage of the population, about 1-2% by varying estimates, and is characterized by instability across domains of emotions, identity, interpersonal relationships, and behavior. Its onset is usually in late adolescence or early adulthood and symptoms may diminish with age, after one's thirties or forties, especially with therapeutic intervention. Along with ASPD, it has been the focus of a lot of clinical research; it is unfortunately associated with high rates of non-suicidal self-injury and suicide (APA, 2022, pp. 754–755; Dozois, 2019, pp. 308–309).

Etiological factors for BPD include both biological and environmental disturbances. Of note to our discussion is the heightened risk for BPD in cases of child abuse or neglect, as well as growing up with another family member with a serious mental health condition (NHS, 2022). It's been well established that Gabriel is emotionally neglectful if not outright abusive toward Adrien in multiple ways, so this is a clear risk factor. In addition, although I won't argue definitively for Gabriel having a psychological condition, he did keep Emilie's body in the basement, so there is clearly some kind of disturbance going on.

From a cognitive-behavioral perspective, Linehan argues that BPD stems from families who consistently invalidate childhood emotional experiences and "oversimplify the ease with which life's problems can be solved," which may cause children to learn to seek attention and communicate with others through emotional outbursts (Dozois, 2019, p. 297). This rings true for Adrien and Gabriel as well.

I have to apologize for my son, Ladybug, he's like his mother. Way too overly dramatic. (Jackady)

It doesn't seem like this is the first time Gabriel has thought this, and labeling an emotional reaction as being overly dramatic is very much invalidation of it. As for emotional outbursts, Adrien has had quite a few, mostly as Chat Noir. More on this later.

To round out this first section, attachment theory proposes a connection between poor parent-child attachments and BPD relationship difficulties. Specifically, maladaptive behavior in relationships may stem from childhood development of an anxious-ambivalent attachment style, where intense fears of abandonment interfere with a strong desire for intimacy (Dozois, 2019, p. 310). You can clearly see this in Chat Noir's relationship with Ladybug, and I'm sure other people have discussed Adrien's attachment style more in depth, but suffice to say I think this is an apt description.

Argument from DSM-5-TR

In the DSM, personality disorders are primarily diagnosed on a categorical model. There are a few general criteria which I won't be going into, but I will highlight that personality disorders are stable and pervasive, and would be diagnosed only if they were leading to significant distress or dysfunction. Adrien's mental state is not great, so the latter shouldn't be a problem, but this show does not always pay attention to consistency, so I'm going to be speculating some. Everything in this section is cited to the relevant DSM entry unless otherwise stated.

The DSM characterizes BPD with instability in relationships, self image, and affects, as well as marked impulsivity. It has no exclusion criteria, so BPD can be and frequently is comorbid with other disorders like mood disorders, PTSD, and ADHD. Of the below criteria, five need to be met in order for a diagnosis to be made.

Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

Hey, where're you going? . . . So you're allowed to know her true identity, but I'm not? (Syren)

You're not really replacing me with a turtle, are you? (Anansi)

A lot of people have delved into Adrien's abandonment issues, which feature most prominently in his relationship with Ladybug. His fears of being replaced result in him seeking reassurance from Ladybug, and he can lash out if he does not receive the response he hopes for. Ladybug is his world, and he wants to be hers, so anything infringing on that feels to him like a threat of being abandoned, and he does not like it very much.

Impulsive behaviors like giving up his ring can be interpreted under this lens: he can avoid abandonment by doing the abandoning first. Then it will be him leaving, and not the other way around.

I also interpret Adrien's nightmare (Le Marchand de Sable) as being a fear of being alone as much as it is a fear of being trapped.

Unstable and intense interpersonal relationships alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

We'll be united, more powerful and free. We'll defeat Hawk Moth, then we can both run away to an island! Far away from everything. We will live off nothing but fruits, and we will have a little pet hamster and we will name it— (Le Patineur)

I just can't do this anymore. I give up… on everything. Even you . . . If I become Chat Noir again, Ladybug will just end up rejecting me, over and over. (Kuro Neko)

Even though Adrien mostly keeps his head on straight regarding what he's owed and not owed by other people, his relationship with Ladybug is full of highs and lows. He thinks Ladybug is the most amazing girl, but this can recoil quickly into feeling as though Ladybug doesn't care about him enough or isn't meeting his needs.

