#loki & sylvie are basically twins
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I see you hate Sylvie so much and the Loki TV show too. why?
Okay, lemme break it down into a final, once-and-for-all peace speaking on the issue of the series and Sylvie. I'll try to make this as painless as possible.
1- Looking at it beyond the surface, she's not really interesting.
The term 'Mary Sue' gets thrown around a lot with Sylvie, and I kind of have to agree. She seems to be little more than a trope checklist.
-Sad background that motivates her actions? Check.
-Deep down she just wants to be loved? Check.
-Inexplicable instant "chemistry" with the male lead? Check.
-She's just so super special and important? Check.
But even so, there have been others with similar Sue-ish backgrounds that the MCU has managed to make into pretty decent characters, like Scarlet Witch in WandaVision. Arguably, both characters share some traits, but the writers of Wanda (at least before Multiverse of Mehhness) clearly knew how to bring those ideas into a twisted story of learning how to confront the past and to mourn with a character who still had something to learn.
In contrast, Sylvie really doesn't have any flaws to turn into a deep character study, does she? I think that's her second-biggest detriment (see below for the biggest). A good character is never perfect. A good character had flaws, wants, drives, and other things that make them imperfect but relatable. Sylvie is incredibly unrelatable.
Truly I believe she was written for the stans as a self-insert. She isn't even a decent one. I read fanfics on here with amazing examples of a good insert character, so it clearly can be done. Again, Sylvie ain't it.
2- Sylvie's existence both mocks the comics as well as Norse mythology as a whole.
Most of us anti-sylkis know this already, but in Norse mythology AND the Marvel canon that goes beyond the MCU, Loki has had several lovers and wives. Loki married and had three children with Angreboda, and then went on to have twins with wife Sigyn. In the comics, he also had a lover named Amora the Enchantress (which we ALMOST got in the MCU before her cameo was cut). Any one of these three would've made a fantastic romantic plot for Loki if the MCU *really* had the compulsion to go that route.
Alas, instead, the MCU kind of bastardized Amora, Sigyn, as well as another character from the comics named Sylvie, and combined them into TV!Sylvie. This not only means we will likely never see Amora or Sigyn in the MCU, it means they were replaced by an inferior on the same level as Randy from That 70s Show, who was also a sucky character created for the fans as an amalgamation of pre-existing characters.
3- She's just another in a long line of Loki-abusers.
Like, does she ever comfort him after all he does for her? Does she even really listen to him? Because from what I saw there was just a lot of this happening between them:
Jesus, lady. What has he done to make you such a jerk to him? I get you're supposed to be a #GuuurlBoss but that doesn't mean "be a total cunt to a man whenever you feel like it."
After all this time, if we really had to have a Loki character study series, why doesn't he get some respite from the fact that basically everyone he knows has either been cryptic and mysterious to him at best, and hostile/violent/malicious to him at worst?
THIS is probably the single biggest reason I loathe Sylvie. We're suppose to believe she's just being Miss Independent when she's really just bringing the poor god down even more than most. I feel like if she met Thor, he'd get upset at seeing how she treats him, and he'd be confused by how easily Loki just accepts it all.
4- I'm becoming more convinced Tom's only doing the show out of obligation, and that his creativity is being tossed aside for the sake of the series.
I normally don't like to speculate like some others do, but with more people (like Zoe Saldana) coming out and saying they felt repeatedly stifled by the MCU's yuckity-yucks in terms of character development, I definitely believe they're telling Tom to shut up and read the script. I mean, the guy probably knows as much Norse/Loki mythology as any scholar by this time, and he seems to be a really creative person by nature. They're tossing out a whole trove of potential.
I get he's got a family now and he needs to bring in some bacon, but 1- he and his fiancee are both prolific actors who could probably get any roles they wanted. Hell, Zawe's about to enter the MCU herself when The Marvels come out later this year. If she has a larger role in the next few phases, I hope to god they treat her better than they've treated Tom and Zoe and other actors. But I doubt it.
2- he's probably already richer than God
He's almost certainly trapped by contractual obligations at this point, and that fucking sucks, and yes, I blame the tv show for this.
So, in conclusion: this really is a train wreck of a show hidden behind a lot of smoke and mirrors. I'm not sorry to say it. Sylvie lacks any kind of genuine depth, and the writers seem both lost on where to take Loki's character arcs, and not interested.
