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#lucifer speculation

the-stress-express · 4 days

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Greetings, my Lovelies, I hope y’all are having a great day/night!

And if you’re not, I hope it gets better!

Anyway, I yoinked another Hazbin Hotel TikTok I made from my page for you guys to enjoy here.

Lucifer could probably use some hugs…

I hope y’all enjoy!

Stay hydrated!

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luckykittysshowerthoughts · 5 months

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The Fall as an Act of Mercy

When we first hear about what happened in the Great Celestial War, why the brothers fell, it's easy to go, "WTF". It's easy to blood-boilingly angry over the brothers' fate, how much they didn't deserve what they got. It's easy to consider their damnation a heartless, cruel decision, a punishment they never deserved.

But looking at it closer, it gets a lot more complicated. I don't think it was ever about what they "deserved" at all.

I want you to ask yourself. If Father was willing to punish Lilith as harshly as he wanted to just for falling in love with/saving a human, what do you think his punishment for a full-on, violent rebellion would have been?

It's always felt strange to me, that Lilith's punishment was so much harsher than her brothers'. Even if falling in love with a human and altering their lifespan was a grievous enough sin to warrant death or endless darkness, was what the brothers did any less? Compared to Lilith's projected punishment, both in the OG and in Nightbringer, the brothers' fate was significantly softer. Yes, it was harsh, and yes it was beyond traumatizing. But they at least had a chance. They had the room to adapt, and grow, and heal, and overcome. And to a degree, they already have. All things considered, it was a pretty tame punishment compared to what Father was fully ready to dish out on their sister.

...which is why I think Father had nothing to do with it at all.

In Season 3, Luke specifically implies that it was Michael who cast the brothers down.

This could have been ignorance on Luke's part- he wasn't alive back then so he could be misconstruing details from what he's heard- but I don't think so. Not only do more traditional biblical media often portray Michael as the one to cast Lucifer down as well, but even in Obey Me itself, the idea of Father being responsible for it (either doing it himself or ordering Michael to) just doesn't add up.

It's not just that the punishment seems unlike him. That's a large part of it, but there's also another hint from Nightbringer that feels like a dead giveaway.

...I'm sorry, but that just makes absolutely no sense. Even by the Celestial Realm's clearly wacked-out mindset, it makes no sense. Why would the Celestial Realm be angry at the Devildom for taking in the people they themselves sent there?

...unless it wasn't the Celestial Realm's decision at all.

Michael wasn't supposed to do what he did.

So why did he do it?

Remember what I said earlier, about how it seemed out-of-character for Father to give the brothers such a weak punishment. I think it's far more likely that Father wanted them either dead or sentenced to the same fate as Lilith.

And I think Michael couldn't do it.

Imagine you're Michael in this situation. You're fighting this war, against your own brother, who you love deeply. In the heat of the moment, you're about to finally stab him and... then you realize.

Why are you doing this?

You can't do it. You can't kill him.

But you can't just back away. Lucifer is already consumed by the heat of the moment; if you let your guard down for even a second, he's not going to realize you're no longer fighting, he's just going to see a chance to go in for the kill. And even if he doesn't, even if he miraculously calms down in the face of everything, what fate awaits him? If you don't do this, what will Father do to him? It won't be a quick and easy death; that's for sure.

You look around. The other six are also fighting against other angels. You see your other brothers and sisters tearing each other apart, just as you and Lucifer were. You realize you can't bear to kill your own brother, and you can't bear to let anyone else die either.

You need to stop it somehow. And there's only one way to make that happen.

You have to get the seven of them as far away from the Celestial Realm as possible.

It's the only way. That's the only way to end the bloodshed. That's the only way to end the war without execution.

Where do you send them?

The one place they have a friend, of course.

You knew about Lucifer and that demon prince. You knew. You know your brother; he isn't as slick as he thinks he is. You weren’t an idiot; you knew there was no way Father was sending Lucifer down for “diplomatic meetings” that often. You played dumb, you turned the other cheek, but you always knew. And now, you just had to hope that whatever unholy bond they had ran deep enough for Lord Diavolo to help him in the wake of what you were about to do next.

You back away, and you cast your magic. You watch them plummet, eyes glazed with shock and emptiness. Raphael stares at you in disbelief.

"Michael, what did you do?!"

"I don't know."

And that is that.

In short, I don't think the brothers' damnation was a punishment. I believe it was the desperate act of someone who didn't want anyone to die. I believe it was the lesser of many evils, in a situation where there was no right answer. I believe it was an act of mercy.

#obey me great celestial war #obey me celestial realm #obey me michael #obey me lucifer #obey me theories #obey me headcanons #obey me speculation

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moinstar · 1 year

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What if Diavolo knows as soon as he touches MC and appoints them to serve the brothers?

Just added a little color for my demon!MoinMC

#obey me game #obey me nightbringer #speculation only!#mini comic #obey me mc #moin mc #obey me diavolo #obey me lucifer

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strangebiology · 2 months

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Seraphim Angel Anatomy

What are our thoughts on the anatomy of a seraph angel with 6 wings? How does that work? (Outside of it being magic. Let's have fun with science.)

The biblical description of the six-winged Seraphim angels is super minimal (Isa 6:2, 6, with some interpretation here.) But let's just say for reasons they look like people with 6 wings.

To start: What is a seraph related to? In both biblical and Hazbin Hotel lore, it's implied that (maybe some?) angels can breed with humans, which suggests that they're mammals, and very close to humans. But...I wonder if that has to do with shapeshifting or other magic? Bible nerds chime in. It's also just as interesting/valid to consider bug anatomy, and I encourage bug artists to draw a human-ish body with wings attached in dragonfly or spider style or something.

A number of people have explored the concept of angel anatomy by looking at humans and birds, like DCRoleplays on Deviantart. I also recall this image by Uzlo on Deviantart pointing out that you need pectoral muscles to move your arms/wings, so...if you have two arms and two wings, all of which move independently, you might need four pecs.

Alternatively, here's an extremely cool gif by @squidlife-crisis showing a human ribcage with human arms, the keel of a bird, and what looks like layered pectoral muscles for arms and wings. So, rather than multiple visible chests, an angel with the skin on would appear to just have a bigger chest.

