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supremechancellorrex · 1 year

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I hear a lot of anti-Jedi and pro-Jedi going back and forth on this platform, but I wonder if we're only dealing in absolutes. That's it, everyone on tumblr is a Sith. Confirmed.

But, seriously (I was serious), are the Jedi good? Are they evil? Are they somewhere inbetween? And what is the system they support? Are they being their 'best selves' by the twilight years of the Republic? Am I a jerk? Are they jerks? Are you a jerk? Well... let's look at both sides and canon as it is, and see where it goes.

Should we ignore the problems and implications?

Dogma: "No! We have orders! We have to go through with this!"

First things first, let's start with negativity, because that's life possibly. There are a number of criticisms which are levelled against the Jedi in the canon. The Star Wars writers didn't always just put scenes and lines in for fun.

Slick: "It's the Jedi who keep my brothers enslaved. We serve at your whim. We do your bidding. I just wanted something more."

The Jedi are accused of slavery in Star Wars: The Clone Wars, which was created by George Lucas as Executive Producer, along with Dave Filoni and a whole host of writers working in collaboration. When Slick accuses the Jedi of being his and other clones' slave masters, it is never refuted by any of the characters, even Obi-Wan and Anakin who he is speaking to. It's never refused by the narrative at all.

Canonically, the Jedi as citizens and being military generals act as the clones superiors and also masters by proxy in the command chain. Slick's accusation is that the Jedi "keep [his] brothers" enslaved, not that they even necessarily enslaved them in the first place. He is indicating that the Jedi have power and agency, which they do as natborn citizens, but they don't direct it for justice and meaningful change in regards to clone rights.

Satine Kryze: "I remember a time when Jedi were not Generals, but peacekeepers."

Now, people have argued that the Jedi do help the clones and they are "in charge of [the clones] care", as Master Shaak Ti says during a continuing arguement where her and Nala Se debated on who Tup, Fives and clones in general belonged to as "property". The Jedi could think themselves better caretakers of the clones troopers than natborn officers like Tarkin, although this verges on character speculation. Canonically, we do see evidence of care, such as Shaak Ti advocating for Domino Squad and calling them "living beings" that didn't deserve to be "cast aside", Mace and Plo Koon and other Jedi do show concern for their men's lives.

But, arguably it doesn't account for much when the Jedi are still working in the framework and structures of slavery instead of protesting it. Being kind to clones doesn't mean much when you prop up the meat-grinder of a system that uses them as cannon fodder.

This is exemplified in the show itself.

Ahsoka: "It's every citizen's duty to challenge their leaders, to keep them honest, and hold them accountable if they're not.”

Unjust actors and systems are to be challenged. The Jedi being nice isn't an absolution for their participation in this system, just as a slave master or a deputy slave master being nice in any context doesn't change the fact that they are still in command of slaves getting thrown into the meat grinder every day. If you support an unjust system, you bear responsibility.

And, moreover, despite moments of compassion from Jedi, for people who value life, the Jedi as an organisation still show a concerning ease with clone death as the war progresses. The Citadel Arc is a great example of this. As Clone Trooper Charger falls to his death and collides with a shock mine, Obi-Wan sasses "Well, they know we're here now" as the other clones still are reaching out in horror. Every time a clone dies on that mission, they leave them behind, even Echo (who turns out to still be alive and is captured by the enemy and tortured). However, despite the urgency of the mission, when Jedi Master Even Piell dies, the Jedi pause the mission to give him a funeral and burial even though the enemy is closing in. If there was ever a message that the Jedi value their slave soldiers' lives less, this is it.

Further evidence includes the fact that Jedi Master Pong Krell's casualty numbers were well-known in the military, to point Torrent Company were openly debating them, and yet no other Jedi General had felt the need to propose a military investigation. Additionally, when the Jedi were fed the cover story the inhibitor chips in their men's brain were just designed to make them less aggressive and more docile, there is no evidence they protested this mental violation. Another neglect in a series of many. Taking this into regard, I think the unfortunate implications are clear.

