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paradife-loft · 2 years

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Things we learn about JGY in MDZS, in chronological order

I mentioned at one point a while back, that when the official English volumes of MDZS came out and I started doing a reread, I wanted to make a chronological catalogue of information we learn about Jin Guangyao.

I wanted to do this both for reference purposes, but also for bringing a quality of deliberation to the experience, trying to look more cleanly at how MXTX’s presentation of him unfolds throughout the novel if you aren’t coming into it already knowing a majority of his story. In particular, I think it’s very relevant to look at that presentation when coming, as I do, from a background of having watched CQL first, because the difference in story ordering (present day with integrated flashbacks, versus mostly linear and chronological) makes a big difference in what and how we learn things about him in, in what order, and therefore how his entire character comes across. (I mean, it does that for probably everybody to greater or lesser degrees, but it’s me, so my main concern is Jin Guangyao.)

So this here is the first part of that reference catalogue! It covers material found in volume 1 of the official published English translation by Seven Seas, which is also what the page numbers refer to.

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He is the only one of Jin Guangshan’s many illegitimate children to be “outstanding enough” to be recognized and taken back into the family. He is the current head of the Lanling Jin clan in the present day. (page 72)

He is close personal friends with Zewu-jun, Lan Xichen, and as a result of that friendship, the Lan and Jin clans are politically close. (page 82)

His title is Lianfang-zun. He hosts Lan Xichen at Jinlintai regularly. He was the (younger) half-brother of Jin Ling’s father, and the elder half-brother of Mo Xuanyu. He sits on the “highest seat of the cultivation world” and is very politically and personally powerful - entirely unlike Mo Xuanyu. He and Lan Xichen are not simply good friends, but also sworn brothers. (page 124)

He’s the one who gave Fairy to Jin Ling as a gift. (page 222)

He and Lan Xichen had also been sworn brothers with the previous leader of the Nie clan, Nie Mingjue. The two of them now often help his younger brother, Nie Huaisang, with the many difficulties he has running his clan. (pages 225-226)

He is considered “smooth and resourceful, sharp-witted and intelligent.” His oath of brotherhood with LXC and NMJ took place during the Sunshot Campaign, when they each did praiseworthy deeds that later got them the moniker of the Venerated Triad*. (page 270) (*yes, I’m cleaning up/swapping that translation for a different one, because the official one on-page is ridiculous.)

Nie Mingjue “viciously berated” him and ordered him to leave when he stepped in to try and smooth over a diplomatic solution between him and Jin Guangshan over the matter of Xue Yang killing the Chang Clan. He ended up too terrified to say anything more, and hid behind Lan Xichen. (page 308)

Jin Guangyao inherited control of the Lanling Jin clan after his father’s death (a few years after the siege of the Burial Mounds), as well as his position of Cultivation Chief. He ushered in a new regime compared to that of his father, offering many restorative measures to their reputation, including “getting rid” of Xue Yang and any talk of remaking the Yin Tiger Seal. (page 314)

He’s the most popular character for kids to play in “Sunshot Campaign” games! (adorable <3) His background - which we don’t know yet beyond simply his being an illegitimate child - is considered “too embarrassing to speak of”, but that only helps endear him to the common people in the context of his admirable rise to power. During the Sunshot Campaign, he worked as an incredibly effective spy within the Qishan Wen clan; afterwards, he “curried favor by every means possible,” using intelligence and quick wits in all sorts of ways eventually reach his current position as Cultivation Chief. On the other hand, it seems widely-enough known as a part of his reputation that he was regularly scared of Nie Mingjue, that even the kids playing Sunshot games were well aware of it. (page 344-345)

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And that’s it! A few additional observations of these, taken as a whole:

The strong focus here, presumably in his reputation as narrator!Wei Wuxian is relating it to us, on extraordinary merit as the reason for everything about his ascension.