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Okay so my general mru timetravel saga phase thing. + how I’m doing the YA.
Since I think focusing on timetravel instead of the multiverse would have been a better next saga since timetravel was set up formerly.
Also, champions and Runaways will likely feature but I need to defamiliarise myself with the comics to feel more comfortable deciding on HOW. But I’ll get to it, just not in this post.
(Ramble below the cut)
First Phase:
I would make the first phase AFTER endgame extremely chill. More grounded, focus on a smaller group of heroes and the affects of the snap. TFATWS would be my preferred first project but obviously could change when I go to write it. Maybe seven projects in all? Keep it small. Six main solo projects, an avengers team up. I want to make it clear that things aren’t running as smoothly as they could be post-Thanos, there’s a lot of tension, the team isn’t quite… teaming.
Steve shows up as cameos in TFATWS and the avengers teamup, but not to take away from the focus of Sam being the new Cap. He’s more of an… advisor. He has experience, but that’s all he’s got to offer. He’s done with the fight. I don’t think he should’ve died in endgame personally bc I think people need a main avengers to continue showing up to really keep their investment until another character proves worthy enough for focus.
Eli is the first Young Avenger to be included, which would make a whole ‘oooo Young avengers maybe??’ But he’s played off like a cameo that’s there because Isaiah is there, no need to rush into the YA.
Kamala is also showing up. Ms Marvel wouldn’t be a MAIN solo project and would be kind of hinted to be disconnected until Carol shows up in the last episode.
There will also probably be a Hawkeye series but I don’t want any of the YA to be heroes before the YA. So Kate will likely cameo but I don’t want her to be a Hawkeye yet. That’s YA stuff. It can wait.
Second Phase:
A little more funky now. The Marvels is a good guide to take for the balance of funky and grounded. Sure it’s in space but it’s a pretty typical movie, nothing too big. Of course, the marvels = Teddy introduction. I’ve not watched the movie yet (literally on the way there now) so I can’t promise how I’ll introduce him, but it’ll probably be a small ‘cameo type’ thing.
The phase starts on a lighter note but slowly degrades, the avengers are slipping apart. It ends on a Loki s1.
Introduction of Kid Loki also. And I’ll probably do Sylvie differently. But with the demolition of the sacred timeline, there comes chaos in the storyline.
Introduction of the champions might occur here, whilst things are still light and dandy. Depends on what I can swing.
Third Phase:
House of M. Wandavision, obviously, introduces the Twins. They’ll probably remain toddlers though, to keep them little and cute, plus terrible twos + superpowers would make it obvious she’s crazy when she CHOSE that. They’re the two YA introduced this phase, no America until the multiverse unfortunately.
The avengers are slowly falling apart even further, Loki s2, and then, bosh, kangs. Not THE Kang, though. Other kangs. Fighting aaa. Some avengers probably die, Scott definitely does. They win and have to fight THE Kang, don’t win, Kang escapes.
Idk how to explain my idea for that film considering I haven’t properly planned it. But, basic idea is that he WILL come back.
Phase four:
No avengers. They fell apart, like they did for infinity war. If things like this keep happening, there’s no point anymore. Womp womp everything sucks. Some people, like Sam, are trying to keep everyone together but it’s so… hard. They wonder if they’re really just making things worse. They probably are.
Yeah there are solo projects. But it’s mostly pretty dismal. They’re trying to prepare to fight kang but they know they’ll lose. In the final solo project, there’s an end credit scene. Someone in a suit appears in dark streets and picks up a loose newspaper. ‘The avengers disbanded’. In a robotic-ish voice: oh no.
And then, final avengers movie of the saga. Except… it opens up to kids being assholes and oh wait this is just an adaptation of the first Young Avengers comic with some more emphasis on the avengers. Why have a huge crossover movie when teenagers can stab people? This isn’t to say there won’t be any closure for other storylines, I just don’t think every storyline needs to end in an AVENGERS storyline. The big crossover movie will probably be phase 3’s big Kang gang up movie, with everyone fighting their own time travelling war lord. But Kang’s death belongs to Nate. So that’s how it’ll be. Other superhero team ups will probably happen. But the big bad will be slain by those who now carry the avengers torch. It’s to me the only way to actually get people interested in the Young Avengers.
