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ladycatofwinterfell · 2 years

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The importance of honour

“I took Catelyn Tully’s maidenhead” said the treasurer.

Then he said no more, for the Hand of the King’s dagger was in his throat.

A shortened down version of what would have happened if Ned had just made the right decision and fucking killed Littlefinger

Ned’s steps were slow as he made his way towards the small council chamber. His head was pounding and his body would not quite follow his commands. Every now and then he found himself standing still instead of walking forward. It would be the same as it always was, exhausting.

For a few seconds he stood outside with a hand wrapped around the door handle. There was still time to turn around and walk back to his tower. He was in desperate need of good sleep, he had not known it since he left Winterfell. Since Bran fell. There were so many dreams that kept him from truly resting.

With a sigh he pushed the door handle down and opened the door, straightening up as he entered. Only to be still once more a moment later.

“I took Catelyn Tully’s maidenhead” were the words that had made him stop. “You laugh, though it is true. She was fond of me, asked me to let her give me her gift.”

Before him was the master of coin, sitting leaned back in his seat. He was so small in his chair and yet his words were large and confident. Yet nothing had ever angered Ned so, nothing had filled his mind with such rage.

There were other men in the room, though he could not say who they were. He had his eyes on Littlefinger, and what little of his focus was left was directed at the dagger in his hand. He did not know when he had unsheathed it, but the weight in his hand was a true pleasure.

The men standing with Littlefinger, when he came closer he knew that they were Ser Boros Blount and Ser Meryn Trant. Their faces turned a truly remarkable shade of white as he approached them.

Littlefinger saw the looks on their faces shift from amusement to fear and turned in his seat. His eyes widened, though that infuriating smile did not disappear.

“Lord Stark–“

“I should have known better than not killing you when I had the chance” Ned said.

Then the smile did fade. Ned watched Littlefinger go pale, watched as he began choking on his own blood. It had been long since he last heard the sound of a man choking on his own blood, he had only killed through beheadings since the war. Those had been just killings, honourable killings, carried out because people had broken laws. Littlefinger had had no trial, Littlefinger had not ceremoniously been brought to a certain place and beheaded by Ice. Still it felt more just than any execution Ned had ever carried out, then any enemy he had killed in battle.

When Ned pulled the dagger out of his throat blood gushed out over the both of them, hot and red. Littlefinger desperately tried to stop it, pushing his hands against the wound as if that would keep his blood from spilling.

“And you should have known better than to speak of Catelyn in such a manner.”

Littlefinger’s head hit the table with a bang and the gurgling went silent. A dark red puddle quickly formed around him and it grew until it was dripping down on the floor. A shame, the rug in that chamber had been so beautiful.

“He’s dead” Ser Boros said slowly.

He stared at the corpse between them, as if he could not believe what had happened.

“Very much so” Ned responded.

He reached out with his dagger once more, wiped the blood off it on Littlefinger’s back. His clothes were already bloody, it was no disaster.

Petyr Baelish was dead and Eddard Stark would not mourn him. Perhaps he had not deserved to be killed in such a manner, though Ned could not regret it. Not after what the man had said about Catelyn. If he had truly respected her he would not have told lies. Hopefully his death would not bring Catelyn too much sorrow.

“Where is the king?” Ned asked. “His master of coin has been killed, we must sort out that issue.”

“His Grace is in his apartments, my lord” Ser Meryn let him know.

The two knights glanced at each other, as if uncertain about what to do. He would not have resisted if they decided to seize him for if, nor would he have argued against it if they had been in rage over what had taken place before them.

“Excellent, let the rest of the council know that this meeting will have to take place tomorrow instead.”

“With all due respect, Lord Stark, it is not our job to run errands for you” Ser Boros said.

“Then find someone else to do it.”

They were not of the small council, they should not have been there in the first place since the king was not in attendance.

Ned sheathed his dagger and left the room. The blood on his clothes earned him a few glances from people as he moved through the keep, though still everyone greeted him politely. He greeted them in return, not thinking much about it. He had to go to Robert and say what he had done so that they might find someone else to take Baelish’s place on the council. That and to take any punishment he would receive for it. He was positive it should have been something along the likes of the cells. He did not care, he could take that, it had been worth it.

Ser Arys Oakheart and Ser Mandon Moore were standing guard outside the door to Robert’s apartments when Ned reached it.

“His Grace has asked not to be disturbed” Ser Arys announced before Ned had time to say a single word. “He has a visitor.”

“It is rather urgent, and I assure you of that the king would not be enraged if I were to enter” Ned told him.

“Is it not something the small council can discuss?”

“It is a matter only for His Highness.”

Ser Arys and Ser Mandon looked at each other, nodded, and then stepped aside to let Ned enter. He was surprised they had not mentioned his bloodied hands and clothes, though he would not claim to be disappointed about its

He found Robert with his visitor placed on his lap. A girl, Ned did not even want to know how young she was. He had little wish to look at her at all as she was bare down to her waist. Though it was hard to look at Robert without also looking at her..

“Ned!” Robert called out when he saw him. “Have you come to join us?”

“No, Your Grace, I am here to inform you of that I killed Lord Baelish due to lies he told about Lady Catelyn and that you therefore must appoint a new master of coin. You might also want to appoint a new hand if you don’t see it fit to have me keep my seat on the council.”

It was almost intriguing how fast Robert’s mood could change. How fast he had pushed the girl out of his lap and stood up.