A strong five out of nine of these passages mentioning him either include, emphasise, or are directly about, his relationship with Lan Xichen. (And one of those remaining four is literally just “he gave Jin Ling a dog”.) - And not only is it a consistent through-line: it’s the literal second thing we learn about him.

Up through the point where Wangxian have retrieved their dismembered corpse friend’s torso from the Chang clan cemetery, we still haven’t heard any mention of Meng Shi’s occupation. The closest we get is the last section, where his background is mentioned as being very embarrassing - but it still doesn’t specify. Even in the very first mention of him, where we learn he’s an illegitimate child, and that Jin Guangshan was an infamous womanizer, nobody here and now is commenting about “son of a prostitute”. Reputation may certainly be fickle - but it’s also very clearly not worth nothing.

(For comparison, in his first couple appearances in CQL, we get, roughly in order: retainer of the Nie clan who Huaisang relies on; son of a prostitute (gossiped about); mutual heart-eyes with Lan Xichen; extremely competent and politically shrewd. Possibly also murders people and lies about it (??), but also jumps in front of a sword for Nie Mingjue.)

#MDZS #Jin Guangyao #meta #op #no good things for the poor sad cultivators #I have stuck bits of washi tape to each of these pages like post-it notes ok #I am Not Casual about this XD #(I mean there's other things on this read I am also being Not Casual About - mostly my perennial `HOW DOES NIE CULTIVATION EVEN WORK` thing)#but then also... another Crackpot Theory TM that I'm still trying to wrangle up a post about at some point so... stay tuned maybe?#(by saying this out loud I have cursed myself to never actually finish writing the post bc I'm a dumbass I'm sure)#anyway In Conclusion: Lianfang <3 zun <3

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xiyao-feels · 3 years

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Part Three: Claims about JGY

Intro - Pt 1 - Pt 2 - Pt 3 - Pt 4

JGY

1) JGY has the authority to teach NHS the SoC

He does teach him, and there's no suggestion from anyone involved that he didn't.

In MDZS, the SoC is explicitly one of the Lan's exclusive teachings, and NMJ objects to LXC teaching it to JGY on those grounds; LXC's response to this includes the fact that it can't be leaking it since JGY is their sworn brother, a consideration which would not extend to NHS. I'm not saying that LXC would necessarily deny NHS the chance to learn it (if he were in fact capable of playing it; it's noted as very difficult), but there is no way that JGY has the authority to teach it to NHS without LXC's permission. Nor does NHS seem to be making any efforts to hide what he's playing (in front of both NMJ and some of the Nie men JGY was just playing in front of), so it doesn't seem as though JGY was playing on that to get NHS to keep in a secret. I grant you the plan is stupid enough as it is, but if he'd obtained permission from LXC to teach NHS that would elevate it to new heights of idiocy.

In CQL, the guqin conversation is missing a great deal of what we see in MDZS, and that includes the exchange about it being a Lan exclusive teaching. Nevertheless, we're not given any reason to suppose it's not—and all later discussion of it pretty much follows on MDZS, where it is.

2) JGY involves NHS in his killing of NMJ

He teaches him the corrupted SoC. Now, as in part one, I think MDZS canon suggests this would result in NHS actually helping NMJ, but that's clearly not what the movie is going for.

In MDZS, JGY consistently defends NHS from and to NMJ, as you've seen in some of the quotes in the previous sections. Moreover, after NHS burns his hands when NMJ burns NHS' things, he's the one who orders medicine prepared and comforts him, advises him to go back to his room and rest, and tries to keep him from provoking NMJ; and then, after NHS has run off and locked himself in his room, refusing to open it to anyone to allow them to deliver the medicine, and while NMJ is still furious about NHS' defiance, accepts the medicine and plans to take it to NHS' rooms after he's finished with NMJ (ch 49-50). He does not involve NHS in his plan to kill NMJ.