Some post saga notes:
There are some things that will be included. Like fantastic four and Xmen. It’s just a little difficult to try and explain how they fit it without going into masses of detail.
The next saga will likely be multiverse based. The Young Avengers are pretty well prepped for that kind of storyline. I’ll likely reallocate TLAT to this saga. Multiverse works better for god-based movies than time travel. It’ll probably include Children’s Crusade and YA vol2 for some of the avengers movies.
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Why do you hate Sylvie but defend Wanda???
Listen, most of my dislike of Sylvie stems from how absolute garbage the show treats Loki and the creators are so convinced they made the best character while failing to put a lot of basic effort into writing and production.
I resent Sylvie for stealing focus from a character I've loved for a decade. Honestly, she could be written the same but have Loki written with respect and care and I would not be on this hate train.
Wanda's pain isn't being pitted against anyone else's. It's never framed to show how she had it so much worse. More importantly, we see where her pain comes from. We see the twins only having each other and caring about each other. We got to know Vision so we understand why it's painful for Wanda to not just lose him but be the one who has to kill him only for that to be a pointless act. That is real gut punch for the audience.
We just mostly told Sylvie a backstory. That makes less and less sense the more you think about it. Again, how it's framed. "Sylvie grew up in all the apocalypses and Loki has never walked half a mile." We the seen Loki's story what drives him . Ten years and four movies seeing what drives him. Sylvie's one flashback and an awkward conversation doesn't endure me to the character.
There's a difference between saying someone is not a villain and claiming someone is a hero. Wanda, both in Age of Ultron and WandaVision, was presented with a choice. Your wants and feelings vs the well-being of others and, both times, Wanda chooses others. Sylvie is given that choice and she chooses herself. Wanda has made mistakes, but when confronted with the harm she's done, she makes the effort to fix it. That is why she is not a villain, because she will sacrifice her own happiness to make things right.
Waldron straight up called Sylvie a hero on a crusade when what is shown on screen is someone who only wants revenge and disregards everyone else's life and smiles at causing harm. No one called Wanda a hero. That's not the point of her story and a when she causes harm she expresses guilt.
I defend Wanda as a grey character. Sylvie could have been great grey character too, but just to much favoritism for that to be pulled off successfully.
Lastly I won't lie the fact that Wanda is a long established character I'm familiar with compared to the Frankenstein mess that is Sylvie is another factor.
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'Would you fuck your clone', TVA edition:
Mobius: I don't want to fuck my clone, because it would be gay sex and I'm not gay.
X5: I'm not gay, but I would actually totally fuck my clone.
B15: I'm gay but I still don't want to fuck my clone, that's gross and weird.
Casey: it's basically the same as masturbating, right? So no big deal.
OB: It's not the same as masturbating; it'd be like having sex with your twin. Wrong and bad!
Victor: I would not have sex with my clone, because what if my clone is evil?
Ravonna: I don't want to fuck my clone, because my selfloathing is THAT strong.
Sylvie: To be honest, fucking my clone has always been my fantasy.
Loki: not only would I have sex with my clone, I'd probably make a bunch of clones and just get it on with all of them at once, that's how pro clone fucking I am.
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i’m sorry i’m going on another rant but this ship enrages me; i think they should be besties, not romantically in love. that’s how i originally read it, and i hope the show backtracks a little bit and makes that real, because they do NOT need to have romantic feelings for each other. like it seemed like they were just trying to figure out how to CARE about others, not like they were in love. i think they have deep platonic love for one another, but i see no reason that it needs to be/ should be romantic?? i think they’re both just trying to figure out how to express that for each other, and they’re really awkward about it, so it ends up being expressed a bit weirdly. i really really hope s2 does this narrative and they don’t end up as a couple. it just doesn’t feel right.
idc about the selfcest or whatever bc they’re completely different characters. the actors even have some chemistry, but i just do not like this ship as romantic, i see them as friends. i’m curious to see as well if sylvies feelings were genuine, or if she was trying to manipulate loki to get what she wants. i hope they can be friends without the writers/directors ruining it and making them actually fall in love.
taken from a quora response (i know i hate that site too but this reply really made sense):
“I glanced at the other answers and everyone seems pretty sure that they are madly in love. I have to say I disagree.