“Damnit, Ned, I know you held no love for that man but could you not have kept yourself from killing him?” he shouted.

“He told lies about my wife, insulted her honour” Ned calmly told him again. “That was not due to simple dislike. Though it is well within your right to punish me for it.”

“Gods be good.”

Robert closed his eyes and raised a hand to his forehead.

“You will not leave your position” he sighed. “And you will not be punished, that man has been a thorn in my side for years. Excellent treasurer, despicable man. You will, however, find me a new treasurer.”

“Of course, Your Grace.”

It was another thing that required his attention though at least he would not have to see that sly face every time he entered the small council chamber. People would undoubtedly talk about the happening, the men and women of the royal court did not have much else to do, though that could not have mattered less to him.

“You should also know that you are on thin ice, Eddard Stark” Robert added, nailing Ned down with his gaze. “Now leave me, I do not want to see you.”

#ned stark #anti littlefinger #ned x cat #okay well kinda ned x cat i guess #robert baratheon #my fic #this is not my best work but sometimes you just have to write out your fantasies of littlefinger’s death #free therapy etc etc

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agentrouka-blog · 2 years

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Hi. I scroll through this blog a lot in the past and I remember you being pro Sansa, I think. She's always been a comfort character of mine and since I got into this fandom as a lurker at the same age as she was at the start(basically I got into it cause my cousin liked the show and I wanted to bond with him). I just wanna say that this blog has saved my sanity after I found out one of my comfort characters, who reminded me so much of a close friend of mine/distant relative, who is also close to me in age, is shipped with adults, of all things. Wonder when the pedoshippers will realize that Sansa does not have to love their fave to be a 'great' character(read: uWu sElF iNsErT dIsgUiSed aS cAnOn chaArActEr cHAnGes bRoKen mAn). Sorry if this makes no sense, I just feel a lot about this character. I want to give Sansa a hug. She deserves better than whatever those shippers give her.

She does.

I mean, ship and let ship, let people enjoy stuff.

But in terms of canon analysis? Yeah, absolutely.

#sansa stark #anti sansan #anti tyrion lannister #anti littlefinger #anti sandor clegane

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nerdybuckeye · 1 year

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Baelish would think Lolita is a lovestory

#asoiaf #got #anti petyr baelish #anti littlefinger #lolita

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hylialeia · 1 year

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[taking you by the shoulders] game of thrones was never good, seasons 1-4 were only well-liked because they were consistently adapting book material that sometimes felt compelling when they decided not to strip it of its context or accidentally kept the significance of its original impact and themes. the show always had a problem with shock value for the sake of itself and an ultimately shallow motive that directly opposed the books themselves, which rotted the adaption's core; any enjoyable material was a fluke resulting from the efforts of good actors and book-canon, as evidenced by the sharp decrease in quality (or "quality") when the showrunners had to choose between adapting the most thematically rich moments in the series or making a mad dash to their imagined Shocking Twist finish line

#don't lie to yourselves anymore be free #s1 had the littlefinger sex worker monologue and introduced tyrion as some lecherous pleasure focused drunk #s2 butchered the dany in qarth storyline so badly I've blocked most of it from my memory #s3 look how they massacred my girlies cat and robb and brienne #s4 what did you do to oberyn... to the tyrells... to the jaime cersei story arc #(<- credit where it's due at least the tyrion trial monologue fucked severely)#(but what's it matter if they sacrificed tyrion's whole arc and robbed us of dinklage's performance as anything but audience surrogate??)#s5-s8 is self explanatory.#anti got #asoiaf

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sunnysideaeggs · 1 year

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We spent 8 seasons watching how everybody south and north of the wall scorned Jon for being a bastard and how even the doubt of the future king being illegitimate (while having the very plausible excuse of looking like his mother) burst a giant war where almost everybody dies and now we are supposed to believe Rhaenyra putting bastards (that don’t even look like her) on the throne has no political repercussions whatsoever?

#oh how we’ve changed #i think the change from the main audience of got and hotd have made an awful difference of how they portray the characters #for example in got we had littlefinger and cersei #and they were awful but people loved them bc they were smart and knew how to play the game #and characters like ned #people love him but they know he made stupid choices that killed him #and the main audience of got was older millennials and gen x or baby boomers #but in hotd most audience is younger millennials and older gen z #and it shows #so much faux feminism and fear of making a character unlikable if they aren’t perfect #they wanna make Rhaenyra a girlboss that never does wrong but she makes dumb choices too #and the narrative doesn’t acknowledge that #why is everything a misunderstanding or a mistake #let them be evil #even daemon got watered down #we have no conflict this is a hero vs villain story done wrong #good girlboss rhaenyra vs evil r*pist aegon #anti rhaenyra targaryen #Rhaenyra Targaryen critical #hotd #anti hotd

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catofoldstones · 8 months

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I want Petyr Baelish decapitated by Oathkeeper but by Sansa ofc

#makes sense for him to die by Ned’s sword somehow #sansa stark #anti littlefinger #asoiaf

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lives4lovesworld · 1 year

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It's always assume that at the very least Sansa will i) out smart Petyr Bealish, ii) regain autonomy and her identity, that iii) in some way or form Petyr's tale will become true such as Sansa securing herself a marriage with Harrold Hardyng and her having such a strong influence on him that he will a) wage war for her 'birthright' or b) aid the North by providing goods, food and manpower. With the Vale enthusiastically doing his every bidding, simply because she is his wife and she asked him nicely/is so courteous and eloquent/he is so inlove with her/its profitable for the Vale.