Furthermore, he developed this idealization of Ladybug as a potential lover or caregiver at one of their first meetings (Cœur de Pierre), and continually sought to spend time together and share the intimate details of their secret identities early on. These are all common to individuals with BPD, as is the switch from idealization to feeling as if the other person "does not care enough, does not give enough, or is not 'there' enough." Ladybug is the only person Adrien consistently projects this instability and intensity on, which might be something interesting to explore.

Identity disturbance: unstable self image or sense of self

When I was a kid, I always wanted to be what my parents wanted me to be! (Exauceur)

But, does that mean Chat Noir is who I really am? Deep down inside? (Kuro Neko)

With all the secret identities, it isn't surprising that Adrien fits this criterion, but canon even explicitly draws a link between Adrien's unstable sense of self and his childhood experiences. He doesn't know who he is, and he distracts from this by being Chat Noir, only to struggle even more when he feels useless and underlooked as his hero self. His behavior shifts dramatically between trying to prove himself with grand gestures and refusing to participate or lashing out. There is definitely something to discuss on this front.

Impulsivity in at least two potentially self-damaging areas

Giving you some extra time . . . I trust you to bring me back, m'lady. (Gamer 2.0)

There are only two liars left in Paris and one of them knows the ultimate way to catch her attention . . . Crazy about you, m'lady. (Mensonge)

This is walking a thin line between impulsivity and suicidal behavior, which would be excluded from this criterion, but I'll list self sacrifice here because I can see an argument for Chat Noir's impulsive behaviors being out of love or the desire to be useful. There may still be some self injurious intent or euphoria, but Chat Noir does have faith in Ladybug to bring him back eventually. Nevertheless, this is impulsive and unhealthy. Chat Noir jumps too quickly to this option to have thought it through.

I can't think of another area, because Adrien isn't old enough for reckless driving, spending, substance use, or sex. This is also a kids' show. Just presenting these options for fanfiction writers out there.

Recurrent suicidal or self mutilating behavior, gestures, or threats

I... I don't know what to do! (Chat Blanc)

This is all our fault . . . Cataclysm. (Culpabysse)

By itself, what happened in Chat Blanc would not be solid evidence, as that was an unprecedentedly traumatic situation. Combined with Culpabysse, though, there is a strong case to be made for at least passive suicidality for this to be able to come up as an option.

You could also interpret the self sacrifice in this category. Suicidal behavior in individuals with BPD is often preempted by fears of rejection or abandonment, so an interesting analysis could be made on this front.

Affective instability due to marked reactivity of mood

He's still only thinking of himself! I just want this terrible day to be over and done with! I hate Christmas! (Pire Noël)

Sorry! Sorry! I didn't mean to make you so mad. I get it. You're sick of me . . . No one can help me, Kagami. (Glaciator 2)

Adrien's prolonged episodes of anger and despair reflect a high reactivity to emotional stressors, especially interpersonal ones. In general, he just doesn't feel very well unless something is actively bringing him joy. Most of his outbursts are brief, though, and I will discuss them as part of a later criterion.

Chronic feelings of emptiness

I'm not Adrien, so I wouldn't know if this is the case, but I can say he has experienced at least one depressive episode (Kuro Neko) and emptiness would not be unfamiliar. You can look at him and decide.

Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger

How was your amazing evening with your "friends"? . . . What do you think? (Glaciator)

Why not? No one'll know if I quit. No one'll care! (Syren)

A two-person plan?! There's only one two-person plan, and that's Ladybug and me! (Sentibulleur)

Give me a break, Miss "I can't even come up with a superhero name"! (Hack-San)

Anger in individuals with BPD can manifest as bitterness, sarcasm, or recurrent verbal outbursts, which Chat Noir absolutely exemplifies. These outbursts are often followed by feelings of shame or guilt and contribute to a feeling of being bad. Chat Noir apologizes after being harsh in Glaciator, and I wouldn't be surprised if he felt badly about the other times. Again, these outbursts are often precipitated by interpersonal fears and perceived threats of abandonment. Unlike other symptoms, this specific one tends to be unique to BPD.

Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociation

I cannot recall any evidence for this but headcanon away, my friends.

All in all, I think Adrien has a strong case for BPD presentation according to the DSM. Canon is not always consistent, but I think it presents an interesting and mostly coherent narrative for this lens. From this perspective, Adrien's behavior reflects a deep intolerance of being alone and a dependence on other people to define the self.

As a corollary, BPD behavioral patterns are frequently linked to self sabotage and self undermining right when a goal is about to be realized, which could manifest as dropping out of school right before graduating or ending a relationship when it seems to be going well. Food for thought. Individuals with BPD may also feel more secure with transitional objects like pets than with interpersonal relationships, which could reflect in Adrien's relationship with Plagg.