The Loki we know has truly experienced trauma throughout his life. He was basically abducted as a baby for lack of a better term, lied to, etc etc. He doesn't trust people. I would go as far as to say he doesn't even put any effort into liking them. As much as I do believe he loves Thor, it is a love-born out of initial obligation. I think that loving/caring about anyone outside of your immediate family is always different. And that the first time you do it, it has a learning curve. What a lot of people read as soft loving romantic feelings, I read as Loki slowly lowering walls.
I think that at the moment when Mobius was pruned, Loki truly was heartbroken, because he considered him an ally and a friend. Possibly his first. Imagine not having a single friend in a thousand years. After having that kick ass fight, working with Sylvie against the minutemen, he grabs her shoulders, I don't think he was going to dip her and kiss her. Ala a Peggy/Steve or Tony Pepper moment. Or declare her his one true love.
I think he was going to declare that he trusted her and that he wanted to fight alongside her. He was going to tell her everything that she missed, everything that he thought they should do next. He was fully prepared to do the same thing with Mobius, He just never got the chance. He's never known how to trust someone and now he did. And in his mind the first part of that is declaring it. Declaring that you aren't trying to betray that person despite it kind of being your calling card.
Could I see a romantic relationship in the distant future? Maybe? Everyone seems to look at the variant thing differently. To me none of the variants are the same. They look different, they act different, they were raised different, and they don't even appear to have the same genes. Literally twins are more similar than the variants. A lot of people are also saying that him caring for her is similar to him accepting himself because they share so many traits. But that is a kind of relationship that can be found in a person who isn't your trans-dimensional variant. Oftentimes our best friends, our platonic soulmates, are people that we see ourselves in the most.
There's a quote that I don't remember exactly. But it goes something like, “You will find that in your life there are people who will know your soul from the inside out and the great tragedy is that these are rarely the people you spend your life with." I thought of that quote several times when I was watching the last episode.
I personally really like Sylvie as a standalone character, and at this point I'm just hoping that she lives to move on in the next phase of movies. Because honestly, I like Tom Hiddleston, it would be cool for him to have a romantic relationship with anybody. But more than anything I'd love to see him in his mischievous glory with a best friend egging him on.”
#anti sylki#was disappointed by the show but hope tom hiddleston keeps playing loki and getting other roles for forseeable future#ship can be friendSHIP it doesn’t always have to be romantic#i’m tired of this show’s bullshit!#i love loki but he doesn’t need a gf#the nexus event literally PROVED they shouldn’t be together#the nexus event said they’re meant to be alone#but i interpret that as FRIENDS and not lovers#please just let season 2 be sane#PLEASE
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I know you said no variants of characters in play but would Sylvie be okay if we made her Loki's sister etc?
Hi! Yes, we decided Sylvie could get messy, even though she's basically adopted another identity, because it would reopen that door of having to have Thor, Hela, Odin, etc. variants. We did talk about letting Slyvie be a possibility if she were Loki's biological sister -- possibly twin? That'd be fine with us x
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Loki x Sylvie as a romantic couple
Loki & Sylvie as younger Chaotic Siblings™ to Thor
#loki#loki laufeyson#sylvie#sylvie laufeydottir#loki series#lokilaufeyson#sylvielaufeydottir#thor#loki x mobius#lokius#loki spoilers#chaotic siblings#marvel#mcu#loki show#avengers#tom hiddleston#hiddles#loki doesn't need romance but if there must be i'd rather see loki x mobius#loki & sylvie are basically twins#shipping them gives me lannister vibes#lol#ravennazane
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but fr tho I was so excited to cosplay sylvie and Loki with my brother bc we each look so much like them and it would be such a fun sibling halloween costume…
but now…
#so disappointed#it’s gross#they’re THE SAME PERSON#SAME DNA#BASICALLY TWINS THAT HAPPENED TO NOT GROW UP TOGETHER#loki#sylvie#lokius
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Petition to call Loki and Sylvie twins. Please, their chaotic sibling energy is unmatched. Fred and George who? These two singlehandedly caused their own demise by staying in a decaying planet just because they couldn’t stop fighting over the remote. Nuts.