In this meta I will list (and explain) the problems I have with these speculations that seem to be rooted in wishfullfilment rather than the probability of certain plots being likely to become canon, or if they are even feasible or realistic.

i) How Sansa is suppose to outsmart and overthrow Petyr Bealish, AND remain in power afterwards?

Petyr Bealish is the man that managed to crawl his way up to the ruling elite of Westeros, despite his incredibly (relatively speaking) low birth, lack of power, wealth, family or image (he does NOT fit the feudalistic standards of a man his positions). And yet, he remained in power through several civil wars that brought houses, dynasties and monarchs to fall. Petyr is the man with circa two decades of experiences and had no qualms of sacrificing countless souls, including his self-proclaimed "true love" and lives by this philosophy:

Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. - Sansa V, ASoS

Yet the one to supposedly bring him down is the thirteen year old girl that needed to witness her own father's decapitation for her rosa colored glasses to fall off. And this after she was present to her idol and her "love" ordering her direwolf's murder to mend their wounded pride! This is the same girl that is so quick to build her entire hopes and dreams upon strangers (that shows her a little bit of kindness and fit her conforming prejudices like Margaery and her circle did) and got carried away in her own dreamworld that she could not even follow conversations and plots, even in ASoS:

Sansa wrinkled her brow. "Our true purpose, my lady?" [...] "To see you safely wed, child," the old woman said, as Butterbumps bellowed out the old, old song, "to my grandson." [...] Wed to Ser Loras, oh . . . Sansa's breath caught in her throat. She remembered Ser Loras in his sparkling sapphire armor, tossing her a rose. Ser Loras in white silk, so pure, innocent, beautiful. The dimples at the corner of his mouth when he smiled. The sweetness of his laugh, the warmth of his hand. She could only imagine what it would be like to pull up his tunic and caress the smooth skin underneath, to stand on her toes and kiss him, to run her fingers through those thick brown curls and drown in his deep brown eyes. A flush crept up her neck. [...] "Would you like that, Sansa?" asked Margaery. "I've never had a sister, only brothers. Oh, please say yes, please say that you will consent to marry my brother."

The words came tumbling out of her. "Yes. I will. I would like that more than anything. To wed Ser Loras, to love him . . ."

"Loras?" Lady Olenna sounded annoyed. "Don't be foolish, child. Kingsguard never wed. Didn't they teach you anything in Winterfell? We were speaking of my grandson Willas. He is a bit old for you, to be sure, but a dear boy for all that. Not the least bit oafish, and heir to Highgarden besides."

Sansa felt dizzy; one instant her head was full of dreams of Loras, and the next they had all been snatched away. Willas? Willas? "I," she said stupidly. - Sansa I, ASoS

Some (very in favor for her) could argue there is some desperate small wiggle room here and there for insisting that Sansa has evolved (for the better). (While nonsensically insisting she at the same time is almost stupidly naive and "idealistic", but also these traits are not obstacles to her potentially rise to an autonomous player. No they make her all the better for it.) But even if she had a stellar development; How exactly is she with no true authority suppose to best a man like Petyr Bealish?

After ASoS, Sansa has become a disgraced orphaned female beggar, married to the enemy "Imp Kingslayer", and has become utterly dependent on Petyr Bealish as his natural born daughter, depriving all her limited autonomy and authority from him as Lord Consort.

Petyr Bealish has also managed to gain Sansa's compliance and ensure her loyalty and secrecy to him by filling her head with his wonderful tale of him as her benefactor that is going to gift her all her dreams, while reminding her of her status as wanted by the crown and making her a complice in the murder of her aunt and a participant in his scheme to poison SweetRobin Arryn.

Not to mention that Sansa has yet to express her wish to detach herself from Petyr (in her POV) in the first place, but as of TWoW's releases, Sansa seems pretty content with all the privilege (x, x, x) she has as his daughter. Nor does she not seem to have a problem in being his pawn:

The Merling King's returned to Gulltown, and old Oswell had some tales to tell."

She knew better than to ask what sort of tales. If Petyr had wanted her to know, he would have told her. - Alayne II, AFfC

And as said, even if she would want to due to her involvement in Petyr's schemes as well as her being wanted for kingslaying, she would risked death herself.

But let's assume for the sake of the argument that she does; what sansa would truly need are people to genuinely protect, stand by, believe and defend her in the Vale, and as of now there is no such one, especially after the death of her aunt.

And no, Lord Yohn Royce's question if he had already meet Alyane is NOT the same as actually recognizing Alayne as an older Sansa AND publicly voucing for her on behalf of her identity, despite her stans insisting otherwise. Yohn Royce (like all vale lords) did NOT fought for Robb Stark (Winterfell's heir with an northern army at this back and strong ties to Riverrun), which really does not bode well for the possibility of him fighting for her. And this knows even Sansa:

He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. - Alayne I, AFfC

At best (which would entail the Vale remains oblivious to her involvement in those schemes and have the lords of the Vale not sell her to the crown for the bounty) she would remain a "guest" to her cousin, and likely be married off to the next best suitor that befits her unfortunate status (as Lady Lannister)

ii) A believable explanation (any really) has yet to cross me as to HOW Sansa would (or even could) reclaim her identity without taking for granted that everything will work out in favor for her. 1) which would entail the majority of highborn lords in the Vale unquestionably believing Sansa that she, who was introduced to them as a bastard (which are seen by society as greedy and treacherous) of the Petyr Bealish (known for his schemes) is indeed Sansa Lannister, simply because she makes a teary proclaimation with her pretty Tully blue eyes. And 2) that the lack of a direwolf serving as proof will not be an obstacle 3) nor the lack of a relative voucing for her.