But now add MORE wings. Would we have a huge chest with lots of layers of pecs attached to the keel...and would you need to change the shape of the keel to handle so many attachments?

Or, is someone gonna draw Lucifer or the other seraphim with 8 pecs? Will it be me? For science, obviously.

What are your thoughts?

#Anatomy #Speculative Anatomy #Speculative Biology #Angels #Seraphim #Hazbin Hotel #lucifer morningstar #I think a big reason I liked furry art in the past was because it was this creative exploration of anatomy #There were all these different ways to combine human and animal elements #Furry art is where I learned of the terms plantiograde #digitograde #and ungulagrade #So while regular animal art is wonderful #Furry art involves a certain creativity

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ineffablyruined · 6 months

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On this episode of things that keep me up at night:

I wonder if we'll get a mirror of how Aziraphale was manipulated by the Metatron, but with Crowley, in s3.

Picture it:

Crowley's only friend for the last 6000 years has just rejected him and left him behind.

Lucifer shows up with a bottle of gin, which, okay it's not his favorite, but the thought is nice, right? And whatever he has to say must be super important for the Devil himself to show up just to speak with a demon with no affiliation to Hell.

And he starts praising Crowley. How right Crowley was to stop the first Armageddon, even if Lucifer hadn't seen it at the time. Hell was understaffed after all, they would have been decimated. How strategic Crowley's mind is. How brilliant he'd been at his temptations.

The Second Coming will wipe out Earth and demons alike. And wouldn't Crowley consider coming back to Hell to work with him to stop it again? They need someone with experience stopping these things, someone who knows how the Earth works better than anyone.

And then he starts talking about how toxic Heaven is. How he heard that Crowley's angel compatriot returned to the fold. How worried Crowley must be about his friend.

If Crowley will just come back, Lucifer will make sure that nothing happens to the angel. Hell will guarantee that if Aziraphale falls (through no fault of his own, of course, it's just that Heaven is so fickle like that, just look at Crowley's own fall), or even if he doesn't fall, but just needs a safe harbour from Heaven, he will have a safe place waiting for him in Hell. Protected.

Maybe it feels just like hanging out with Luci and the guys all those ages ago before the Fall, before the War. Maybe someone actually wants him around.

How is he supposed to turn down help saving the world when his usual partner is gone? How is he supposed to turn down an offer of safety for Aziraphale if it all goes sideways, like he knows Heaven will.

And maybe later he understands how Aziraphale could have gone back to Heaven, because he just did the same thing with Hell.

#good omens #good omens meta #is this meta or speculation or both?#goodomensmeta #good omens speculation #gos3 speculation #gos3 #crowley good omens #good omens crowley #crowley #lucifer #good omens satan #go crowley #manipulation #aziraphale x crowley #crowley x aziraphale #ineffable idiots #mirroring each other

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cassandralie · 9 months

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Muriel, the Dimmest Little Morningstar

Maybe the question isn't "was Crowley Lucifer?" but who else was also Lucifer? After all, there was more than one Morningstar

or, as Crowley put it more casually,

he doesn't remember them, of course, probably due to Book of Life fuckery, just like he doesn't remember Fufur and Saraquel, who were also probably in the Morningstar Legion (that or the rebels called themselves Morningstars).

Which is why he also doesn't remember Muriel and Muriel also doesn't remember him. Both of them had their memories altered by the Book of Life*

*Sub Theory: the Book of Life erases who you were, makes it so you never existed... but you don't disappear or die. You become someone new. Hopefully this theory doesn't implode later--yeah, that's right, I made that sub joke instead of the other kind involving um...sandwiches.

But, just like Pepperidge Farms, the Metatron remembers.

he didn't say the "dumb" one, or the "stupid" one. Maybe to be polite. But "dim" isn't very polite either. It's just slightly less on the nose than the "not very bright one", aka the Dimmest Morningstar

But what happened to Muriel and their original memories? The same thing that was going to happen to Gabriel, obviously!

Muriel is basically a junior reporting angel. Sorry, scrivener. A no one and they know it.

Ranked so low they didn't know there was a rank under (which there probably wasn't until the Metatron wanted to punish Gabriel)

whatever Muriel did Before the Fall, whatever their name used to be, the Metatron didn't get rid of them because:

that's right, Neil Gaiman the Metatron will need Muriel for his evil plans, probably involving thee Second Coming and another apocalypse.

maybe to keep them out of the way, or maybe because they have power he's waiting for the right moment to unlock.

But he does make sure it's still locked.

Other people have explained that the book is about pieceing together fragments of the past* Maybe Muriel will remember who they are? Remember who Crowley is? Remember what really happened to cause the War in Heaven, the Fall, all that?

Maybe they will remember just in time to stop the Second Coming and the Second Armageddon--with help from our divorced dads, of course.

(*also a missing uncle - Crowley? A fellow Morningstar.

*also an estranged father with a belief in a higher power - Aziraphale? the Metatron?

*and also an exploded Grandmother - God? Muriel's previous identity?)

For further evidence, please note the star and crown on their helmet and recall "everything is meant" TM

This looks like a former Prince of Heaven, Morningstar Legion to me

And that is my theory :)

(if anyone said this first, sorry! All credit to you!)

Now, I'm no published author and barely anyone reads my fics (but the ones who do are Real Ones-- I love ya'll), so I have zero street cred here, and am probably so off the mark my dart hit the wall instead of the dart board, but I wanted to share my thoughts anyway and see what everyone thinks. Please let me know!

(Bonus Crack Theory: Muriel's original name was Lucy/Luci/Luciel. Combine with Fufur, that would make a Lucifer with bad demon spelling Lucyfur.)

#gos2 spoilers #gos2spoilers #gos3 speculation #good omens meta #muriel theory #the Metatron #Crowley #Aziraphale #not coffee theory or crowley is lucifer theory but a third even weirder theory #cassandratruths

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andsomemaniacgotridofthewheel · 1 month

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One possible plot line for season 3 I have heard about was "Heaven misplaced Baby Jesus", which would be neat because it would actually explain why Heaven needed Aziraphale the incompetent principality rebellious angel saboteur traitor to take charge of the search. He knows Earth, and he has experience in finding a misplaced (Anti-)Christ.