Perhaps the Jedi should find better use for their mind tricks and lightsabers than cutting up droids and planetary militias all while propping up an unjust regime?

Master enablers

Jedi Master Dooku: "The Jedi blindly serve a corrupt Senate that fails the Republic it represents."

Canonically, the Jedi are deeply flawed as an organisation. They are politically centrist in a way that does not benefit either themselves or the Republic in end, shown to be enablers that uphold the system and law as it is, regardless of how unjust.

How can the Jedi have the high ground when they appease a Senate that supports slavery regardless of how the writers try to downplay it? How can they be morally righteous when they bow down, without much resistance if at all, to such system that uses slave soldiers? Clones die under Jedi command, they work in the Jedi Temple as both soldiers and technicians. The Jedi claim they just can't get involved in changing the system because it's beyond their mandate when what's on their doorstep, what's in their temple, is slavery, slavery that they even benefit from arguably to even maintain their transports and technical systems.

For any person or group in any system, there's a breaking point where things have gone too far, but how much one tolerates up until that point says a lot about their moral character. The Jedi were drafted by the Chancellor (Oh you) and perhaps they thought being 'kind' to the clones when they interacted with them was enough, but it wasn't. And while the Jedi continue to believe in the Republic far beyond acceptable, victims mount.

During the Wrong Jedi Arc, the Jedi Order also show themselves in bad light. It would have been one thing to believe Ahsoka was guilty and leave it at that, yet they practically threw Ahsoka under the bus for politics in reality. Mace kept talking about the politics, essentially showing Jedi PR was a more important factor than Ahsoka's life.

Mace Windu: "I understand your sentiment, Obi-Wan. But, if the council does as you suggest. It could be seen as an act of opposition to the Senate. I'm afraid we have little choice."

Meanwhile, Obi-Wan advocated for Ahsoka briefly, expressing doubts at her guilt, but at best casts a vote in her favour when he knows it won't be enough. Give it to Anakin in this instance, at least he did an actual private investigate to prevent a wrongful conviction instead of sitting back. Like Asajj Ventress said when confronted by Anakin, the Order abandoned Ahsoka and appease a Senate that supports authoritarian policies, kangaroo court trials and a slave army. What a state to die for.

Ahsoka: “This is why the people have lost faith in the Jedi. I had, too, until I was reminded of what the Order means to people who truly need us.”

How can the Jedi believe in the Republic to the point they were surprised when they got inevitably screwed over? Again, the narrative supports the idea the Jedi have lost their way and become enforcers for the Senate, however fascist and dangerous it has clearly become. You kind of have to have in order to become key leaders of a slave army when you were peacekeepers beforehand. The Republic is failing, but so are the Jedi. They fight the war with the tools they are given, from their lightsabers to their slave soldiers, with no solution or appropriate concern for the legislative catastrophe happening at the heart of the Republic until they realise Palpatine's been in a little long with his executive powers. They enforce laws, unjust systems and follow orders.

Fives: "I'm sorry. I cannot just follow orders when I know they're wrong. Especially when lives are at stake."

Captain Rex: "You will if you support the system we fight for."

Fives: "I do support it. I do! But I am not just another number! None of us are!"

TCW shows us that following rules and regulations when they're immoral is the wrong course of action, yet no matter the signs and warning, the Jedi continue to play into Palpatine's hands with their misguided patriotism as the Republic becomes increasing draconian and despotic. The most problematic factor about the Jedi is that they don't acknowledge the problems and the fact the clones' situation is unacceptable on every ground. They don't acknowledge the clones' situation, they don't acknowledge the Republic is bad or try to think of solutions to that even if they don't work. The situation is complicated, but the Jedi went along with bad options when they should have known what the Republic was by this point. How can the Jedi enforce justice when they enforce the corruption of it?