In CQL, again, we see rather fewer of JGY and NHS' interactions during this time period—which doesn't mean that they don't happen, just that we don't see it. Again, when CQL doesn't say something, I tend to assume it matches MDZS unless I have a specific reason to believe otherwise—CQL kind of relies on this, in fact, otherwise you have questions like "wait what the heck was JGY trying to dig up in the temple". Regardless of whether you agree with that argument, JGY does hold NHS back and prevent him from running towards a qi-deviating NMJ. Although I've seen it interpreted as cruel, he likely prevents NHS from getting himself killed or injured (as happens in MDZS, where NMJ wounds NHS (ch 50)). And this is of course not strictly part of the text, but I'll observe that ZZJ has said that he thinks JGY would regret allowing NHS to witness NMJ's qi-deviation. There is, regardless, no evidence in CQL that JGY used NHS in his plan to kill NMJ.

3) JGY can straightforwardly prevent NMJ's violence via the SoC

We see him do this when NMJ is about to punch NHS; he's obviously hurrying a little, but the SoC works clearly and quickly.

In both MDZS and CQL, he shows no sign of an ability to do this. Instead he just has to deal with NMJ attacking him. When he can prevent NMJ's violence towards him, it's literally just that he manages to talk him down; JGY is, in fact, incredibly vulnerable to NMJ's violence.

We see more of NMJ targeting JGY in MDZS (see next point), but in neither MDZS nor CQL does JGY show any sign of being able to stop NMJ's violence by playing a few quick measures.

Granted, this is mostly a replay about the SoC being able to stop NMJ's violence quickly even when used by someone with weak cultivation. But it's a very important point.

4) Someone other than JGY is the main target of NMJ's violence.

This isn't an explicit claim, but while NMJ is violent on more than one occasion, at no point is JGY his target, nor (from what I can tell) is it suggested he usually is. Rather, NHS and the Nie men are made to stand out as NMJ's victims.

In MDZS, JGY is absolutely the main target of NMJ's violence;* although he does burn NHS' things, leading to NHS' hands being burnt when he tries to save them, and later injures various people (including NHS!) when he qi-deviates, he does this latter /because he is hallucinating they are JGY/. He calls JGY out at the stairs and /publically/—in front of various Jin disciples!—and not only humiliates him but also kicks him down the stairs then draws his sabre on him with intent to kill him (all this after trying to hit him very first thing after they go outside). Earlier, of course, we see him try to kill MY after MY has just killed WRH and saved his life, and his final qi-deviation is immediately preceded by him kicking open a door to slaughter JGY on the spot for the crime of being upset to LXC about how NMJ treats him…ostensibly combined with him being polite and friendly to NMJ's face, but the last time JGY was anything but, NMJ tried to kill him, and indeed LXC is advising JGY against "provok[ing]" NMJ "again," presumably by talking back to him as he did at the stairs (ch 50).

In ch 118—before the stairs incident, and I think it must have been before the Chang clan are killed too—XY asks if JGY's bruise is from NMJ. Although in fact it is not (and observe JGY's response: “If he were the one who did it, do you think I could still be standing here and talking to you?”), the possibility of NMJ's violence towards JGY is clearly present. In ch 32, when WWX sees some kids playing, although we're told that LFZ is the most popular character and although the text is replete with indications that at this point in time he is both powerful and well-respected, there is /still/ the general knowledge that NMJ is going to threaten JGY and JGY is going to flee:

“Nie MingJue” raised swung his fist, “So what if you’re the Chief Cultivator. You’re still my youngest brother. You’ll have to run away whenever you see me anyways.”

“Jin GuangYao” did indeed cooperate and maintain his character. Flinching his shoulders, he quickly ran away.

See also WWX's comment in the first Empathy chapter, when he's surprised at watching NMJ and MY get along: 'Wei WuXian had heard too much of those jokes of how “LianFang-Zun fled whenever he heard that ChiFeng-Zun arrived”.'