But a) lost Anti-Christ has already been done in book & season 1

And b) the Jesus of the Second Coming is supposed to arrive in his fully adult form, not as a baby.

And suddenly it popped into my head: what if Jesus wasn't misplaced but instead very deliberately pulled a Lucifer? (Not the Good Omens Lucifer, Lucifer Morningstar from the show Lucifer, which is based on the Lucifer from Sandman.)

What if he said, you know what Mom, I'm done, I'm not helping to destroy the world and judge people, I'm going on vacation, booked a flight (on Thy Kingdom Airways?) and will be at the beach with a martini. Pretty sure I've earned it. So long! ... and don't call.

And then Crowley & Aziraphale have to find him first because without him they also cannot stop this 2nd Apocalypse!

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asongoftearsandfandoms · 2 months

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I notice that through all the discourse I find scrolling through the Tumblr tags about Alastor is that people don't really talk about what his character's point in the narrative is.

I can't remember the specific name of the character type, but I found a list of character types, and it's kind of an amalgamation of these: Doubter, rival, charmer, enigma, meddler, skeptic, pessimist, the shadow.

He's not trying to be an antagonist, and he's not quite a foil (well, maybe to Vox).

His role is to provide helpful opposition to his allies (especially the Morningstars).

It's like that friend that sees you're down and instead of trying to offer kind words, says "yeah, you're right. You suck, you're the worst, you never would have done a good job anyways. You were always going to fail. I mean, prove me wrong!" It switches your self-loathing and defeatedness to resolute determination.

Think about it. In the Pilot, he aids Charlie in making the hotel more desirable, but he openly tells her he thinks she's going to fail.

But think about when he shows up. Charlie has just suffered a huge public embarrassment and morale crush.

She's literally still sitting there moping when he knocks on the door.

He simultaneously declares his intent to assist her in this endeavor and starts trashing on sinners and how he thinks it'll never work. And look at the effect it has on Charlie:

She was nervous and somewhat uncertain before, but her stubbornness kicks in and she's motivated to prove him (and everyone else) wrong.

Let's look at another time he antagonized someone into doing better.

Lucifer shows up, depressed and unmotivated and having obviously been an absent father for a while. Alastor hones in on this, possibly before he even showed up (based on Charlie's hesitation and phone call with him).

It looks like jealousy on the surface, a pissing contest between two dominant males, but when has Alastor ever shown interest in being a father figure to Charlie before? Or expressed desire to be anything resembling family? But you know who does desperately want to be family to Charlie? Lucifer. Alastor immediately recognizes this is a sore point for Lucifer and needles those exact points, putting pressure on.

What does this do? Fires Lucifer up and makes him want to push back by actively taking back the role of being Charlie's father, and wanting to help Charlie with whatever he can give her, both materially with the hotel and emotionally as a father.

And look how proud this man looks. This isn't a face of jealousy or frustration that he lost against Lucifer, this is the pleased look of a job well done.

He knew exactly what he was doing. Lucifer wanted to reconnect with Charlie, but without that push from this tiny little Overload who thinks he's hot shit, who knows if he would have fought for her. The antagonizing pushed him from depressed passive longing to motivated actions.

Alastor's narrative role is helpful opposition to the protagonists, through providing doubt, being a rival, and posing as a meddler, skeptic, pessimist. He charms his way around, using connections and pure power to support the hotel. Why would he defend the hotel if he wanted it to fail? He could have just sat back and laughed. It's because even if he doesn't have an investment on seeing the ultimate goal of the hotel succeed, he does have some level of investment in seeing those inside get/do/be better.

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correlance · 2 months

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The Seven Archangels in "Hazbin Hotel"

We can probably make an educated guess of who the angels in this image are, based off of the Seven Archangels in Biblical folklore:

Michael, Archangel of Mercy ("Michael the Merciful")

Gabriel, Herald of Visions, and Archangel of Justice

Uriel, Guardian of the Garden of Eden, Archangel of Knowledge and Wisdom

Chamuel (Camael), Archangel of Hope

Raphael, Archangel of Peace and Healing

Jophiel, Archangel of Beauty and Art

Zadkiel, Archangel of Kindness (likely replacement for Lucifer)

Of these, most are male, but Uriel is sometimes feminized as "Urielle, Eurielle or Orielle". I could see Jophiel, Chamuel (Camael), and Zadkiel being female, nonbinary, or agender, depending on design.

The main four are Michael, Raphael, Gabriel, and Chamuel:

"And the Lord said to Gabriel: 'Proceed against the bastards and the reprobates, and against the children of fornication: and destroy [the children of fornication and] the children of the Watchers from amongst men [and cause them to go forth]: send them one against the other that they may destroy each other in battle: for length of days shall they not have.'" — 1 Enoch 10:9 [...] "And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named [Chamuel].' And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days." — Enoch 40:9

From this, we can discern that Gabriel, Archangel of Justice, likely authorized the exterminations of Hell under Adam and Lute.

My thoughts are that each of the Archangels governs one of the Seven Paths, which "winners" can devote themselves to in Heaven:

Michael - Path of Mercy (Heaven's bureaucrats)

Gabriel - Path of Justice (Adam, Lute, Vaggie)

Uriel - Path of Wisdom (Heaven's scientists + philosophers)

Chamuel - Path of Hope (Heaven's priests + therapists)

Raphael - Path of Healing (Heaven's doctors + nurses)

Jophiel - Path of Beauty (Heaven's artists)

Zadkiel - Path of Kindness (angels who help humanity)

#hazbin hotel #hazbin hotel theory #hazbin hotel speculation #seven archangels #book of enoch #lucifer morningstar #hazbin hotel lucifer

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luckykittysshowerthoughts · 5 months

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Micheal's character is so depressing and so relatable at the same time. Also I wonder what your take is on his and luci's relationship, since they seem pretty close in celestial realm then in nb we see Michael highkey struggling which i don't blame bc he essentially lost 7 siblings at once (including lilith) then in og micheal is still very attached even though he isn't as bad as in nb. I just want your thoughts (you're the only one of 3 including my friend that I trust on Michael analysis/characterization)

First off, thank you so much for listening to my ramblings and praising them so. It's making this hyperfixating little freak very happy

Now, into the analysis. Though, this one is less an analysis and more me compiling everything canon has told us so far, because there's actually a lot there. It's just so spread apart over the course of the story that a lot of people miss the forest for the trees (which I think is another reason Michael as a whole is so misunderstood by the fandom), so it's nice to have a little overview.