The Jedi continue to believe in the Republic and their part in he hierarchy when it seems more akin to a hostage situation with slaves in the balance. If they're blind, they're fools. If they knew, they're knowing enablers.

A tight spot

Obi-Wan Kenobi: "For over a thousand generations, the Jedi knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the old Republic... before the dark times... before the empire."

Now, the flaws in the Jedi are clear, but it's all well and good to critique them. What could the Jedi have done effectively instead? If the Jedi were more keyed in on the Republic's unsalvageable system and decided to be proactive in regards to it, what could they do realistically? Aside from the emotional weight of getting people to abandon their home and a multi-generation relationship the stretches back centuries and centuries, the logistics of getting 10,000 people to desert and transporting them without the Republic and GAR noticing and stepping in feels unrealistic. Not only this, but they'd be ditching the clones to slavery yet again, as it's not like the Jedi can all desert and take the clones with them like they're plushie toys. Each clone is a different individual and deprogramming child soldiers is difficult.

People like Dogma, Neyo and Bacara wouldn't canonically desert without the right circumstances, Captain Rex wouldn't just desert with Anakin, nor could Obi-Wan sashay Commander Cody and his troops away like some of the fandom thinks. A lot of clones were indoctrinated to be loyal to the Republic from a young age. If the Jedi had just flat out tried desert, Order 66 would have likely happened earlier and Palpatine would have easily painted the Jedi as traitors.

Of course, there are the inhibitor chips as also a factor, but we can only judge the moral character of the Jedi based on the knowledge they did have and what they chose to do with it.

Barriss Offee: "An army fighting for the dark side. Fallen from the light we hold so dear. This Republic is failing. It's only a matter of time."

However, this is no excuse for the Jedi Order choosing the worst option out of a bad bunch. The Jedi crossed the moral precipice. They crossed it ever since AOTC when they decided that indoctrinated, slave soldier of dubious origin were just what they needed to throw into the desert meatgrinder that is Geonosis as the war started. There reasons make sense in their way, there's millions of units of droid army marching their way and the Republic and Senate have only a ten-thousand strong Jedi and the Judicial Forces. At the same time, the reasons for that humanitarian crisis aren't justifications. 'Cool motive. Still slavery' applies here.

Ethically, Yoda and Mace shouldn't have just gone along with the draft without any counter-strategy, especially if they cared about the clones as human beings and a people. They could have pretended cooperation and done discreet resistance at least. Of course, the Jedi even if they resisted weren't probably gonna have a happy ending, as generations under Republic thumb had neutered them and taken their passion and power, but they would have taken the moral and right action.

Instead, the Jedi remain the face of the war effort, using a Trojan Horse slave army just given to them with no real protest. If the Star Wars had truly wanted the Jedi to be wholly good, they'd have had them be more begrudging, cynical and weary at being pressured and coerced by the state. There'd be growing Anti-Republic sentiment, which would have been a start. Rebellion, dissent and mutiny would have been even more valuable and expected. Instead, the Jedi Order are loyal to the regime until the very last moments of the war.

In Conclusion

In the twilight years of the Republic, Palpatine really used every weakness of the Jedi against them. As an organisation, the Jedi really can't save themselves. Individuals can, as shown by Ahsoka leaving, but the Republic destroyed the Jedi, it took their soul, it bureaucratised and militarised their culture, and the Jedi just slid down that slope. That's part of why the people felt abandoned by the Jedi, as the Jedi were too melded to the system both functionally and idealistically, trapped in the snake, them and what they stood for slowly digested as they safeguarded and enforced unjust status quos. Even when Dooku was young, as The Tales of the Jedi said, they were already damned. Ahsoka left, every Jedi should have at that point. The Republic definitely would fight an en masse desertion, but it'd have been the right thing to do.

Some Jedi realised and left, others were too committed the belief of a Jedi Order that had become a shadow of what it was. The Jedi are a warning of what happens when governments, hierarchies and religion connect and influence each other for centuries. At the same time, adult Jedi were responsible for their actions, and each could have done more for the clones than they did.