Infact her closest, most influential relative's death Lady Lysa's, which occurred while Sansa was supposedly already under her care as her lord husband's natural daughter will also not in any way, shape or form make them wary of her tale. Nor appear like an identity theft and poor attempt to grasp power for their own gain in the eyes of others.

Secondly, Sansa's very identity (the disowned female orphan to an overthrown House, married to the "Imp Kingslayer") does not allow her to be an autonomous player so many want her to be. Robb Stark and House Lannister saw to that. Nor would an identity reveal, even believed by everbody, give her more opportunities than the (relatively speaking) limited ones she already has as the current bastard daughter of Petyr.

iii) Petyr's tale (and why I believe it is just that and not a plan that will actually become canon);

When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. - Alayne II, AFfC

So Petyr Bealish has managed to match a marriage pact by buying all of Waynwood's debts, providing Lady Anya with an enormous dowery and because at this point Harrold Hardyng remains nothing but the son of the perished sister to Jon Arryn and a landed knight sworn to the Waynwoods. His relatively low status at the moment would allow such a "low" match with the bastard daughter of the disliked temporarily Lord Consort of the Vale. However, if SweetRobin truly dies and Harrold indeed becomes the Lord, all the reasons why "Alayne Stone" is unfit for Robert Arryn will apply for Harrold as well:

You are the Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale, and you must wed a highborn lady and father a son to sit in the High Hall of House Arryn after you are gone." Robert wiped his nose. "But I want —" She put a finger to his lips. "I know what you want, but it cannot be. I am no fit wife for you. I am bastard born." [...] Some call my father upjumped and ambitious. If you were to take me to wife, they would say that he made you do it, that it was no will of yours. The Lords Declarant might take arms against him once again, and he and I should both be put to death." [...] "You must have a proper wife, a trueborn maid of noble birth." - Alayne I, TWoW

Now Petyr Bealish's further step is to reveal Sansa's true identity on their supposed wedding, which would not solve the problem of the bride being unfit for a groom of such a caliber and it holds in and of itself many obstacles that prevent the very plan to unfold.

To start with; (as already said) should Harrold indeed become Lord Paramount he will be showed with marriage proposals by the ambitious feudal Houses of the Vale (as they were already courting widowed Lysa in AGoT) and its rather unlikely that they would grant that position to a "foreign" beggar (which Sansa would be either way, whenever she goes by her real name or by "Alayne Stone".) instead of trying to make one of their own daughters the next High Lady.

Secondly, the marriage pact entails "Alayne Stone", not Sansa Lannister. Petyr's plan to reveal Sansa's identity while she is walking down the aisle risks invalidating that very pact. And while the fandom refuse to acknowledge it, "Alayne" being revealed as Sansa would neither lessen the insult of the lie and betrayal by "Sansa Lannister" being more "attractive" as a political match. And no such a scheme would not simply brushed under the rug.

Yes, Sansa would be high born, but Harrold would get nothing politically speaking from their marriage given the position Sansa is in (as Lady Lannister). Neither will her previous marriage, especially to the House that the Vale believes has murdered their previous Paramount Lord make her more attractive. Whenever Tyrion might be believed dead or Sansa assures her virginity ten times, it more than likely that she would be seen as "sullied leavings" in the eyes of others.

Lysa Arryn likely only allowed a marriage between Sansa and her precious son, because she was her sister's daughter, and despite her flaws, their complicated relationship and her unstable mental state saw Sansa as family. And while Lysa mention Sansa's claim, (which will likely cease to exist as soon as Robb's Will becomes public knowledge) she also saw Sansa for what she was and reminded her of her position as well.

Petyr HIMSELF has pointed out how Sansa would bring nothing to any marriage (excluding her body):

"Joffrey is betrothed to Sansa Stark," Cersei objected. "Marriage contracts can be broken. What advantage is there in wedding the king to the daughter of a dead traitor?" Littlefinger spoke up. "You might point out to His Grace that the Tyrells are much wealthier than the Starks, and that Margaery is said to be lovely . . . and beddable besides." [...]

Littlefinger agreed. "The Stark girl brings Joffrey nothing but her body, sweet as that may be. Margaery Tyrell brings fifty thousand swords and all the strength of Highgarden." - Tyrion VIII, ACoK

And while Petyr has also mentioned Sansa's claim, it should mean little to nothing to Harrold considering that i) House Bolton has been installed as Warden of the North, ii) House Stark lays broken and it would have to re-establish itself as sovereign to the North. A bloody, tedious and costly task with little to no profit as the North is even under its best circumstances poor and hard to cultivate. As soon as iii) "Arya" is revealed as Jeyne Poole, it will even further slim the credibility of her identity reveal. iv) Her claim will be even further catapulted down in the line of succession with Rickon, Arya, Bran's impending reappearances. Not to mention that v) Jon will more than likely involve himself in the matter of succession as well and vi) Robb's Will will disinherited Sansa and make Jon his heir. (x)

And while most has yet to unfold on page, it would extremely OOC for Petyr Bealish (and the story!) to believe everything will work out in Sansa's favor and that Harrold will marry her out of his own volition, (which is indeed a condition in the marriage pact).

