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comicteaparty · 4 years

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February 26th-March 3rd, 2020 Reader Favorites Archive

The archive for the Reader Favorites chat that occurred from February 26th, 2020 to March 3rd, 2020. The chat focused on the following question:

What generally makes the pacing of a comic too fast or too slow for you?

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

My favourite comic style are those large sized, panel and dialogue heavy European comic books, line Blacksad and Asterix. Since every 80 page book tells a complete story, every page is progressing the plot significantly, and the whole thing is pretty compressed and the rate splash page has an impact you don’t get in a more lose, decompressed comic. I love that kind of stuff and I look for similiar pacing in webcomics - heavier on the dialogue but without choking the art, low on wordless scenes (they tend to make me skim), taut and tight story-telling, every page asks and answers a question. I know it‘s a matter of taste and got told more than once that I am too dumb for comics because I don‘t have the patience to read through six pages of wordless, plotless mood-setting; but eh - that kind of stuff just doesn‘t work for me. I firmly believe comic‘s big enough a field that mood pieces and tightly plotted stuff can happily co-exist and find their own readership. I‘m just gonna be in the „plot, all the time!“ corner.

sagaholmgaard

The a comic starts focusing on minor characters that don't hold much importance for the plot I'll find it to be wayy too drawn out. While One-Punch Man is one of my favorite comics, some fights are pretty unimportant for the overarching plot, focusing only on random small-fry heroes fighting random small-fry monsters and it's just... a million action panels for be too read through while waiting for the main cast to return (this turned out to be pretty specific, oops!)

Ash🦀

Honestly, coming from a writing/literature background, I feel that most comics are too fast-paced for me;; I love the slow build up, it makes everything much more rewarding at the end, and the mood-setting that just lets you breathe and stare at the page, yes, a thousand times yes. I guess this is why I don’t like reading or writing actions scenes... so fast-paced and they feel more like “this is action for interesting action and the hero needs exp and not because it’s a necessary battle” ;; but this is more of a personal preference than anything, and... yeah, I definitely blame the books I used to read xD

Capitania do Azar

I'm a little confused with the filler concept introduced here, given that most webcomics are made by individuals (not teams)... What would they even be filling for? I think it's fair to talk about less interesting b-plots or when the scenes are focused on characters we don't like as much, but I would hardly call anything a single artist decided it was worth enough to spend hours drawing by their volition "filler"

As for the pacing question, it is sometimes hard to combine the two facets of webcomics: that they're published on a page-to-page basis but they are often read in bulk, when digging through archives. I don't know if it's possible to find the perfect balance between these two, which makes it possible to think that certain scenes are too slow (oh no, we've been at this wedding for three months now!) but when read in the archive are suddenly too fast... I think breathing room is necessary every now and then, even for faster-paced comics.

RebelVampire

I think you need to consider that just because an artist doesn't see something as filler, doesn't mean readers won't. I've known a lot of comics where the creator created a scene that they loved, but in the bigger scheme of things it served absolutely no purpose to the plot and felt super out of place

So while the filler wasn't intentional as a "I need filler", to the readers it comes off as filler

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I like long paced, slow- burn type stories where there is an obvious carefully crafted plot with each stitch placed intentionally for a bigger reveal and payoff. Much how i like any relationship shown in stories, i love it when an author almost makes readers work for that payoff. It makes the re-read value go way up, and to catch on to the subtle nuances of plot reveal on the second or third go at the story is very rewarding both as a writer and reader!

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

You can easily have slow burn relationships in a faster paced comic. I actually like that better, because that usually requires the characters to have actions and interests outside of the relationship of interest, which leads to more well rounded characters.

A good example is the novel Clockwork Boys and it‘s follow up - slowburn romance, and while the characters figured THAT one out, they solved a huge mystery.

renieplayerone

Im a big fan of stories that are able to turn the pacing up to 11 on a dime without it getting old or lowering the stakes at all. It takes such talent to be able to tell compelling stories with high flying action at the same time, so I appreciate anyone that can manage that balance

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

My personal approach to writing pacing is that each page has to do at least two of three: further the plot, introduce/deepen story-relevant world building, deepen the characterisation. I aim for all three at once; if there‘s only two, there better be a good reason to keep that scene around, if there‘s only one, it gets cut and/or merged with another one. Eg. I have a scene where the character cook (food‘s relevant because there‘s a famine) and a scene where they argue about their plans, those can easily be combined.