Fives: "We must be trusted to make the right decision, especially when the orders we are given are wrong!"

#star wars #the jedi order #jedi #anti jedi #pro jedi #i try ok #individuals are lovely #the clones #clone troopers #clone rights #the clones deserve better #star wars tcw #the clone wars #arc trooper fives #ahsoka tano #barriss offee

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class-a-fanatic · 10 months

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#star wars #mace windu #pro jedi #anti jedi #jedi #prequels #the clone wars

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dailydragon08 · 8 months

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I hate the “no attachments” rhetoric so much and I hate that both Ahsoka and Luke in Mando and TBOBF fell straight back into it. Cuz they especially should know more than anyone that the feelings of isolation, feeling like you’re not in a safe space to healthily process your emotions—which requires actually feeling them and being in an environment where you’re allowed to feel them—and feeling like you have a support system where you can speak your feelings without judgment to get guidance and support is REQUIRED for Jedi to stay on the light side. Cuz loneliness, feeling like a burden, feeling like if you have one bad emotion it makes you all bad because of rules around feelings that are unrealistic and too rigorous makes you way more susceptible to the dark side.

Trying to beat bad emotions out of people completely is unrealistic. Expecting literal children to not feel those feelings and just know what to do with them cuz you’ve created a space where those feelings are forbidden is unrealistic. Pushing feelings and emotions down and “burying” them (re: obi wan telling luke “bury your feelings deep down” in ROTJ) and expecting those people to be perfectly healthy is unrealistic. Wanting this level of control over people, their thoughts, and their emotions, and this black and white thinking is not only toxic and dangerous, but is akin to cult culture. The PT era Jedi were extremists in this way and just too blind and couldn’t accept any criticism enough to see it because for some reason, a bunch of old guys decided evolution was not allowed and they’d just keep running the system the same way they always had with no room for change and that would somehow be this foolproof path to survival—which is a complaint a lot of people have about our current irl political system and is causing a lot of damage, btw.

Like wasn’t that the whole point of showing the Jedi’s fall? And doesn’t clone wars especially show how this thinking created all these cracks in the system that Palpatine was easily able to exploit and manipulate and Anakin was just someone who wanted change in the order and he was ostracized for it, so Palpatine latched onto him and Anakin was like “oh finally someone values me,” just to be manipulated and abused and have his whole life blown up to the point that he thought the empire was his only option (obv not excusing the atrocities, just saying I can see how he got to where he did mentally by ROTS)? Like he literally tells Luke that they can team up to overthrow the emperor and in ROTJ, when Luke tries to get him to run with him pre-throne room battle, he says “it’s too late for me,” so he KNOWS this is bad and only going to get worse, but has resigned himself to it.

Like wasn’t the whole point of the OT and the “I can’t kill my own father/there’s still good in him/I can turn him back to the good side” meant to prove that Jedi DO NEED healthy connections in order to thrive and stay on the light side? If they wanna forbid anything, they should be forbidding possession and control, but the PT Jedi Council instead used that for their own benefit and lacked any self awareness to see they’d just become what they were preaching against.

Like give me a post-OT Jedi council who teaches healthy connection and letting things go that aren’t meant for you to control and that friendships and relationships can be powerful things that bring you back to the light in your darkest moments, and a more Legends-esque New Jedi Order that values emotional health and well-being and is a safe space for not only the galaxy, but Force sensitives, no matter how they’re built instead of trying to force everyone into the same box. This is the order I wanted to see Luke cultivate in canon and I will forever be salty that this isn’t what we got.