Much and more is made of his and Sansa's little playful banter at the tournament, yet what we know of Harrold's character, it's likely that he will pose the biggest threat to Petyr's little "plan".

Harrold is known for his high opinion of himself, his classism and that he has no qualms of fathering bastards on girls, he is infatuated for a brief time and then abandoning them as soon as he stops viewing them as sexually attractive. Petyr has also already stated that Harrold thinks Alayne is beneath him:

This betrothal was never [Harrold's] idea, and Bronze Yohn has no doubt warned him against my wiles. You are my daughter. He does not trust you, and he believes that you're beneath him." - Alayne I, TWoW

And it's not entirely unreasonable to think that Harrold would be insulted at the idea of marrying a girl whose virginity is questionable and who doesn't bring him any ties or wealth as Sansa Lannister. And the fact that she plans to use him and his position for her political gain will likely not make Harrold more sympathetic towards her.

The part hardest to dismantled because no matter from what angle you look upon it, it shouldn't be feasible to become canon;

. . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. - Alayne II, AFfC

So Petyr supposedly plans to use Sansa's marriage to Harrold to mobilize the army of the Vale to reclaim Winterfell in the name of House Stark.

As already said (a dozen times) Sansa (as the orphan married beggar of an overthrown House) should NOT be able to secure the Lord of the Vale as her Lord husband in the first place. Realistically speaking, Sansa should only be able to match such a marriage if she and her family would still hold the same position as of the start of the series, but as we all know, this is NOT the case anymore. House Stark is neither the secure, ancient sovereign of the stable peaceful north nor is Sansa the indisputable maiden daughter of said family. Sansa should NOT be an attractive potential bride in the eyes of the Vale without House Stark retaking the North and it becoming politically attractive enough again for other kingdoms to be of interest and them voucing for her identity.

–> Thus Petyr's entire plan falls apart, before it can even truly begin.

But let's push this all aside for the sake of the argument: Even the concept of the entire Vale doing Sansa's bidding simply because she would be their Lord's newlyweded wife is absurd as well. Her aunt had been their Lady for seventeen years and they still did NOT view her as one of them nor as a authority figure;

Young Lord Hunter said, "Lysa Tully was never truly of the Vale, nor had she the right to dispose us." - Alayne I, AFfC

Also; Why would a girl's birth claim to an entire different region that is uttelry in shambles due to the political uproar after her family's fall from grace matter to Harrold or any Valeman?

If Sansa were to marry Harrold under normal circumstances (if House Stark was still in power and Sansa would have never been married off) what would be expected of her is to rule by his side (if Harrold is progressive enough to allow it) give him children and her place would be in the Eyrie or at the Gates of the Moon. As it would befit (and deem more than sufficient for) any high born daughter that has married into another Great House of Westeros.

Never once in the history of ASoIaF was there ever a High Lord that wage war against another kingdom because his wife wanted her father's seat as well. Nor was there a High Lady that held her father's lands AND was simountanastly the High Lady to an entire different kingdom as well. This would not even be feasible.

The question as to HOW a vale army, (a southern army!) would even reach the instabil (due to the already happening civil wars, the mass exodus of the Free Folk, the famine) war torn North given the lack of a fleet or the renewed impregnability of the Neck in the middle of winter also remains a big question mark.

However, let's brush this essential question aside as well; The assumption of the vale army conquering the North is absurd as well. GRRM has already empathized how a southern army is not fit for the North's harsh climate in ADwD with Stannis Baratheon's suicidal march, contrasting it with the marching mountain clans. Nor is Harrold (a "green" boy commander) likely to win against the seasoned ruthless Roose Bolton, which the lords of the Vale would surely know too. Another reason why the vale army would NOT simply do its new young untested Lord's bidding, if he were to call for war. Harrold will likely need a few years to prove and establish himself before the valemen will willingly follow him into battle, especially into a economically nonsensical war whose favors are against them from the beginning.

And while yes, someone could argue the vale army would be better rested and organized (than Stannis's measly beaten ragtag of an army) and therefore have better chances, even in the best case scenario the vale army would likely lose most of their men in the battles against House Bolton and its banners for a gigantic region that brings them nothing; no wealth, no man power, no minerals, no goods, no trade.

All these points listed above, together with GRRM's comment on how Petyr would never give up Sansa, Petyr's wish to marry her himself (when she was Sansa Stark) and the fact that it would be incredibly stupid of him to ever allow Sansa to detach herself from him (as it would put him at risk due to her knowing so many of his crimes) further marks Petyr's tale in Alayne II, AFfC as a tale to ensure Sansa's compliance and nothing more IMO. Not to mention, which author would tell his audience the plot of a character word-for-word in dialog beforehand?

Now, some believe that instead of waging war Sansa will influence Harrold to aid the North by providing goods, food and manpower, which (fair enough) is only an ounce more feasible than the alternative. Yet, it is still something NOT supported by the books;

For this to happen, Sansa would first need to grasp the gravity of the famine that is plaguing Westeros, and care enough about the (common) people's wellfare.

Which she does not given the fact that she cannot fathom why the commoners love Margaery and as of her last chapter has her organizing a feast with 64 dishes in the middle of winter, amongst these dishes even a 6 feet tall lemon cake that required every lemon in the Vale with her being very proud of herself. Nor does she have any reaction whatsoever to Petyr's plan to cutting the food supply and hoarding food as war tactic, which would hit the common folk the hardest. Not to mention that Sansa's POV never showed her really thinking about... really anything happening in the North (especially its people), neither prior nor post House Stark's fall.