To add some subjective understanding to this clinical mumbo jumbo, I've added a source of genuine BPD experiences below (Mind, 2022).

Argument from ICD-11

With the release of the ICD-11, a dimensional model for diagnosis of personality disorders became the new standard. What this means is that individuals are no longer labeled as having 'histrionic' or 'dependent' or, indeed, 'borderline' personality disorders, but are rather assessed as having any form of personality disorder on a sliding scale of severity and with trait domain specifiers (Swales, 2022). To put it more simply, people are diagnosed only with a general personality disorder or personality difficulty which can be optionally specified as deviating on one of the personality traits in the Big Five model, which is well established in personality psychology.

This move has several benefits. Stigmatization related to particular personality disorders can be reduced, and differential diagnosis and comorbidity between personality disorders becomes irrelevant. However, people retain access to treatment and support. Evidence-based treatments like dialectical behavior therapy are particularly well established and crucial for BPD; for this pragmatic purpose, the ICD contains one additional specifier for borderline pattern personality disorder (Bach et al., 2022; Swales, 2022).

The DSM and ICD are designed to be compatible with each other in many ways, and in this case, the borderline specifier in the ICD is directly lifted from the criterion of the DSM (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5). Based on our previous discussion, Adrien would be equally qualified for a diagnosis in France. I would likely describe his personality disorder with moderate severity, where multiple areas of functioning are affected and self harming behaviors may be present, but not all areas or relationships may be equally impacted and traits are not as rigid and inflexible (WHO, 2023, 6D10.0–6D10.2).

Interestingly, the ICD includes three additional manifestations of borderline pattern which are optional and may vary across time (WHO, 2023, 6D11.5).

A view of the self as inadequate, bad, guilty, disgusting, and contemptible

An experience of the self as profoundly different and isolated from other people; a painful sense of alienation and pervasive loneliness

Proneness to rejection hypersensitivity; problems in establishing and maintaining appropriate levels of trust in relationships; frequent misinterpretation of social signals

I'm fascinated by the number of adjectives in here. I simplified very slightly, as I did with the DSM criteria, but I had to keep all these adjectives. Anyway, I won't elaborate for too many more paragraphs, so let's say sentimonster moment and leave it at that. I will spare you my mirrored Félix essay. For now.

Qualifications and Limitations

First of all, Adrien is a teenager. The distinguishing factor between a personality disorder and regular adolescent difficulties would be longevity and identity concerns beyond his developmental phase (APA, 2022, p. 758). Second of all, Adrien has a uniquely terrible home life and magical problems. Some of his behaviors could be normal considering his experiences and sociocultural context, and this matters when it comes to psychological evaluation. Take everything with a grain of salt!

More generally, the categorical model of the DSM has several issues, not to mention diagnostic issues related to culture, gender, and stigma. Some but not all of these issues are addressed by the dimensional model it includes in a later section, which shares theoretical foundations with the model of personality disorders in the ICD. Even so, issues remain. Diagnosis, access to treatment, and political statements are intrinsically linked in complex ways. I won't get into all of the nuances, but be safe, remember this is a fictional character, and keep an open mind.

REFERENCES:

American Psychiatric Association. (2022). Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders (5th ed., text rev.). https://doi.org/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787

Bach, B., Kramer, U., Doering, S., di Giacomo, E., Hutsebaut, J., Kaera, A., De Panfilis, C., Schmahl, C., Swales, M., Taubner, S., & Renneberg, B. (2022). The ICD-11 classification of personality disorders: A European perspective on challenges and opportunities. Borderline Personality Disorder and Emotion Dysregulation, 9(1). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40479-022-00182-0

Dozois, D. J. A. (2019). Abnormal psychology: Perspectives (6th ed.). Pearson.

Mind. (2022, September). What does BPD feel like? https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/types-of-mental-health-problems/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/experiences-of-bpd/

National Health Service. (2022, November 4). Causes - Borderline personality disorder. https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/borderline-personality-disorder/causes/

Swales, M. A. (2022). Personality disorder diagnoses in ICD-11: Transforming conceptualisations and practice. Clinical Psychology in Europe, 4(Special Issue). https://doi.org/10.32872/cpe.9635

World Health Organization. (2023). International statistical classification of diseases and related health problems (11th ed.). https://icd.who.int/

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