Some scenes are still slower or faster than others, but they all matter to the story.

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

Def agree with Renie on that point too!

Ash🦀

Chalcara makes a good point too, and it’s something I definitely try to keep in mind in my own pages. I try to answer a question and ask another with my pages and pull as much double duty as I can wrench out of it. Now, whether I succeed every time? Absolutely not. But this is a good reminder when I’m going back to edit issue 3- keep the push and pull of questions and answers in mind.

RebelVampire

Ok so at this point I do want to jump in and remind people that as per Rule #1, this chat should mostly be about your experiences as a reader vs. your experiences as a creator. So just want to make sure the convo doesn't delve too far into that realm.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

My answer to this question is very much based on specific situations in comics. Pacing is SUCH a complex thing, and it's not always easy to see the impact in the grand scheme of things. To make a story seem too slow to me, a few things have to happen: the pages/ panels don't further the plot, don't deepen the characters/world-building, or the tension remains consistent for too long. Coming from a theatre background, I sometimes like to refer to this idea as beats. I focus a lot on the importance of every line having purpose. If a character says something, and it doesn't add anything to the experience, then perhaps the dialogue shouldn't be there at all. Or if a panel without dialogue doesn't add anything to the reader experience, the same thing applies. There should be no wasted space. Honestly, I am kind of a sucker for slow build-up (as long as there is actually build-up at all). So I'm not against slow-burn stories. To me, slow-burn shouldn't feel like it's dragging along, or like "nothing is happening," which is a common trap stories fall into. But we as readers need to see those slow moments in order to understand the fast moments too. Which brings me onto pacing that is too fast... Honestly, this is a much bigger problem to me personally. There is this influx in fiction of wanting to have the quickest jump into the action at the beginning of the story, and it always makes me want to stop reading. If the writer doesn't want to have ANY exposition at all or introduce the characters in any meaningful way, how am I as a reader going to give a shit about the characters? That's pretty much an instant story-killer to me. I don't mind if characters are introduced as we go, but completely glossing over them in favor of the biggest explosions never keeps my attention. All in all, I read comics (and fiction in general) for the human experience (which doesn't mean that your characters must be human, lol, fantasy and sci-fi writers).

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa] Thank you for mentioning that comics are big enough to accommodate all kinds of tastes. What I find to be too fast might be just right or even too slow for another person, and honestly, it's all valid.

FeatheryJustice

I like a coherent story. It doesn't matter if it is slow paced because I get to absorb the information. I don't mind if it is fast paced as long as I can understand it. If the story itself doesn't make sense because you want a slow paced story with weird inserts in the middle, you have lost me. If your story is too fast to the point of skipping scenes and details you lost me.

spacerocketbunny

I love slow building stories with larger payoff. Making sure that characters are fleshed out and given the chance to breathe while still facilitating the plot is a tricky thing to pull off but I've definitely seen it happen in comics like Shaderunners, TINF and Tiger Tiger for example. Shaderunners does an incredible job of showing a multifaceted inner conflict with characters while never missing a beat with super fun and high stake heists. TINF is one of my favourite romance stories that carefully builds up and constructs the characters and their feelings for each other while still maintaining that significant information on every page. Tiger Tiger is a slower paced story but keeps me on the edge of my seat every update. Petra utilizes space beautifully and I never feel like there's a need for condensing on pages. I boost these comics a lot but I personally find that pacing is a huge factor in my enjoyment for a comic, and I love these ones so much bc they suit my preference quite well!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There was a Korean professional webcomic (on Naver, though I don't think it ever got officially brought over to Webtoons) that I read, that had this interesting situation: seemingly fast pacing, very high tension, yet slow. It was a thriller that pitted a serial killer against the surviving wife of his latest victim. Once she got an inkling who the killer was, the tension skyrocketed, and it was a big game of chase. Problem was the chase part. It LOOKED fast paced if you just looked at like, one chapter of it. But they kept repeating the same scenario, just flavored differently. It was a rinse-and-repeat of this: "the wife found a new evidence; now everyone will believe her!" "oh no, the killer is about to catch her!" "the new evidence is lost" "wife finds another new evidence" etc. (It's been a while and my memory may not be accurate, but the idea is there) Nothing really changed throughout the repeated cycles. So yeah, repetition can be a problem.