So beside all that, it would also requires the Vale to suddenly become altruistic and humanitarian, given that all possible supplies send by them would essentially all be gifts since foreseeable payment is unlikely given the north's state.

Some even have the idea of Sansa somehow achieving it all in another way on her own (because they hate the idea of Sansa marrying Harrold) (which is even less likely than Petyr turning into her Santa Claus) and exaggerated the potential influence her skills have even more. But has @brideoffires already perfectly explained in her post Sansa has NOT evolved in terms of learning new skills (unlike Arya) and more importantly none of the political plot in the Vale is moved forward through her own knowledge or scheming.

It's all propelled forward and catalyzed by her relationship with Petyr Baelish. [...] As in King’s Landing, Sansa is /being/ moved by the machinations of other people and being induced or compelled to act in certain ways because of the politics around her. - excerpt from @brideoffires linked post

Her particular skillset can only be of use and influential if the priori are Sansa already having strong ties to political thriving male relatives or/and a husband. Otherwise her skillset are not of use as GRRM has already shown throughout the whole series; Sansa can be as charming, courteous and polite as she wants to be, it does not give her agency, protection, support or power.

There is so much unrealistic, unreasonable, OOC nonsense, no one would even dare to suggest if it would be any other character, already taken for granted because it's Sansa. Sansa is always the expection. As always, everything will work out in Sansa's favor.

So why is it that even the ones critical of Sansa believe it all becomes canon anyway, one way or another? The most popular arguments I have seen are the proclaimnation that Petyr Bealish is Sansa's personal antagonist and therefore their "arc" simply MUST conclude with her triumphant. There is no other way.

The other is that SOMEONE has to get the Vale involved in the affairs of the realm, SOMEONE has to mobilize the resourceful Vale for the War of the Dawn and to aid the North's etc... And Sansa is the POV character located in the Vale so logic says GRRM MUST plan for her to be this SOMEONE to accomplish these tasks.

An entirely different reason is the fandom's climate; Basically Arya, Bran and Jon fans seem to concede Sansa these gigantic convoluted unrealistic plots (= a triumphant vale arc) in hopes that her fanbase will do the bare minimum of NOT butchering the story's integrity and the ones of their favs by not stealing their individual importance, relationships, ties, skills and arcs in the North to give Sansa a place in the northern plots (which her fans insist on having).

In conclusion; these reasonings are infuriating and incredibly offensive to the story's integrity and Sansa as a character. And more importantly, this fandom should stop offering to concede and tolerate it all simply because her fanbase is just that incredibly wild.

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esther-dot · 10 months

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What do you think about song Bear and the Maiden Fair? While the bear is described as brown and black with hairs while the maid described as honey in her hair and pure. Many think that song is about Hound and Sansa because he saved her when other knights couldn't but the bear in song didn't seems to saver as it tastes the honey of maid when she was shrieking and kicking. Seems like forced touching just like Hound forcing on Sansa. Tyrion, Penny and Jorah had played the characters in Meereen.

I also received this ask about the song:

(These are so old, neither of you may be around anymore, but I finally typed up some thoughts on this. Sorry for how belated this is! 😬)

I would assume that the reason so many relationships have a connection to the song is that Martin has an interest in developing relationships between extremes. At one point or another, he’s formed a relationship between youth/age, brother/enemy, beauty/ugliness, life/death, love/hate and I totally forgot the big one and had to circle back to add: ice and fire! Lmao). “Beauty and the Beast” is based on the interest in the juxtaposition of extremes, The Bear and the Maiden Fair offers something similar, so it makes sense to me that he repeatedly utilizes it.

The placement of extremes in relation to each other is an aesthetic thing some find compelling (created via The Hound’s size and scars against Sansa’s remarkable beauty and youth, Dany’s size, eye and hair color contrasted with Drogo or Jorah’s…), but more importantly, a thematic thing. We see the contrast vividly with Brienne and Jaime as well as Sansa and the Hound. Their appearance is at odds, of course, but what really matters are how their values are contrasted. Sansa’s beliefs and her nature are entirely opposed to the Hound’s, and if you think of Jorah as the knight exiled for being a slaver and the shame of his house helping the woman who attempts to end slavery (until she needs it) and restore her house…well, you get a version of that there too.

Being that Martin has stated he played with the Beauty and the Beast angle with Sansa and the Hound, but was surprised people shipped it, we should accept that Martin uses tropes/references for different purposes, not necessarily to signal an endgame romance or mutual interest even if that is the initial thought by the reader. Martin likes the inside/outside view of things, likes to examine ideas from multiple perspectives, and a character occupying different roles throughout the story allows him to extract a lot of meaning. Fans like to focus on how Sansa is wrong about a certain character, but the main intent behind all of this is the author challenging his reader when he forces us to examine and re-examine who characters are and what he is saying with them. The lyrics of the song twists our perception of things, so, even if I reject how it’s often applied, I agree that the concept behind the song is being discussed in these relationships.