#luke skywalker #star wars #star wars discussion #anti sw sequels #anti disney star wars #anti jedi #anti jedi council #anti prequel era jedi #new jedi order #anakin skywalker #darth vader #anti no attachment #the mandolarian #tbobf #mandolorian spoilers #the book of boba fett #tbobf spoilers #the book of boba fett spoilers

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rainofaugustsith · 10 months

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So it seems like the Jedi Wars are heating up again, sigh. I have fandom sheriffs blocked instantly here. I am leaving reblogs on this open but I am warning in advance that you do not want to come at me on this post because the response will be an immediate block with no engagement. So you should really save yourself the trouble of typing it out. But I feel like some of the essential points are being missed. Namely:

Nobody has to like the Jedi.

Nobody has to approve of the Jedi.

Fans really are entitled to think the Jedi are terrible and their tactics are terrible.

All of this is about a work of fiction.

People, again, are entitled to have opinions about the media they consume.

None of that, in any way, affects people who are Jedi fans/apologists unless they actively choose to make it their problem.

Most of the time those of us who don't dig the Jedi are in our corner and don't give a damn what you're doing as long as you don't bother us.

It would be really nice if some those who liked the Jedi would remember those basic principles - but they have to Fandom Sheriff things and to loudly and aggressively let everyone else know They're Wrong. They come storming into posts, even when the OP has warned they do not want discourse, to try to engage and argue to tell people They're Wrong. They accuse people who Are Wrong!! with having sympathies for real-world fascism and Nazis, which is offensive on more levels than I can even articulate. They insist that if you don't share their opinion you must have issues with "Eastern Religion" (which is a pretty damn vague way to consider not only multiple streams of Buddhism but the many MANY other religions practiced in the "East" that have a very wide range of beliefs. As well as a big damned stretch considering it was all written by a Protestant white man from the USA. As well as the fact that we are again talking about a piece of fictional media and not a real world long established religion). Their way is apparently the only way one can possibly believe about a piece of fiction and they will aggressively butt into your conversations and posts to tell you.

All of which, at the end of the day, is a lot like evangelism/fundamentalism.

If you like the Jedi, there are ways to actively avoid those of us who do not agree with you. Filter tags. Block. Cultivate your fandom experience to surround yourself with people who have similar views. Associate with people who are mature enough to realize a mutual can disagree with their interpretation of a work of fiction without accusing them of being a Nazi. Hell, that's what we all do to avoid you whenever possible.

But grow the hell up and realize that not everyone will share your opinions on your favorites in fictional media, people with differences of opinion are entitled to them, and they are also entitled to their own fandom experience without you yipping at their heels and squeaking indignantly in their conversations.

#fandom critical #anti Jedi #Jedi critical #seriously would you please grow up

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ironwoodatl01 · 7 months

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The Jedi Suck

That is the entire premise of the Prequel Trilogy.

The Republic fell because too few were willing to fight for its principles.

The Jedi were, for better or worse, the lapdogs of the corrupted Republic.

It is arguable as to how the Jedi sucked during the prequel era, but to argue that the Jedi did not suck at all would be to fly in the face of the premise of the entire prequel trilogy.

#jedi critical #anti jedi #star wars #anti jedi apologism

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eelfuneral · 6 months

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The bitchy, emotional part of me wishes that the Jedi Order would be forced to grovel at the feet of and apologize to the clones for being complicit (as an organization) in the enslavement of the clones. The clones are afforded zero mercy by the narrative, and “I’m sorry” is the very least that the Jedi Order could have done.

#jedi critical #anti jedi

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passionesolja · 10 months

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Serious question and all answers is valid.

So, the Darth Plagueis novel keeps a lot of shit about Sidious’ training unknown (we get one snippet of what his early training was) but

like what do y’all think Plagueis did to Sidious to make him Sidious?

Bc yeah Sheev Palpatine is a selfish and bratty young man but you’d have to be super biased against Sheev Palpatine to not see the huge difference in personality and behavior between Sheev Palpatine pre-Plagueis and Darth Sidious.

Sheev is going against his dad and being really petty about it, but a lil self centered brat. Sidious is a psychopath and a puppeteer.