Capitania do Azar

Haha, @keii’ii (Heart of Keol) I understand your frustration, but I feel like that kind of story is just aimed at a different audience... It almost feels like watching an episodic Tv show where everything has to come back to the starting point by the end of each episode

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

That is certainly a type with its own audience. Though if that's what they were going for, they probably could've benefitted from a different way of starting the story so readers would've known what they were in for. And there were lots of things that really felt like could have gone somewhere, but never did.

Hmm, I guess that's another thing that could affect how pacing is perceived: loose threads?

RebelVampire

IDK I think there's a difference between something being episodic and something being annoyingly repetitious. For example, Detective Conan is arguably episodic. Each situation in the larger scheme of things is largely the same: Crime happens -> There are red herrings and twists -> Conan solves it. As a mystery comic, it's never gonna deviate from that formula. But if literally every crime had the basic same plot flow, like if the red herrings and twists were the same everytime, then it ceases to be episodic and just becomes bland and repetitive.(edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

OH and speaking of Korean webcomics, I wanna talk about a pacing-related concept that gets brought up a lot in their comment sections: yam vs sprite (they call it "cider" bu they really mean sprite/ 7-up). Baked yam is a common wintertime treat. It fills you up, it's delicious. But it's notorious for making you thirsty. It kind of clogs up & dries up your throat. Whereas sprite is a thirst quencher. So, the idea is you can't eat yams forever. You need sprite to balance it out. Yams are a metaphor for frustrating build-ups. There is a sense that you (and/or the protagonist) are being wronged. e.g. It's a sports comic, and the leader of the opposing team keeps trash talking, even cheats and gets away with it. Sprite is a metaphor for satisfaction. In the same sports comic example, the arrogant, cheating leader finally gets what they deserve. Most stories need its share of yams. But if the yam portion of the story goes on for too long, the comment section will be filled with "where's my sprite!!!" "I feel like I ate 1,000 yams and now REALLY need some sprite" etc.

spacerocketbunny

Ahh that's an interesting concept!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

There are certainly stories that are big piles of yams by design. But I think when done well, readers who like a lot of sprite can tell what it is, and walk away pretty early on. So those comics attract readers who are into piles of yams.

(Of course, there's always gonna be That One Person who walks into a yam party and loudly demands a 5-gallon bottle of sprite... )

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

In that case, I definitely avoid yams! No matter how much I love a character or cast, I tend to go crazy if we stay in one location too long, or in one slow storyline for too many pages, or if I find myself going "COME ON, DO IT, DO THE THING, WE KNOW YOU'RE GONNA." To me, something new should happen on every page, even if it's a tiny plot progression or a tidbit of character info. I very much appreciate when a story takes time to breathe - and I find it's those quiet, cute, or slightly-unnecessary moments that are most memorable when I think of a comic - but too much of that will make me fidgety. I really need alternating paces to be happy.

kayotics

I think for me, it’s easier for a comic to go too slow than too fast. I’ve definitely seen comics go too fast, but the slow pace is more frustrating for me. What makes a comic slow for me are a few things: too MUCH focus on atmosphere (like multiple hand shots that don’t have dialogue), repeated events, too much buildup for an event, and the last thing is technical ability (like speech bubbles that are too large or in vertical scroll comics the panels being way too far apart). I’m pretty ok with letting things breathe, and I actually love that, but I need something to keep my interest, and those things above don’t do it.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I don't think yams are about repetition, though it can certainly involve repetition. It could be a new level of frustration on every page, revealing something new about the characters. But those would still be yams.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I'm also of the mind that its way easier for comics to go too slow than too fast. However, I think that its also really easy for a comic to introduce too many things too fast, without giving me the time to get to know anyone (contradictory, I know, hear me out) I think a lot of comics will start in a boring setting, before the initial action. It takes a very long time to ramp up to the ACTUAL story, because they want to get me to a baseline of knowledge before we get to all the action. This is really slow though because essentially nothing is actually happening, plot wise, and I think that the creators know this and so they try to do it all as fast as possible, so by the time we get to the action there are 10 characters and a ton of lore I don't actually know.... So I think there are two kinds of pacing, the actual plot/events of a story, and the introduction of new ideas. For me, the plot/events need to be relatively fast, but the introduction of ideas needs to be slow. I can't start a story with 6 people, it will feel too fast no matter what, and I can't start a story with slow action or it will feel like it's dragging. I don't know if this makes sense or not