We see the same beast/knight ideas with the Hound and Sansa as with Jorah and Dany. Both Dany and Sansa have these guys who are associated with specific animals (bear, hound), who function as protectors at some point even though they also betray them. Jorah’s betrayal is labeled as such in the book, but the Hound going from rescuing Sansa to assaulting her is a betrayal as well. Both men develop loyalty to the girls, they offer some protection, both have a sexual interest in the girls and both sexually harass them (Jorah kisses Dany without permission, the Hound assaults Sansa). I suppose Sansa and the Hound fit a little better with parts of the song because the girl is initially frightened by the bear while Jorah presents quite differently despite all the bear references. The bear-ish description of Jorah isn’t just the bear sigil, we also get all the hair stuff:

"I shall wish to speak with Ser Jorah before the night is done," her brother said. Dany found herself looking at the knight curiously. He was an older man, past forty and balding, but still strong and fit. Instead of silks and cottons, he wore wool and leather. His tunic was a dark green, embroidered with the likeness of a black bear standing on two legs. (AGOT, Daenerys I)

“He had a neck and shoulders like a bull, and coarse black hair covered his arms and chest so thickly that there was none left for his head.” (AGOT, Daenerys III)

and of course, he is referenced as a bear pretty often:

“Ser Jorah, her gruff old bear” (ADWD, Daenerys VI) and he’s referred to as her “bear knight” (ADWD, Daenerys III) and “My bear, she thought, my old sweet bear” (ADWD, Daenerys X).

I selected those from ADWD because to me, that’s when it for sure was deliberately connecting back to the song as Tyrion puts Jorah in the role of the bear:

"That one is part of our show. The bear and the maiden fair. Jorah is the bear, Penny is the maiden, I am the brave knight who rescues her. I dance about and hit him in the balls. Very funny." (ADWD, Tyrion X)

So, we begin the story knowing Jorah is a bear (Mormont), that he’s described as bear/beast, called a bear/bear knight, and then eventually, he’s playacting the bear from the song. Interestingly, the "knight" who fights the bear is acted by someone Martin has called a villain. I could never argue that the author isn’t being intentionally self-referential, he clearly is. However, we do have the fact that Jorah betrayed/molested Dany, and this:

Jorah Mormont's face was dark with anger, but he answered. "To serve her. Defend her. Die for her, if need be."

That made the widow laugh. "You want to rescue her, is that the way of it? From more enemies than I can name, with swords beyond count … this is what you'd have the poor widow believe? That you are a true and chivalrous Westerosi knight crossing half the world to come to the aid of this … well, she is no maiden, though she may still be fair." (ADWD, Tyrion VII)

I’m uncomfortable with the emphasis placed on virginity in the books and hate to use that (or beauty) as a determining factor in which couple the song is “really” about, but we have this line which I see as direct guidance from Martin about interpreting the Dany and Jorah relationship as a straight up version of The Bear and the Maiden Fair. The way it’s presented and challenged indicates that while in a particular dynamic or in a specific scene a character fulfills a certain role, that isn’t necessarily their overall role. To me, looking at the story as a whole, Brienne’s role is true knight, more so than maiden. Just as the idea that Dany is the maiden/damsel is present in her interactions with Jorah, but that isn’t her role in the story as a whole, no more than Jorah is the true knight. (He’s a slaver ffs).

As for the Jaime and Brienne of it, Jaime protecting Breinne from a bear slots him into the knight role, but as they struggle over who is fighting the bear, there’s a play on who is in the knight role and who is in the “maiden” role. Also, Brienne is mockingly called beauty and Jaime is described as a beast, and while those characters are being cruel to Brienne, to the reader, we know Jaime has done horrible things (attempted kid killing = monstrous), and we know Brienne is the purist soul (goodness=beauty), so taking a step away from the superficial, we are getting a layered play on the trope. And yes, Brienne is a virgin and Jaime a knight, we can leave it there, but Brienne is a knight in the truest sense and Jaime is beautiful, so I think the best way to look at this question of who this song is “about” is to accept that the trope being discussed is getting a rotisserie chicken treatment. We’re allowed to see it from every juicy angle, not limited to one. After all, Jorah is a knight and a bear.

Of course, as I already said, since the author likes to reference things without implementing them the way people expect, this doesn’t necessarily mean romantic endgame, but saying that doesn’t mean I’m dismissing Braime because I do think Martin wrote in the romantic stuff deliberately. The whole knights/fools etc is at play in that scene too:

"What are you doing here?"

"Something stupid. Get behind me." He circled toward her, putting himself between Brienne and the bear. (ASOS, Jaime VI)

Brienne is referenced as the maid in this scene, but later she reads like a knight on a quest to save the fair maiden --Sansa. We even get some “The Bear and the Maiden Fair” singing there. If they ever meet, I would expect some beauty/beast discussion to crop up just as part of this continuing conversation about roles, part of the characters revolving through them to allow the author to thoroughly analyze the ideas and evolve what fairytales are/say. In their pairing, Brienne would be the knight to Sansa’s maiden to allow for Martin to contrast Brienne with all of our failed knights.

We get a lot of duality with these characters/their roles which means we can ask, who is the knight/who is the bear and come up with many, many answers. All of them true in a certain light, only to then turn them on their head. Sometimes, a failed knight rises to the occasion, and sometimes the maiden saves the knight, and sometimes, the knights are evil, sometimes the knight isn’t a true knight. Sometimes salvation comes from where you least expect it, and sometimes, rescuers are also a threat. The roles are there, but Martin is playing with them, challenging them, so the multiple ways we can read these characters and dynamics is very much intentional. All of that being said, it’s undeniable that there is one maiden for whom the song is particularly relevant.