#thor: oh god theres three of them now#*loki hela and sylvie t-posing while Thor cowers in fear* feel our might#Loki and Sylvie are basically Peter and Shuri except they try to kill each other every time they spot each other#but they’d still like……. send each other awful memes and bully Thor together#frequently make temporary truces#and all that#please#give me Chaotic Laufey Twins#loki#loki spoilers#sylvie#mcu
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#disney#marvel#Loki#Mobius#Sylvie#she's like#his clone???#or twin sister basically???#their morals are a fucking roulette wheel#two men kissing#we can't have that#Next Episode: Loki takes self love to a whole new level
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NO BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF THIS
Why is it that people saw Sylvie and Loki and went “oh my god the sexual tension” “they have so much chemistry” well wouldn’t you if you met another version of yourself??
also why is everyone so set on shipping these two.
I get that normally people see a woman and a man on screen (lets forget Sylvie and Loki in this context) and go “oh they’re gonna become a couple” well... i’m gonna police you and say that you shouldn’t, just like how cishets police lgbt+ ships.
Because when queer people point out the same thing like, suddenly it’s all “why can’t you let them be good friends”
#yes im salty#youre annoying#stop shipping sylvie and loki#theyre basically twins#loki (marvel)#loki show#mcu loki#loki#sylvie mcu
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Well I’m personally offended on a number of levels
#purely average 👌#the acting was kinda eh towards the end tbh#and I’m sorry#y’all they can’t go “we’re the same” (basically saying they’re the same person) and then have them be romantic partners#friends? yes. siblings? even better#in fact#full Mobius redemption arc then have him be the dad of the chaos twins#why was kid Loki not a bean?#gotta say I love classic and alligator Loki’s tho#they have it set up *perfect* now for Loki to be ultra powerful tho#because if he can enchant bc he and sylvie are the same#that logic should extend to all Loki’s and their connections#they hyped up vote Loki so much#just like D.B. Cooper#I feel like these tags have been so mild for the opening statement#but like#for a penultimate episode to be that average (and iffy on the acting)? it’s not great#*flashes back to wandavision*#yea the end of that show was also kinda eh#enjoyable but eh#Loki still being sidelined#it’s actually set up well for him to take the lead in ep 6#but I don’t trust them to actually let him do that#B-15 my beloved uwu#WHERES C-20 SHE COULD STILL BE ALIVE#please let Loki and sylvie be siblings tho#I like that dynamic for them so much better#I enjoyed it enough but like I’ve said#eh#thank you for coming to my TedTalk
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Extremely wild how Marvel was like “Loki is going to genderfluid and bisexual in his tv show” and then had his bisexuality mentioned in only one line, introduced a female version of himself for him to date, and implied that her being born a woman was so abnormal it caused a nexus event in her home reality. And by wild I mean bad.
#i mean ship loki and sylvie if you want#but man i just find the idea of dating someone who is basically you to be super weird#maybe because i'm an identical twin#also i genuinely cannot wrap my head around the idea of introducing lady loki as a LOVE INTEREST#loki#pie says stuff#marvel#mcu#pie watches loki#it's not like this is the worst lgbt rep ever to grace small screens but the fact that it could be better#and they didn't do it is super aggravating#but then what else am i supposed to expect from marvel really
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i hate it here
#seriously what the fuck#theyre basically twins#lokius stans we really lost this episode huh#im starting a support group#lokius#loki laufeyson#sylvie laufeydottir#mobius m mobius#loki series#loki spoilers
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Wanda: I created a whole new reality, created Vision and the mind stone. As well superpowered twins while holding a small town hostage.
Loki: I decided to mess with time, resulting me on meeting my variants.
Sylvie: Well I basically created a multiversal war again?
Dr. Strange: Amateurs.
Them: Excuse me?
Dr. Strange fully stepping aside, revealing Three Peter Parkers and sinister six: I said Amateurs!
Bonus:
Wong: All of you are amateurs! We just battled Thanos! Gives us a damn break!