kayotics

I think I agree with that pretty wholeheartedly. I want a comic to get me into the action pretty quickly, but introduce new characters and concepts slowly. Give me, like... 3 characters tops to start with.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, too slow AND too fast is definitely a possibility!

kayotics

Fantasy and sci-fi are both genres that can fall into that trap easily, and I think the comics that bring me into the world building best is the ones that don’t explain things IMMEDIATELY, but explain things over time as I need to know them

Deo101 [Millennium]

^ yes I feel this too. I think there is also a certain respect for a readers ability to suspend their disbelief that is oftentimes not taken into account... I think that, for the most part just being told something exists is fine, and learning how it works is what needs to take time. But, a lot of stories may try to justify things existing, which feels like overexplaining

kayotics

It’s like explaining why trees exist. Sometimes they just... do. I don’t question why they’re there

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Agreed, I think stories set in the real world have the advantage of starting with a bang, without much need for explanation - there's always a need for some explanation upfront in a fantasy/sci-fi setting, even if it's done through visual shorthand. You don't need to overexplain, but you definitely have to explain... more. Or at least make it abundantly clear that A) this is a different world, B) this is the general event that's happening, and C) this is how you should feel about it, even without living in that world.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yes exactly I feel like I see it most commonly in scifi/fantasy, like you said, where someone wants to explain why their magic exists immediately. This will sound rude but at this point I don't care why it exists, maybe way later you can tell me but I don't care when I'm only just starting .. it feels like reading someone's worldbuilding essay idk

kayotics

Yeah... that’s definitely a thing that can affect pacing negatively. I don’t need a world building essay on how the magic works right away. As long as the logic is consistent in magic I’ll figure it out as a reader. Then you can explain details later and I’ll be into it.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah cause later on it feels like connecting dots, almost like revealing the answer to a mystery

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Yes yes! I love that sense that as a reader, you're being trusted to learn - not so much that you're being fed information, but that you're given enough to put the pieces together. Even done slowly, it's very satisfying.

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I like my storys with some unexplained mysteries. I mean, how many people know exactly how the internet works, and yet we use it daily? Dumping down a dissertation on how x works more often than not kills pacing for me.

kayotics

I think it can be done well to keep the pacing going, but it needs to be combined with something. Sometimes you need to provide that info dump so the story keeps working

I can’t pinpoint any exact scenes but I seem to remember Gunnerkrigg Court doing that pretty well. There’s a lot of unusual concepts in that story that need to be explained, but it usually doesn’t feel like a slog

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah for sure. I do think it can also be used either in tandem with or as an instigator to moving things forward, if done right. Its not illegal to reveal information about the world

I think people tend to do this kind of thing better with Characters than the world. Because with Characters, we want to get to know them and this comes more naturally, but with worldbuilding... It often feels like worldbuilding should be a baseline knowledge rather than also a storytelling element I guess

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

One thing that really annoys me with pacing is when a single story beat that should be relatively simple takes way too long in real time. Like in one comic I read, the villains tell the heroes to urgently meet them at some location. And, like, the heroes are talking back and forth, deciding who they should send and such. But, like... it's been six months, and they still haven't left the house yet. I guess the urgency feeling is probably there if you're binging the comic? But, it really doesn't encourage me to follow along with the comic if it's such a slow read. I'm not saying that these sorts of authors need to update faster, but if your update rate is to the point where it takes months to finish an urgent conversation, maybe some things should be cut out? Or they should at least be walking out the door while they're talking? I guess it's just sort of a general "something should happen each page" thing though. Like if the conversation is just going in circles, there's really no need for it, and it can be annoying to follow along when it's seemingly so urgent.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I know it's not the same thing, but that reminded me of all the gaming comic strips out there that poke fun at "it's final dungeon time, the stakes are higher than ever, and the player spends the next 80 hours completing the minigames"