Sansa fits the maiden role in a much more overarching way than our other contenders. Not only because she’s a virgin, not simply because of her interest in romance or because so much of her story has been driven by various people’s sexual/political interest in her/marrying her, but because she represents certain attributes, foremost of them, mercy. We get in trouble when talking about how beautiful she is, but it can’t be disregarded because she represents hope, innocence, compassion, peace. Martin made her beautiful not just as a physical thing, rather, because she is representative of ideas; she is the beauty of certain ideals.

The Hound who laughs at killing children is moved to protect her, can’t follow through on his own desire to harm her. Dontos tells her,

"A knight?" Joffrey had decreed that he was to be a knight no longer, only a fool, lower even than Moon Boy. "I prayed to the gods for a knight to come save me," she said. "I prayed and prayed. Why would they send me a drunken old fool?"

"I deserve that, though . . . I know it's queer, but . . . all those years I was a knight, I was truly a fool, and now that I am a fool I think . . . I think I may find it in me to be a knight again, sweet lady. And all because of you . . . your grace, your courage. You saved me, not only from Joffrey, but from myself." (ACOK, Sansa II)

Personification is a thing and even though she is a multidimensional character, I think the way Martin has written Sansa makes it clear that he is calling back to old archetypes here which is why, when you hear “maiden fair,” Sansa is the referenced character in an overarching way, not just in a specific dynamic, not just in a specific chapter or one book, but in the series, this is who she is in a way that no other character is.

Her role in the story is notably the tropey damsel in distress/princess in the tower (in a way that Dany and Brienne are not), and even with the revision of what that means by a modern author, even with the idea growing and evolving into something new, with the girl having far more agency and inner life than in older stories, it’s so clear this is who she is that even her haters know it. They call her a princess in a tower to show their disdain, but all they’re doing is admitting that even they recognize who she is in the story.

And of course, there is the fact that Sansa is referred to as a fair maiden, even in her TWOW chapter, that her beauty is often remarked upon, and that she has some parallels with Persephone which seems pertinent due to the Beauty and the Beast/Hades and Persephone/Death and the Maiden connection:

Petyr cut a pomegranate in two with his dagger, offering half to Sansa. "You should try and eat, my lady."

"Thank you, my lord." Pomegranate seeds were so messy; Sansa chose a pear instead, and took a small delicate bite. It was very ripe. The juice ran down her chin. (ASOS,

LF is her uncle (by marriage), he spirits her away from KL and is clearly intent on making her his, and as we know, he’s orchestrated destruction for her family/the realm, so he fits in here as a kind of Hades (death) to Sansa’s maiden which is relevant considering how loosely related death and the maiden is to the beauty and the beast idea.

However, the thing that feels the most like the author directing us to a specific conclusion must be reading her first chapter in ASOS which might as well be called “the Bear and the Maiden Fair chapter” because we finally get the lyrics to the song, and it’s interspersed into a scenario that is kinda telling a similar story. Sansa wants a beautiful knight (Loras), but is offered a stranger instead (Willas). We’ve also just read a speedrun through all the fake knights/bears/suitors/“love interests” Sansa (or fans) have selected for her:

Sansa wondered if Joffrey knew of this supper. For all she knew, it might be his doing. That thought made her fearful. If Joff was behind the invitation, he would have some cruel jape planned to shame her in the older girl's eyes. Would he command his Kingsguard to strip her naked once again? The last time he had done that his uncle Tyrion had stopped him, but the Imp could not save her now.

No one can save me but my Florian. Ser Dontos had promised he would help her escape, but not until the night of Joffrey's wedding. The plans had been well laid, her dear devoted knight-turned-fool assured her; there was nothing to do until then but endure, and count the days.

[…]

Even so, she must accept. She was nothing now, the discarded daughter of a traitor and disgraced sister of a rebel lord. She could scarcely refuse Joffrey's queen-to-be.

I wish the Hound were here. The night of the battle, Sandor Clegane had come to her chambers to take her from the city, but Sansa had refused. Sometimes she lay awake at night, wondering if she'd been wise. She had his stained white cloak hidden in a cedar chest beneath her summer silks. She could not say why she'd kept it. (ASOS, Sansa I)

So, we have the prince who turned out to be a monster (Joffrey), the guy everyone thinks of as a monster who protects her (Tyrion), a knight who she saved but sexually harasses her (Dontos), a man who threatens her but ended up saving her only to then turn around and be a threat himself (The Hound). See what I mean about multiple roles? My gosh, it’s almost like the author has intentionally been writing variations of the song into Sansa’s story all along, or even, dare I say it, he's written Sansa’s story into a song, only, none of these match up perfectly, so we are still waiting for the true(est) incarnation of this song to manifest into her story.

Or, all of that shorter:

"I CALLED FOR A KNIGHT, BUT YOU'RE A BEAR! (ASOS, Sansa I)

"I prayed to the gods for a knight to come save me," she said. "I prayed and prayed. Why would they send me a drunken old fool?" (ACOK, Sansa II)

So, if Sansa is the maiden of the song, the maiden fair of A Song of Ice and Fire, who is the bear, who’s the knight? More importantly, where is this poor girl’s hero?

Y’all, this is getting ridiculously long. Now, I’ve never not done something for a silly reason like not wanting to appear ridiculous, but I can’t post seven thousand words all at once. tumblr staff will deactivate my account to save me from myself! I will get to Jon and the Jonsa of it all in part two.

#dot chat #jonsa #and all of these for filtering:#anti the hound #anti sansan #anti jorah #anti jorleesi #anti Tyrion #anti Littlefinger

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