Michael and Lucifer's Relationship

It was very nice to see the brotherly tones of Lucifer and Michael's relationship before the war. They seemed to have a typical friendly rivalry, and it was really cute to hear of the two messing with each other in very sibling-like ways.

One example I can think of off the top of my head was angel Lucifer camping out at the site of Michael's new observatory on the night before its grand opening, just to stick it to Michael that he got to his much-anticipated event first. That felt very much like a "little shit sibling" moment.

There was also Michael teasing Lucifer about his wings:

There was also the two of them attempting to pin Father's assignments onto each other, as Lucifer explains here:

They seemed to have a healthy dose of sibling rivalry to their relationship, and it was honestly really adorable.

It's also very clear that the two respected each other greatly. In Season 3, Mammon goes into detail about how much Michael loved Lucifer:

And in Nightbringer, angel Lucifer clearly held Michael in high regard- he seemed to believe Michael was more worthy mentor of Mammon, that he could give Mammon a better shot than he could.

However... I also think their relationship was always a bit dysfunctional. In Nightbringer we see a lot more of how obsessive Michael is- not even just in the wake of his grief after the fall, but even before that. Like this anecdote of Michael constantly sneaking into Lucifer's room:

Now, that's a clear violation of boundaries if I ever did see one. While the two were close, I think it's pretty clear Michael was a little too attached to Lucifer, and that likely caused problems in their relationship even before war broke out. We did get an explanation for this behavior in Season 3 of the OG, though that only paints an even more dysfunctional picture:

Michael idolizing Lucifer to this degree, and projecting himself onto him, is clearly not healthy. And I think Lucifer very well understood that, considering Satan is speaking from his memories of Lucifer's perspective here.

Another remark in Season 3 from angel Lucifer himself indicates that Lucifer didn't exactly see Michael as someone he could confide in:

All in all, I think their relationship was very complicated- as most relationships in Obey Me are. I think they both loved each other deeply, but Michael is the type of person to love a little too hard and that created problems.

Going into speculation territory now, I also think their relationship was tainted by their status in the Celestial Realm and the expectations that were placed upon them. I elaborated on this a little more in this post, but to summarize, I believe Michael is the eldest brother who had a rough time living up to the title while watching Lucifer become everything an eldest sibling "should" be. I think Michael was under a lot of pressure that he wasn't quite mature enough to handle properly, and he knew it. Meanwhile, Lucifer was also pushed to be a perfect, flawless Seraph, the pride and joy of the Celestial Realm- and the perfectionism instilled in him by their father only promoted Michael's idolization of him. We have one brother incredibly insecure with the way he presents himself, leaning on the image of perfection created by an equally insecure brother. It's a self-perpetuating cycle.

I also suspect that Father may have played favorites between the two. I don't have any real concrete evidence of this, but something I've been thinking about lately are the Ring of Light and the Ring of Wisdom, which were created for Lucifer and Michael respectively. In official merch (and possibly in-story as well I don't remember), the Ring of Light is shown to be gold, while the Ring of Wisdom is described to be made of brass and iron. Yeah... if this was intentional I think it's pretty clear who the favorite was here. Come on, at least give Michael silver. I don't think Michael is petty enough to be upset about this specifically, he's not Barb, but it might be indicative of a larger problem in the family dynamic. If Father favored Lucifer, that could also be an explanation for Michael's strange idolization of him.

#obey me michael #obey me lucifer #obey me angels #obey me celestial realm #obey me character analysis #obey me theories #obey me headcanons #obey me speculation

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its-queenofthesilence · 2 months

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I feel by series end, Emily's and Charlies positions will change

The theory is that by series end, Emily will fall yes, but Charlie will ascend. Or become god. Either or. Basically swap spots. Evidence: Sera warns Emily about the threat of falling, while in the intro for Season 1 when Charlie is telling the viewers about her parents' backstory and the extermination, her silhouette is displayed in white like the angels.

Idk, call it just a hunch. But she giving me Madoka (in terms of ascending) vibes.

#theory #hazbin #hazbin hotel #lucifer #lilith #lucifer morningstar #charlie morningstar #angels #demons #emily #emily hazbin hotel #charlie hazbin hotel #ascension #falling #fallen emily #seraphim charlie #speculation #fan theory

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thesherrinfordfacility · 9 months

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Longwinded anon again. It's very easy to see where Aziraphale needs to get his act together/get therapy in regards to his belief in Heaven's essential goodness (and it was always very odd to see fans believing that four years would have been sufficient, narrative-wise, for that to happen--four years is nothing to characters who are immortal). Crowley, though, is still doing one of the most toxic things on his side of the relationship: he's being over-protective. In S1, the "damsel in distress" bits, which I know some fans like to romanticize, are harmful to both characters, because they make Crowley feel like he's doing something heroic when he isn't (every rescue in S1 is unnecessary) and encourage Aziraphale to abandon his agency. In the narrative arc, Aziraphale's discorporation, which Crowley fails to stop, is liberating. He does his conscientious objector bit, chucks himself out of Heaven, kicks Crowley out of his depression in the bar, vanishes the soldier, and then has to forcibly remind Crowley at the airfield that /now/, in fact, Crowley needs to do something or there will be irreversible consequences. And then they rescue each other through the body swap.

S2 doesn't have the big swoopy rescue scenes, aside from the 1941 replay, but what it does have is Crowley withholding key information that might well have altered Aziraphale's behavior. He clearly hasn't been forthright about what Gabriel really said at the execution, and he never gets around to mentioning that Aziraphale has put himself in danger of being zapped out of existence by Heaven. (This is very PRIDE & PREJUDICE: Lydia elopes with Wickham in part because her older sisters don't publicize his bad behavior.) Again, he thinks of himself as Aziraphale's protector, and while Aziraphale knows that Crowley likes to protect him--he even says so--in S2 he doesn't fully understand what Crowley is protecting him from. Nina asks Aziraphale why he doesn't stick up for himself, and he shows once again that he can, but in S2 Crowley thinks it's his job to keep Aziraphale safe from any real Heaven-sent nastiness that might puncture his innocence. Which prevents Aziraphale from evaluating his choices once the Metatron shows up.