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

I have a rule that if any piece of dialogue isn't either directly advancing the plot, giving the reader new information about the characters speaking, or is funny, it should be cut

Definitely agree with what people have said, that big infodumps right off the bat are not enjoyable. I honestly don't ever want the author to sit me down and explain something to me. It's much more interesting to see parts of the worldbuilding in action, or to see things that arent explained and have to theorize about what it is or how it works before the mechanics behind it are shown

Capitania do Azar

I very much second that notion, @sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD) , that's my rule of thumb when I'm writing

Deo101 [Millennium]

I have a similar rule with my pages, but with dialogue I like to have more fluff so we feel like we're spending a bit more time with them

Capitania do Azar

if the info is not something I need the reader to know (and character development is) then what's the point of forcing myself to draw more stuff

but @Deo101 [Millennium] , fluff IS character ;D

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah! But it's not always new information is all

You gotta reestablish stuff, let some things marinate, and repeat things for them to really settle in I think, so it can't ALWAYS be new stuff, even if the page as a whole is introducing something new. I mean usually you can do it alongside other stuff but yeah

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think sometimes it's the same for the characters. e.g. The same characters can have multiple conversations about the same topic, but their understanding/ feelings toward the topic can change as things marinate.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah for sure

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Meaningful conversations where you get to know the character’s personality would fall in the 2nd category

Sometimes its hard to judge whether dialogue will be interesting to someone who’s unfamiliar with the characters

Shadowmark Productions

Someone once told me that dialogue should reveal character and action reveals plot. If done correctly, both work in tandem to advance the story without exposition. I’ve found that to be very useful.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Ooh. True!

mirandalorian

That's a good way to put it. And it seems like that idea is pretty important in comics.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think it's 100% fine if dialogue isn't interesting to people unfamiliar with the characters -- as long as it's compelling to people who have been reading from the beginning?

I live for the kind of scenes where like... character A just smiles... it's an ordinary smile to people who don't know A, but it means the world to people who know the context and the character

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Action can reveal character too

chalcara [Nyx+Nyssa]

I‘d say it‘s even more important, I for starters love characters that say one thing and do another; it‘s a good way to show conflict!

(Inner conflict, I mean)

RebelVampire

For me whether I think the pacing is too fast or too slow are actually two different things. In regards to finding the pacing too slow, I generally base this on a character's progress for their goals. While I like to see characters face setbacks and don't expect everything to be solved immediately, I expect some progress to be had. So if I wind up reading a comic and it's basically taking more than 100 pages for any progress to be made in the protagonist's goal and growth, that's just way too slow for my personal tastes. It kind of just ruins my investment in their goal since it doesn't feel like they're actually working on it, and that kind of defeats the point of a goal. In a similar but different vein, pacing is too fast for me if the comic never stops to breathe to exposit or showcase character emotions. Obviously, expositing a whole bunch is bad, and you don't want to take 20 pages to show a character crying. However, these moments where you take a step back and say "Hey look this character is struggling and here is a hint of their backstory" are super important for creating a bond between the reader and the characters. Without them, it just feels like you're sprinting from Plot Point A to Plot Point B. In relation to this, another element that would make it too fast is if characters are getting over things way too fast because plot is to be had. When something emotional happens, such as a character dies, I should still be able to feel those affects much later even if its not at the forefront. Of course, these are clearly just to my personal tastes, which pacing generally is a subjective thing in most cases.

Eightfish (Puppeteer)

For sure that thing about needing space after emotional events

not a webcomic but some of my favorite parts of One Piece are the crew goofing off after ever major arc

I feel like webcomics can fail at this sometimes, because things that feel tediously slow when writing week -by-week can feel fast when read back all at once

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