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fate-motif · 10 months

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here's the character traits i think predisposes characters in the jigsaw franchise to get brainwashed by jigsaw and become a jigsaw killer themselves:

they have to believe that they did something wrong, and that they atoned for it when jigsaw tested them

they have to be already somewhat comfortable making life or death decisions for other people

we all know pee-paw's self-help seminar from hell isn't just an alleged self-help seminar, but doubles as retributive justice in case the person fails (in his eyes). so whoever is offered to join up with jigsaw has to be comfortable with both sides of the ideological operation in play. it's not enough that they were severely traumatized and have a hole in their lives that they could fill by being part of this cult, though those things really predisposes them for the brainwashing. multiple characters were targeted to join the jigsaw movement and did not feel the vibe, so i think i have it isolated to these two traits.

further thoughts under the cut

how we see this in the apprentices

this puts all three main character mainline franchise jigsaw apprentices in a very clear light, really. amanda thinks john helped her overcome her addiction and redeemed her for the things she did as an addict. lawrence acknowledges how he neglected his family and took them for granted so hard that he cut off his foot for them even though there was no guarantee they would be alive when he got out. hoffman is perhaps the one that feels he owes john the least (since he at least partially came in on the scheme purely through blackmail) but considering his intense passion for brutally punishing the guilty i think it's safe to say john testing him jolted him out of the apathetic, drunken stupor he had been living in since his sister was killed, and that he thinks that's a good thing.

(your mileage may vary as to whether logan nelson blamed himself for john's cancer going undetected, but as a coroner he seems to take his job extremely seriously. if john sparing his life caused him to take action in appreciating his life in any way, i think it's fair to say that it got him to give his everything when at work.)

and as for the life or death decision making for others, it's crystal clear at least to me why the people that joined up did. two are doctors and one is a cop. these are professions where making life or death decisions for others is required, even if you're doing everything you can to save someone's life. amanda isn't either a cop or a doctor but having been an ex-con i think it's safe to say the high risk environment may have predisposed her to feel more comfortable taking decisions that may lead to someone's death.

and it's not really a coincidence that it's cops and doctors, either. both policing and healthcare are embedded in the themes of the saw franchise. john kramer thinks jigsaw is a doctor that doubles as a cop; healing a sickness if the patient is worthy, killing them if they aren't. that's why i think a lot of traps that people like to claim 'don't work' because the players aren't being tested for a flaw or misdeed still suit the jigsaw ethos perfectly. because pee-paw may act high and mighty but what matters most to him is the retributive justice aspect of the traps. and this is the same for all his apprentices as well.

except for brad and ryan, really, but they're more than anything victims of saw 3d's rushed writing. they're only there to help lawrence stop hoffman, since a disabled oncologist might struggle to take down the armed and dangerous cop turned serial killer. even then i can sort of squint and see those two as thanking jigsaw for intervening on letting this one woman ruin their friendship and make them commit crimes when she didn't value them. the atoning aspect, weak as it is, may be complimented by the fact that jigsaw just netted himself a couple of honest-to-god psychopaths because they didn't look even a little remorseful to have to kill their girlfriend when they reached their truce. oh, well.

but what i like about my conclusions is that they really explain why the victims who were set up to be brainwashed failed

not every jigsaw game victim would make a good apprentice

yes, up front: john kramer has lost his mind when he thinks anyone would ever want to join his sick little crusade. most people do not want to kill and can't find killing in most capacities to be vile. also most people's reactions after being tortured would be to immediately try and attack their torturer. and yet the madman actually netted three people to help him out. it's such an insanely lucky number, really, proven by the fact that hoffman tries to recruit two cops and fails.

two cops. one of them had engaged in police brutality, let a colleague cover for him, and respected and defended colleagues that engaged in it. the other one may have been a little too classy to punch suspects in the face, but the way he treats jill tuck speaks to the opposite of any respect for people's dignity. both of them are fine murdering jigsaw game victims who were only attacking under the extreme circumstanced they were in! and yet they didn't even hesitate when hoffman tried to sell them on the life of being jigsaw, the ultimate policeman!

because neither of them thought they had anything to atone for.

while rigg has an entire library of things to atone for, what hoffman wants him to regret and feel bad for is letting his desire to save people affect the people around him. maybe if hoffman had any kind of emotional intelligence he could have pitched his traps to make him consider his actions on others, but instead all his arguments came down to 'look at these weak, pathetic people. they're sick, deep down, so it doesn't matter if they die when we torture them'. which rigg was never going to believe. he saw his desire to save people as innately good and unchangeable, which is correct, of course. it's just that the actions he takes are absolutely hopeless to actually save anyone in hoffman's eyes, because that desire makes him careless but in mine because policing saves no one. so of course he could never have become a jigsaw killer, because his traps did not make him think he had something to atone for.

as for strahm, hoffman didn't even bother brainwashing him, and that's why obviously he was never going to get in that coffin. the water cube trap was a straightforward execution. strahm had already seen a jigsaw trap mutilate perez for no reason other than to get them off his trail. by the time he reaches the coffin there was nothing in the world that could have convinced strahm to join hoffman.

it really speaks to how far gone and twisted hoffman is that in either of these cases, especially strahm's, hoffman thought there would be a chance either of them would even think about joining forces with him.

could any other jigsaw victims have made good apprentices?

i have a couple of ideas.