(As for S3: Gaiman does appear committed to getting them together in their cottage, so I don't think a permanent breakup is on the horizons. I do think something drastic has to happen, whether becoming mortal, becoming a "new" sort of immortal being tied to Earth rather than Heaven and Hell, Aziraphale delivering a full-bore public rejection of Heaven with attendant consequences, etc.)

Longwinded Anon✨, light of my life, you are officially driving me insane with these asks (screenshots of others under the cut); there is so much fascinating insight to talk about. first of all, though, welcome back and i hope you are also Surviving following s2!✨

these two characters are two of the most fun to dissect and examine. they are hugely multifaceted, and every time i watch s2 and ruminate on them, there is more and more to find. the below is the result of those ruminations, and i feel the obligation to warn anyone reading that it is going to be a very, very long one, so ✨buckle tf up✨

further messages from Longwinded Anon✨, my beloved:

aziraphale: insecurity

to me, one of the key tenets of aziraphale's character is a deep-seated and complete sense of insecurity and lack of self-esteem. and it's not unfathomable to think that he's had a lack of self-worth for some time, carrying all the way through to the Feral Domestic™ (FD). bear in mind that all of the below is without reference to the pre-fall scene, which ill cover separately later on.

there is however the fairly obvious element that heaven and the archangels completely disregard aziraphale, and are condescending and reductive in how they perceive and interact with him. aziraphale, i think, adopted this mindset pretty heavily in s1 - one such example being the "I'm soft" line - and it is further explored in s2, but specifically at the later end.

aziraphale in s2 seems much more self-possessed and 'together', and a key element of that shift is not only his liberation from heaven, but also that he somewhat starts to see himself through crowley's eyes as possibly being worthy of being loved. i think that he starts to think of himself as, in fact, having intrinsic value.

this is shown, in particular, in s2 by the contrast between ep2's rock scene (where he starts to question the depth of his angelic allegiance, and that he might have actually done the right thing by following his own personal conviction and helping save job's children), and the majority of ep5 (ie. his absolutely astounding - by aziraphale standards - amount of confidence in himself to get him and the ball attendees out of demonic danger).

this is brought to a head though by shax's comments in ep5, where she really drives a stake into the core of aziraphale's insecurity. she remarks on his propensity for indulgence (sushi/meals), his tendency to be overtrusting and naive ("softest touch"), his lack of traditional angelic quality ("went native"), and the question of what exactly crowley feels for him ("emotional support angel").

setting aside Michael's acting - which was truly mesmerising in this one little scene, probably one of his set-pieces in the show, honestly - that tells us that this really got to him, we know from everything we have seen of aziraphale in GO that these are likely thoughts that he has repressed, or pretends are not conceivable when they absolutely are.

my final interpretation of aziraphale's insecurity, however, is not necessarily that he thinks he is without value or merit whatsoever, but that he is not enough.

he's good enough to guard the eastern gate, but not good enough to keep adam and eve from temptation. he's good enough to guard and monitor the antichrist, but not enough to be truly accepted as part of the heaven hive (his physical sentry post on earth notwithstanding). he's good enough for crowley to run away with to alpha centauri, but not enough to convince crowley to choose to stay and fight with him to prevent the apocalypse.

this starts to wane in s2, and he's noticeably more happy and confident... right up until ep6 when he's good enough to be loved by crowley enough to spend eternity with, but not enough for crowley to sacrifice his hang-ups with heaven and help him rebuild it as a team so noone else ever has to suffer what they both did.

the lines however in ep6 that particularly broke my heart, because aziraphale literally conveys this whole painful, bleeding part of his psyche to crowley, are the following:

a: "if im in charge, i can make a difference."

a: "i don't think you understand what im offering you."

whatever the motive behind metatron's offer to aziraphale (and therefore calling into question the sincerity of his compliments to aziraphale), aziraphale has literally just been told that not only does someone who - whichever way you slice it - is the highest being in heaven that he has the ability to run it, but he has the ability to completely gut and rebuild it for the better.

harking back to ep1 with crowley's statement that aziraphale only calls him for three reasons, one of which is telling crowley something clever ie. his own achievements, it does make me wonder how often this scenario truly happens. maybe it does happen often, but what does aziraphale actually consider to be an achievement? something to be proud of himself for, that is purely reflective of his ability and - by extension - worth?

when aziraphale tells crowley that he might be misunderstanding what aziraphale is offering him, i don't interpret it as anything to do with restoring crowley; instead, i just see aziraphale telling crowley that he is offering up absolutely everything that he is, every single atom and aspect of him, and all crowley has to do is trust him enough to take it. he is saying that he will love crowley, and crowley can be free to love him, but only, in aziraphale's eyes, if crowley can accept aziraphale as he is; that he is enough.

during this whole part of the scene, crowley won't even look at him. won't even face him, sunglasses or not, and acknowledge what aziraphale is saying, right up until this line. you can visibly see that aziraphale starts to get angry that the one person who made him feel any self-worth might in fact have never seen him as good enough in the first place, that crowley didn't in fact love every part of him, and was choosing to cherrypick the aspects of aziraphale that suited crowley, rather than the whole.

this snippet of the scene is compounded by being sandwiched by these two crowley lines which, in my eyes, really highlighted that crowley is in fact only choosing to accept aziraphale in small measures, and that other elements of him are not enough:

c: "...you're better than that, angel!"

c: "you idiot, we could have been us."

aziraphale is enough exactly as he is; he's not perfect and certainly not wholly complete, but for crowley to dig at aziraphale by intimating that he is not reaching the bar that crowley has set for him - potentially subconsciously - is likely be the true end for how much stock aziraphale put in crowley's perception of him, and by extension the worth that he thought he had in crowley's mind. instead, aziraphale is now left to find a way of building his sense of self-worth all by himself - and does so by stepping into that lift.