We're even told that the brotherhood oath they swore was unusually violent!

NMJ's determination to kill JGY lasts even into his own death—that's /why/ JGY dismembers him and sets such strong seals on him, so that NMJ's fierce corpse won't kill him. NMJ's violence towards JGY is a central part of both of their narratives, and shows up all throughout the text.

*Well, NMJ is also very pro-Wen-killing, but on an individual level.

In CQL this is a little more complicated. NMJ seems perhaps generally less violent? Certainly we are shown less of his violence, and in e.g. the confrontation in Sun Palace he is not constantly attempting to get to JGY while LXC blocks his blows and explains things. In episode 36, although we still see the children playing, the exchange is a little modified; we're still told JGY is scared of NMJ, but the NMJ kid doesn't raise a fist or anything like that, and the JGY child doesn't run away. Nevertheless, NMJ is clearly hostile to JGY, and his violence at the stairs is the same: attempting to hit him the moment they arrive outside, kicking him down the stairs, and then drawing his sabre on him to try and kill him. The difference is that in CQL, JGY survives because NMJ qi-deviates, whereas in MDZS he would likely have died had LXC not intervened. The emphasis on NMJ's violence towards JGY is much less present in CQL; nevertheless, JGY is still the primary target of what violence we do see.

5) JGY is easily replaceable, indeed at all replaceable, as a subordinate

FJ does not explicitly say this, but NZH seems to be very well-integrated and to have been there a while, and there's no suggestion he is in any way less than a perfect subordinate, or that JGY was better. As though to emphasize this, we see him dive in front of NMJ to take a blow (as with MY in CQL)—and, of course, he has the good grace to die when NMJ tries to kill him. One of the rather underspecified Nie cultivators also flings himself in front of NMJ, taking a blow to save his life (although, to be entirely fair, willingness to take a blow for NMJ is probably the way in which MY /is/ most easily replaceable).

In MDZS, MY's competence as NMJ's subordinate, and indeed the extraordinary level of his competence, are fundamental to his and NMJ's relationship. Consider these quotes from ch. 49:

After he left, Nie MingJue switched to another deputy. Wei WuXian, however, felt that the new one was always a few beats slower. Meng Yao was an unusually clever talent. He could understand what wasn’t said, and perform to the best with the simplest orders. He was efficient and never slacked. Anyone used to him wouldn’t be able to refrain from comparing him with others.

and

Nie MingJue was never close to people. He rarely opened up to anyone. Though he finally managed to obtain a competent, trustworthy subordinate, whose character and capabilities he approved, he found that the subordinate’s true colors were nothing like what he had thought they were. It was only natural that his reaction was so extreme.

Moreover, it's WWX's conclusion in ch 49 that part of the reason NMJ agrees to swear brotherhood with JGY is JGY's extraordinary talent:

From [WWX's] observations, aside from how Lan XiChen brought it up, having always hoped that the two would reconcile, the most important factor was probably the gratitude of saving his life and writing the letters. To be precise, in his past battles, he had more-or-less depended on the information that Meng Yao sent over through Lan XiChen. He still thought that Jin GuangYao was a talented person whom one would rarely come upon, and intended on leading him back onto the right path. However, Jin GuangYao wasn’t his subordinate anymore. Only after they became sworn brothers would he have the status and the position to urge Jin GuangYao, like how he disciplined his younger brother, Nie HuaiSang.

This is also part of LXC's attempt to reassure JGY that NMJ has not entirely turned against him, in ch 50:

Lan XiChen, “He has always cherished your talent, hoping that you would choose the right path.

JGY's extraordinary competence is very much central to their relationship, and the /fact/ that he has to be so extraordinarily competent to achieve any recognition is central to the themes of the text.