#spiderman no way home#spiderman no way home trailer#dr strange#multiverse#spiderman#Peter Parker#avengers incorrect quotes#avengers x reader#Peter Parker x reader#incorrect quotes#dr strange x reader#dr strange fanfic#Peter Parker fanfic#loki#wanda maximoff#scarlet witch#sylvie#loki x reader#Wanda maximoff x reader#WandaVision#mcu#marvel
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It’s very telling where the MCU is in terms of quality when MoM is literally months away from coming out and yet people care more about the cameos rather than the actual plot (not to mention completely ignoring the light-washing/de-aging of America Chavez, an Afro-Latina lesbian woman and the whitewashing of Wanda’s Romani/Jewish heritage that has been going on since AoU)
Not to mention how everything that fans have praised about NWH is things from the old Spider-Man films. Hell, even with Thor 4, there’s more talk about Valkyrie’s sexuality and her “finding her queen” rather than anything about the main antagonist or plot.
And don’t even get me started on the disaster that was the Loki series and how supposed loyal fans can watch Loki be tortured and humiliated and call it “therapy” while they go and worship a female variant of him that’s about as interesting as watching paint dry.
The MCU only cares about putting out as much content as possible just to make a fast buck. It’s honestly sad considering how in Phases 1 and 2 they seemed to care about the characters and making each movie have a unique feel to it. Now everything feels the same, everyone acts the same and there’s no sense of individuality or creativity anymore.
I fully believe that Age of Ultron was the beginning of the end for the MCU, cause that’s honestly where things started to go really wrong in my eyes.
People focus more on Wanda in MoM then they do Strange.....and its his film. Like, I still ain't a huge fan of Doctor Strange's first film, cause whitewashing seems to LOVE this particular set of stand alone MCU films, but like.....no discussion of Strange or Wong or ANY Doctor Strange characters and elements, just Wanda and the cameos and its just....dam, kinda feel bad for Strange Stans right now.
MCU be like with ANY character of color at this rate.....mainly oddly the woman of color from comics: "Can we get a whiter version please?"
Like, shout out still to the Funko of Miss America for....actually making it worser. Dunno how, BUT THEY DID. And we all know why they suddenly mixing up the Young Avengers ages....given Young Avengers had members who are gay and in Loki's case, genderfluid, but well, MCU won't allow rep to full be seen so already betting we won't even see lesbian Miss America....
And with Wanda, its like......thanks, you failed in casting 101 as she is white as fuck in MCU, has the power to lose her accent and isn't Jewish cause no Magneto means no Jewish twins I guess.....no wonder she's appearing in MoM, she fits right in with whitewashed Ancient One and lightwashed!Miss America.
No Way Home's entire hype was literally the old villains coming back. Like, people screamed more at the pumpkin bomb being thrown in trailer followed by Doctor Octopus' appearing with, "Hello, Peter", then the rest of the trailer, and if that ain't obvious that No Way Home was hyped soley on the cameos, then the aftermath of people soley focusing on Andrew's Peter and Tobey's Peter is obvious enough.
Given MCU cut Valkyrie's Bi scene....I am VERRY skeptical off chances we'll see Valkyrie romance Jane, but....I'll wait until trailer I guess, but yeah....looking at any hype on Love And Thunder, its just kinda Jane's return and Valkyrie finding a queen....but in all honestly, given the Guardians are also taking over a plot in this film, I dunno what I'd prefer to be hyped at this point.
I hate Loki Show....so much. Like, keep in mind, up until that point, I'd been hopeful for it and TFATWS, cause even from trailer I knew I wouldn't like W/V, and first trailer for Loki? Yes, but watching the actual show? It was suffering. It wasn't about Loki like promised to fans, it was about him being basically secondary to Sylvie's journey and suddenly he's in love with her and while she can just, do whatever she wants without much happening, Loki get's literally tortured as a form of therapy.....and people ship Loki with the guy who did it.....thanks, I hate it.
And don't get me started on Sylvie. She's literally an OC, a mashup of the two Enchantresses and....Lady Loki, cause genderfluid Loki was toooooo hard I guess, and she's just impossible to watch cause MCU makes her into a girlboss.....while also sprinkling in some incest/selfcest, but better not go too far....or stans will call me biphobic again for hating their ship.
Yeah, nowadays mcu is kinda just interested in cramming whatever movie or show they can really. Phase One-Two at least seemed to think over the films and such, but nowadays its like, "WANT A HAWKEYE SHOW?! WANT A SHE HULK SHOW?! WANT A CHRISTMAS AND HALLOWEEN SPECIAL?!" like.....its just there until MCU is basically beyond dead....well, more beyond dead then it is already.
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