crowley: salvation

im not going to necessarily talk about all the times that crowley demonstrates an almost pathological need to be aziraphale's saviour, because frankly Longwinded Anon✨ has that covered. but as with all things GO-related, i think it's important to try to understand why.

i truly think that a cornerstone of crowley's romanticism is deeply rooted in the concept of salvation. now, we know that he doesn't appear to give a flying fuck about salvation from heaven, but he certainly seems to put a great deal of import on being aziraphale's hero, and later he seems to question a great deal when aziraphale essentially finds a hero elsewhere.

as LW Anon✨ said, aziraphale is very cognizant that crowley likes to play hero where he's concerned, and seems simultaneously resigned and excited by the matter; resigned because actually, sometimes, aziraphale is smart or powerful enough to keep himself safe, but excited because this is possibly the epitome of how crowley expresses his love for him.

aziraphale shows that he is fully aware of this characteristic of crowley's, and whilst he does play into it (which we saw throughout all of s1e3) to 'make crowley happy' (and, dare i say, also because at this point it is the supernatural, sex-less interpretation of centuries-long foreplay) in s2 it almost starts to become neglectful, overbearing, and dismissive of - as LWA✨ says - any true agency that aziraphale has built since breaking from heaven. this, incidentally, is highlighted in the following exchange:

c: "im gonna get the humans out of here and then im coming back, i won't leave you on your own."

a: "i know, but i have a suggestion-"

c: [interrupts] "ive got this."

whether crowley feels like he is missing any genuine overture from heaven to apologise for making him fall for a minor infraction, or he feels guilty about something that he did (ie possibly what made him fall) and is making his own reparations in the outlet of constantly being aziraphale's saviour, the one that is certain is that crowley has to feel needed, and by extension - loved.

he does have a nasty habit of putting aziraphale down (which ill talk about next), however much in jest, and placing aziraphale constantly under his metaphorical wing. aziraphale going so far in s1 to actually work out the apocalypse and proceed to take what he believes is the right action to prevent it on his own must have, by extension, sent crowley reeling - if aziraphale can in fact look after himself, where does that leave crowley? what else, in crowley's eyes, could he possibly bring to the table that would make aziraphale want to keep him? love him?

i think that this is crowley's own brand of insecurity; that unless he is performatively saving aziraphale and protecting him from harm, and actively dismissing aziraphale's ability to protect himself sufficiently enough, he has no discernible quality that aziraphale would want. so instead he tries to make himself so integral to aziraphale's survival so that aziraphale has no choice but to keep him.

the fact that aziraphale saves himself in s1, and they then reflectively save each other, did wonders for aziraphale in progressing as a character. however, in crowley, i feel that this frightened him so emotionally that it regressed his character somewhat. all coming to the climax of when aziraphale, in good faith, offers crowley the chance at salvation for himself, crowley vehemently refuses it and takes it to insult. there are many other valid and understandable reasons why crowley rejects the prospect, but one of them to me is that it would leave crowley's fundamental role in aziraphale's existence as completely redundant.

both: demonstrating love

essentially what i put in an ask recently, but needed referencing here too.

leading on from crowley and his hero/saviour complex: the thing is that these are two diametrically opposing people in all but a handful of aspects. crowley by large is usually the more obviously demonstrative in his affection, borne out of many different reasons, and he is the ultimate Acts of Service (ft. Quality Time) dude. aziraphale tends to be more subtle, with Looks and Words, in how he displays his, so let's give him the Words of Affirmation (ft. QT) crown.

in s2, it seems to me that this hasn't really changed, but they are starting to cross over into speaking the language that the other understands. and to me, this comes to a head by the time of the ep5, and the ep6 FD. so obviously crowley has finally bridged into verbally demonstrating to aziraphale how he feels. aziraphale did the same action but mirrored by - however misguided - offering crowley the chance to be restored.

but neither want what the other is giving; they want what the other usually does to show their affection. aziraphale wants crowley to demonstrate his willingness to be with aziraphale by coming with him to heaven, and crowley wants aziraphale to acknowledge what he is telling aziraphale and respond in kind. neither are at fault for wanting that; they have simply demonstrated their devotion to each other in different ways, but those ways have been quite damaging.

crowley does do a lot for aziraphale, that can't be denied, but AoS is way more demonstrative, and yet it's easy to miss what those acts are actually saying. WoA can be more casual but the words you choose speak volumes... "our car/bookshop", "id love for you to help me", "my friend crowley", etc.

whilst i don't necessarily subscribe to the psychology of love languages, they're useful for this sort of analysis. aziraphale does even branch out in other languages; he is constantly touching crowley this season; the pub, the ball, the bookshop in early ep6. quality time is a given, and has always been their common ground. giving gifts im not so sure on, but i think the significance of readily offering crowley the bookshop as being his - something that was wholly aziraphale's, not heaven's, and is aziraphale's own sanctuary - spoke volumes.

specifically in ep5 however, aziraphale really goes ham in demonstrating to crowley how he sees love, defines it, and that he could give this to crowley - the pinnacle of this being the dance and the evident romantic implications of it... it summarises all of aziraphale's own romantic idealistic make-up; touching, intimate conversation, choosing crowley as his partner, romantic literature, classical music, etc.

and whilst comedic and obviously reflective of crowley being otherwise preoccupied re: demon incursion, i also thought that the physical imagery of aziraphale literally dragging him to the dancefloor, and crowley questioning when they've ever danced in the past, was particularly telling about crowley's reaction to how aziraphale is trying to convey to him, without saying the words, that he loves him.

aziraphale in s2 truly does give crowley everything that he can. his love is quiet, and gentle, and romantic, and whilst not as high stakes as saving aziraphale's life, it is still valid. however, it seems that where aziraphale seems to have recognised his feelings quite early on and acknowledged them early on, having time to settle them into his soul (even if he couldn't act for fear of heaven), s2 seems to indicate that crowley refused to acknowledge his until the eleventh hour.