before we get to the candidates i'm going to address the apprentice adam angle, because it's a common au and everyone loves adam and wants him to be alive. also because it's a fun angle for chainshipping. this is your opening to send me chainshipping fanworks where larry tries to brainwash adam into joining him! but as it stands in canon i don't think adam would have found it in him to join the serial killers because he's not the kind of guy with a developed killer instinct. yes, he's depressed and suicidal in the original script. yes, the bathroom game makes him say out loud he wants to stop taking his family for granted. but he killed zepp in the very urgent scenario of trying to stop zepp from shooting lawrence, and i don't think he has it in him to deliberately put people in torture games where it's very likely they'll die. especially since, before jigsaw, adam had never met anyone he would actually find it in him to kill on purpose. though neither had lawrence, so i will give the adam apprentice girlies a point there.

the writers of the first movie say that zepp was having a blast when he kidnapped gordon’s family so he’s clearly he’s got the killer instinct needed for the job. the problem is that even john would be able to tell by a glance that zepp wouldn’t be able to stop himself from indiscriminately harming people as opposed to using violence for their ideological leanings. there’s a reason he was poisoned instead of merely asked to join. so while a rare find in that he might have already been primed to be a serial killer already, we all know john loves his delusion of doing violence for a higher purpose and zepp would ruin that illusion very quickly.

the only candidates i think would have been perfect otherwise would be brit and mallick from the fatal five. i've mentioned this before but they feel like they've atoned for their crimes through their game and were delusionally euphoric by the end of it. and so long as the victims chosen were on the scummier end of things, i could see both of them prompted into villainy.

you know who else got prompted into villainy? brett abbott. which is kind of insane to say considering he's a kid and i feel for him even though he did literally murder a man. it's just very hard for me to hate a kid suffering under institutional injustices even though he let that suffering out through murder. but all i'm saying is that under the right trap brett and the fatal five survivors were the more ideal candidates for apprenticeship... if only john was there.

yeah. hoffman doesn't have it in him to coax anyone into anything. he's a homemade nail bomb, not a leader. he would probably even dismiss brit and mallick right off the bat over their now missing hands, and you can't tell me he would have the patience to groom a teenager like brett. amanda and lawrence are also not exactly winning in the charm department. so really once the cult's charismatic leader kicked the bucket their way of life was doomed to eat itself from the inside out.

which is exactly what happened.

... don't ask me to think very hard about anyone in jigsaw because i've forgotten 95% of that movie

#saw franchise #saw x #jigsaw killer #john kramer #amanda young #mark hoffman #lawrence gordon #logan nelson #jill tuck #adam faulkner stanheight #adam faulkner #adam stanheight #brit stevenson #mallick scott #daniel rigg #peter strahm #brett abbott #tara abbott

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soullessjack · 9 months

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talk to me about saw. just bullet points ranting

thank you (you will regret this).

One of my favorite yet also most frustrating aspects of the franchise is that John is a complete hypocrite. His entire philosophy is grounded in the concept of the value of life, and the games are intended to teach various victims said value because John has deemed them ungrateful and wasteful for various reasons. Adam wastes his life by spying into others’, Eric destroys the nerve house peoples’ lives by framing them, etc., but there are so many victims who simply do not deserve to be there, and I’m absolutely counting the ones picked by John’s apprentices because while he didn’t make the choice himself, he still approved of them, ergo deeming them ungrateful.

Paul, the barbed wire room victim from 1 strikes me as the biggest example because he was literally just a depressed man, and the fact that John accuses him of cutting for attention because his life is superficially perfect just makes it worse. I don’t want to sound like I’m whining about mental health awareness in a torture porn franchise, but genuinely it’s so frustrating that John instantly refutes Paul’s reasons for cutting simply because he’s a healthy middle class white guy. Hank the smoker from 3D is literally just a smoker, another addict victim among the others, which is even more ironic given that his career in civil engineering was spent on making housing for people in need due to poverty and addiction, as was Jill’s clinic. John spent his life helping the very type of people he’d come to target.

Brad, Ryan and Dina from the opening power saw trap are nothing more than a cheater and the two men she manipulated. Of course cheating is a terrible thing to do, but putting them alongside a serial rapist and crooked cop is beyond incomparable. Forcing Brad and Ryan to choose between killing Dina or the other while they were completely unaware of her manipulation is unfair, and sentencing Dina to be cut in half for cheating is even more unfair. I can’t see any way how cheating could fit into John’s philosophy about the value for life.

Bobby Dagen and his team 100% deserved to be a victim for what they did. Exploiting tragedy and trauma for personal gain, so much so that he even attends support groups for actual victims and lies to their faces, is something even someone of the most sound mind would want to punish him for. But his wife, Joyce, literally believed he was a survivor, and she didn’t find out Bobby was lying until her trap had set in motion. Daniel Matthews had no involvement in his father’s job or the fact that Eric framed several people, and while John did spare Daniel in the end, he still placed an innocent child in danger for the sake of his game—which can also be said for Gordon’s family in Saw 1.

For a man who so fervently believes in the value of life, John has no problem wasting it to teach his victims The Lesson, even if it’s an innocent one (which, I personally think could have some connection to Gideon’s death, but idk). And I’m not sure if this is a purposeful element to his character or not, but either way I actually think it adds to the franchise overall. There’s such a poignant sense of hopelessness and unfairness to it, to seeing all this suffering and brutal death and to know that, not only was it undeserved, but that it all happened because of one man’s sheer, unrelenting entitlement.

John calls Adam out for being a voyeur, and yet he makes himself a voyeur into the lives of all his victims in order to judge and choose them. He likes to book himself front row seats to his sick little games.

John Kramer is a hypocrite.

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