In CQL, again, this is less explicit. However, in episode 10 NHS praises him and WWX and JC are impressed by his talent; the captain, the only other high-up Nie man we get an individual sense of, seems rather less impressive. Moreover, at the stairs, when confronting JGY about XY's imprisonment, NMJ says what did I tell you back in Qinghe (about wanting XY dead), i.e. when JGY was his servant, suggesting he still views JGY in the framework of that relationship and at least possibly suggesting that he still misses JGY in that position.

In the interests of justice I will also bring up the important claims about the characters I noticed that /do/ have significant textual support: first, that NMJ is very good at fighting; second, that NHS and NMJ are each other's most important people. (It technically also gets that NHS hates practicing the sabre, but given the way it contextualizes this I'm not giving them any points for that one.) FJ also claims that lying to someone to keep them from knowing something that would hurt them is an expression of love—although in MDZS this goes rather the other way around, with NMJ keeping things from NHS, considered in isolation it does fit in with similar expressions of love in CQL/MDZS.

Now, I want to be clear, I'm not actually being as thorough as I possibly could. To do that, I would have to watch it multiple times and think things over for at /least/ a month, and even aside from the poor anon who's waiting on the answer to the question "what do they erase about NHS and JGY," I have absolutely no desire to spend that kind of time with the film.

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#fj negativity #more than one tag could contain #anger burned in his heart #we can't change places #long meta

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suwuminshan · 3 years

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#ShowYourProcess

From planning to posting, share your process for making creative content! To continue supporting content makers, this tag game is meant to show the entire process of making creative content: this can be for any creation. RULES — When your work is tagged, show the process of its creation from planning to posting, then tag 5 people with a specific link to one of their creative works you’d like to see the process of. Use the tag #showyourprocess so we can find yours!

I was tagged by@melodious-tear for this gifset thank youu!!~

Planning: what would make people care about Su She when his existence barely gets acknowledged at all apart from memetic hate? apparently the answer, as shown here and here, is FaceApp. I decided on the SuYao Jinlintai meeting because his face journey here is the best thing, from timid to No Thoughts Head Empty Only Lianfang-Zun in like 0.3 seconds. you can see his universe rearrange itself in real time. I need others to appreciate that as well ;w;

Programs/Apps/Tools: FaceApp, Clip Studio Paint Pro, this site to combine GIFs

Preparing: so, FaceApp. it does not have a function to do edits in bulk, or for videos, at least not where I could find it. okay, no problem, I said like a fool, I'll just put every frame through it individually. 105 frames in total, let's go. FaceApp also does not save edits in order, and there isn't a good way to see which images I did already, so I had to sort the correct sequence by hand after and sift out accidental duplicates, which. hm. hnnnnn-

Editing: FaceApp free version saves images in low quality with a watermark. okay, no problem, I said like a goddamn fool, I only need the face and hair so after removing noise and sharpening everything I'll just mask it and put the non-FaceApp frames below. That worked out fine for the first GIF; the head movements are minimal enough for me to get away with one mask for the whole animation folder. Laziness wins!

For the second GIF I had to mask each frame individually, roughly, with my mouse because my surface tablet couldn't handle the file for some reason.

rip my wrist.

worth it? who's to say :/

I wanted to keep this one close to the original in colour, just enhance it a bit. the layers I used are: - (correction layer) normal, Brightness/Contrast: 5/10, 100% opacity - overlay, solid colour #974B33, 15% opacity - (correction layer) normal Brightness/Contrast: 0/20, 100% opacity

Posting: the next day, to wait if I catch any errors after resting my eyes. I actually did make a biiig mistake, but since it would've been v tedious to fix.. *chucks this out there anyways*

Conclusion: I'm still fairly happy with how it turned out, and especially with the reactions and nice tags!!! :3 but also, wow this was. an embarrassing amount of effort and I'm sure there would've been an easier way to do it. if I ever get it in my head to do something like this again, please, someone, beat me with a stick.

ah, idk who to tag :x

#showyourprocess #this was fun owo #suri.txt #tag game

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