but crowley's love has been there all along, ticking away. ignoring his tendency to stick his oar in where it isn't needed (saving aziraphale and treating him as if he were made of glass), he shows his love in his own ways - following aziraphale around soho, silently supportive, admires him for calming down the bookshop and handling the IB situation, tidies the bookshop for him (which also possibly indicates that he's now finally accepting the bookshop as his home), etc.

both of them take a swan dive in the declaring-love endgame in ep6, but neither of them are responsive to the love language that they usually give. aziraphale is given words but wants actions, and crowley is given actions but wants words. the chronic lack of communication between the two of them throughout the show is the main contributing factor to this disconnect, and leads to serious ramifications in their ability to possibly mend it going into s3.

aziraphale: pre-fall

at the risk of daring to contradict LWA✨ in their assessment of aziraphale's feelings towards the angel-who-crowley-was (AWCW) in the pre-fall scene, upon reflection i don't get the sense that aziraphale falls in love with AWCW in this moment. and exactly as pointed out by @assiraphales, we don't have any of the gaps filled in between this scene and The Wall, so it's arguably unknown when exactly those feelings deepened.

there is definitely attraction of some kind (can angels experience physical attraction? presumably they do, if aziraphale thought the "gorgeous" comment was directed at him), an admiration of AWCW's abilities, and an immediate concern for AWCW's wellbeing if he were to question god. but i don't get the sense that he falls in love; more that he's bumped into a cool, attractive kid outside his locker and immediately starts spouting angelic heart eyes, and at the least develops an immediate fascination.

AWCW is presented as being rather classist in this scene, and whilst not outright maliciously rude, he definitely seems to look down on aziraphale, or consider him relatively inconsequential. which is odd, because i think if he actually listened to what aziraphale was telling him, aziraphale actually comes across as having his own brand of status. i can't imagine that any bog-standard angel would be entrusted with helping god with building Her ultimate creation, building humans, and being allowed to see the Great Plan. whilst maybe not the same level as AWCW, i think the fandom is underplaying aziraphale's own significance in this part of the story.

the fact remains however that the aziraphale we see in this scene is still the fundamental foundation of the aziraphale we see later on in the story. AWCW calls for him as he's wandering (rocketing) past, and aziraphale doesn't hesitate to come to AWCW's aid. he's presumably going somewhere, but prioritises helping someone who needs him, and does so out of kindness and then, it seems later on, out of attraction.

he recognises the achievement of AWCW's nebula, asks questions to learn more (and thus demonstrating his interest) of the construction and purpose of AWCW's craft, and outright compliments it for its brilliance and wonder. all behaviours that id say is rooted in wanting to establish a friendship, and meanwhile developing an arguably shallow crush.

i think that these are also general admirations that aziraphale brings forward as he gets to know crowley as a demon, but has to adjust his world-view that he may admire the principle if not the act; he thinks crowley is clever and fun and talented, even if he doesn't condone the new ways in which crowley displays this.

there are definitely times where aziraphale is still caught up in crowley being a good person and concluding that crowley must still be an angel in all but name, but i do not necessarily think that he thinks lesser of crowley as a demon out of maliciousness. i think it's hard for aziraphale to conflate the two ideas that a) crowley has moments of being a good person regardless of hellish or heavenly identity, and that b) crowley doesn't want to be an angel. aziraphale still parallels good with angelicness, holds being good (and therefore being an angel) as the epitome of character, and can't as a result understand that if they were given the opportunity to change and improve the bad bits of heaven, why crowley wouldn't want to help him.

as LWA✨ says, the further we see their story progress, it becomes clear that aziraphale then begins to hold himself above crowley morally, and this is largely lynch-pinned on their separate identities as an angel and demon respectively. aziraphale constantly bats crowley down and puts him back in his place throughout s1, but less so in s2; in this, id refer back to aziraphale's insecurity around his being a good enough angel, but now that we have the context of AWCW having been aziraphale's technical superior, doing this possibly helps him to feel better about himself. this is abhorrent behaviour and is not at all kind, that can't be denied, but i think it is however possible to empathise with it.

aziraphale has spent a long time having an endless reserve of love and not having a lot of places where he can meaningfully channel it. he's got humanity and earth, but whilst he certainly cares for it, it doesn't mean that he candidly loves it. he still feels kinship to heaven and the other angels, but he certainly doesn't love them. in fact the only person he's ever had to fully pour out his love has been into crowley, but faced with the prospect that crowley may still be like his angelic self in that regard (ie not love him back), i think that love has been repressed so much that it's almost atrophied and turned self-destructive and self-sabotaging. in that context, whilst awful and generally inexcusable, aziraphale's behaviour starts to make sense.

crowley: Lucifer theory

i will preface this by saying that despite initial excitement, i don't necessarily think that crowley was lucifer in the colloquialised sense that we regard lucifer in general culture, but perhaps more represents lucifer in the wider sense of having a story that mirrors the one we can somewhat attribute to lucifer. whether or not he will actually be named as lucifer i think is up for debate, but in any case let's take a look at what lucifer's story actually entailed.

now i realise that i am absolutely not an expert on the matter, but there are indeed a wealth of misinterpretations where lucifer as a biblical figure is concerned. i am very behind on this discussion, angelology (shudder) is not in my limited repertoire of specialist subjects, and i welcome anyone else adding in their thoughts on the matter.

but if anyone else has zero knowledge on lucifer, like me, we'll start with the basics as i see them. name coming from the Latin for light- or dawn-bringer, lucifer has been linked to the planet venus in various tellings in roman mythology. given the occasional bright illumination of the planet as seen from earth, this is in part where we coming to the moniker Morningstar when also historically referring to lucifer. so on this base level, we have the link between lucifer and crowley by way of celestial context.

now down to a potential mistranslation, the hebrew for the name of satan, helel, has become synonymous with the name lucifer, down to their respective translations akin to the Latin for 'light-bringer'/'morningstar' as above, but that does not necessarily indicate that lucifer and satan are the same being. so this is where im fairly confident in that whoever crowley was, which is possibly lucifer, his story ran parallel to that of the former relatively unknown being and not the latter more infamous one.

crowley has referenced lucifer in s1, which has led to the debunk that the two are the same being, but when rewatching it, i think it can be completely reinterpreted:

c: "i never asked to be a demon. i was just minding my own business one day and then... "oh lookie here, it's lucifer and the guys!"... ah, hey - the food hadn't been that good lately, i didn't have anything on for the rest of the afternoon..."

this doesn't need to mean that AWCW was the one who came across lucifer and cohort, but possibly that someone else did, or just exclaiming it in the general sense. getting whimsical in the headcanon space, AWCW may well have been enjoying his afternoon, chatting with friends that he thought he could trust, and thought he could share his thoughts on challenging how things are run (same as he did with aziraphale). evidently, whatever happened completely bit him on the arse, and at minimum partially resulted in his fall.

there are multiple references to crowley being at least an angel of import, almost too many to count. however a common theme in many references to venus in various religious and mythological texts is the concept of reaching for higher power, but to be cast down and punished for it. given the indication (iirc) from interviews and also the pre-fall scene that crowley was up for collaborating with god on how to improve things in heaven, it could stand to reason that in a moment of anger or frustration he voices the thought that he could do a better job running the place.

and if other angels were behind him in this, equally dissatisfied with their lot in heaven, and being set aside by god in favour of humanity, it similarly wouldnt be a huge leap to think that this one sentence, this singular half-baked thought, might have precipitated the war. following said war, as LWA✨ suggests, it would make sense that in an effort to lick his wounds and keep a low profile, crowley would take or accept a middling rank in hell, and possibly even volunteer for the assignment of original sin; all the more opportunity to remove himself completely from the narrative between heaven and hell.

which then, now that i think about it, completely recontextualises crowley's aversion to being a part in helping aziraphale rebuild heaven. why would he want to, why wouldn't he be petrified of it, when the last time went so badly? there must be a sense of resentment towards aziraphale in this regard - what makes aziraphale, a potentially lower angel, so special that he would be invited to completely revolutionise heaven, when all AWCW did was make suggestions, and end up being villified for it? if he did join aziraphale, and challenged him, would aziraphale then be forced to cast crowley out again? what would crowley stand to lose this time?

so this is where i think the concept of crowley having a huge secret that he's keeping from aziraphale comes into play, and i agree must come out in s3. it would completely derail any faith that aziraphale had in crowley, for him to have kept such vital information from him, his potential part in the fall. i could imagine aziraphale interpreting the reveal of this secret as being that crowley fooled and hoodwinked him, however false or unintentional that might have been, and it representing the last vestige of aziraphale's innocence and naivety being swept away.

edit, because @baggvinshield has put this theory so eloquently and with far more comprehension and education than i could hope for: Lucifer theory

there are so many more topics that i have sat in various documents and in my notes as concerns these two characters; aziraphale's obsession with control and 'playing god', their shared inability to communicate effectively and meaningfully, crowley and his propensity for unintentional temptation, whether the love between them truly equates to any semblance of trust, etc etc. some of these topics have been alluded to in the above, but i felt that the above essay might be sufficient reading for now. im adoring (if a little bemused by it) the amount of discussion this silly little blog is generating, and im always more than happy to share my thoughts on anything GO-related where people want it!!!

and now - back to answering the hundreds of asks that have accumulated whilst i've hyperfixated on the above. ta-rah!✨💓

#good omens #good omens season two #good omens spoilers #good omens 2 spoilers #good omens meta #good omens analysis #good omens speculation #not a shitpost but its good omens babyyyy #ask #the great go angelology debate of july 2023 #aka 'was crowley an archangel and was he raphael? answer: fuck knows'#the legend of the longwinded anon✨#🚨 lucifer theory🚨

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autumnmobile12 · 19 days

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You know, I don't think there's a complicated, specific reason why Alastor is so hostile to Lucifer right out of the gate.

Based on his expression here, I think it was a spur of the moment decision. "We haven't seen or heard of this guy in months and he comes in here playing the doting parent? Just what in the hell kinda hypocrisy bullshit is this?"

And that annoyed him enough to throw shade on principle.

#hazbin hotel #alastor #charlie morningstar #lucifer morningstar #headcanons #hazbin hotel speculation #radio demon #18+ series

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hazbinhotelmanagement · 2 months

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What if Lilith is planning on Charlie taking over Hell? She thinks that maybe she’ll toughen up if she’s gone. Lucifer is off playing with his ducks. Now, she’s gone too. Charlie has to take care of herself. Alastor is there to make sure it’s going well. He’s using it as a power grab.

“She’s bound to pass the test as Princess of Hell. Like her daddy, she is very powerful.” “She’s filled with potential that I could guide.” “I concur, stick with her and you’ll be on the winning side!”

What winning side? Against the extermination? Or is there another war brewing somewhere else? Maybe higher?

#hazbin #hazbin alastor #hazbin angel dust #hazbin charlie #hazbin hotel #hazbin husk #hazbin lucifer #hazbin spoilers #hazbin vaggie #hazbin vox #theory #speculation #helluva boss

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thetitsdontlie · 2 months

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The fact that Alastor of all people made a deal (by popular theory, with Lilith) that sealed a high percentage of his power is greatly intriguing to me. Alastor pretty much prides himself on being one of the most powerful sinners hell has ever seen. So why, my dear readers, would our dear Radio Demon, Alastor Altruist, seal his powers? I can see two possibilities personally. Either he was forced into the deal by his contractor, OR, my preferred theory, he'll be getting even more power out of the deal. (Possibly even enough to rival that of the royals of hell/higher angels) so. The question remains, if he gets power out of this deal, WHAT exactly is his contractor getting? If we do assume his contractor to be Lilith, it could be to keep Charlie safe, but then why seal his powers? If not to keep Charlie safe, then perhaps to simply keep her out of trouble? Improbable, due to his heavy involvement in the war. There's another deal we should keep in mind as well, likely struck between Lucifer and heaven, to keep all hell born safe during the extermination. Adam quite literally destroyed that rule, killing Dazzle and injuring Charlie. Though it is safe to assume deals were broken on both sides, which is why Lute is sending Lilith back down to hell. (Why's lady chilling in heaven anyway???) In order to mediate possibly? Hopefully this means, we get to know more about her relationship with Alastor, and the deets on their deal, come next season.