I mean that generally I am NOT pro-Cosinga Palpatine. I can’t stand him he literally was a terrible father and his treatment of sheev is what made Sidious form into existence. He the Dario Brando of Star Wars tbh

Basically what I’m tryna say is that Sheev Palpatine as we see him before Plagueis is nothing like Sidious, like yeah you can draw some vague connections but realistically, Sheev probably would’ve become a better person once he hit 21 and matured a lil bit. Maybe lived life more and learned empathy from it.

Sheev Palpatine was not on the course to being a Sidious type Mf before he became Plaguies’ apprentice.

Maybe I’m just biased here but Sheev not having tact and empathy during an vehicular homicide he committed when he was probably like 13-15 years old doesn’t damn him to being Sidious. It doesn’t say anything about his true nature as a human being other than him being a lil immature and selfish dumbass kid.

Anakin wiped out a whole village at 19 but mfs still paint him as an victim. Sheev was 17 when he became Plaguies’ apprentice so we can garner that he wasn’t that old when he accidentally smoked them two pedestrians.

I know that y’all like to paint Sidious as being evil but it’s obvious that whatever happened to Maul and Vader and nem likewise also happened to Sidious but Sidious just was boss bitch enough to take Plaguies out.

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faerromagnetic · 24 days

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I honestly do not get why the majority opinion on here seems to be that The Acolyte is an Anti-Jedi Hit Piece. A Sith Propagands Show. The Acolyte is to The Jedi as Das Kapital is to Capitalism.

Like, you do know the person speaking that line is a villain right? You do know that High Republic has a history of bad guys framing the Jedi and the Republic as Fascists and Dictators right?

Why is this any different? Why are y'all acting like this is an HBomberguy call out and take down piece over the Jedi?

The saddest part is, this will never be seen by literally anyone. The only people talking about this show is just posting to rant about how much Disney hates the Jedi. Goddamn.

#star wars #the acolyte #pro jedi #pro-jedi #anti-jedi #anti jedi #pro Acolyte

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marveltaughtmetoread · 1 year

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The thing I have always struggled with is yeah in the Clone Wars the Jedi are shown to have a mature and healthy response to their emotions, they grieve but they don't let it consume, they keep a level head even in times of crisis

There is a whole separate point to be made about the disconnect between how the Jedi are shown to handle their emotions and what they teach Anakin (and by extension the audience) about how to handle emotions, but that's not relevant here

It's not the way they handle their emotions that is the issue, it's their actions and responses to situations that has always been my problem

Their actions are uncaring, especially taking into account their connection to the force

These are people who can sense in the force whether or not others are alive and to some extent what's happening around them yet in both Weapons Factory from Season 2 and Rising Malevolence from Season 1, the Jedi are shown to give up on people in a way that clearly assumes they are dead

They give up on Plo and his troopers because they don't believe there is any hope of saving them, and it is not worth risking the lives of others for people who are already dead

Luminara gives up on her Padawan Bariss and Anakin's Padawan Ashoka when they are buried in rebel and encourages Anakin to move on

The problem with both these incidents is the Jedi should know they're alive

Proximity is to a certain extent a factor, it's only the powerful Jedi we see reacting to and being able to sense what is happening with others across large distances

But Luminara is standing pretty damn close to where her living Padawan is, yet she collapsed to the floor as if she has felt Bariss die, this paints her attachment as a bald faced lie, she should know Bariss is still alive but in the face of adversity (which is mild considering the Jedi's ability to lift things with their minds) she gives up, dooming both Bariss and Ashoka to die, in this situation Anakin's response is the correct one, people have tried to save random strangers from building collapses with significantly less certainty that they will find people alive than Luminara has, but she has given up before even attempting to rescue them, her actions become callous and a horrific response to the situation, not because of how she handles her emotions but what she chooses to do in the face of possibly loosing someone

She appears to be so willing to detach herself from others that she will leave you for dead given the slightest provocation

And Plo's situation is slightly more dire, everyone acts like he is either dead or going to die, because they lost contact with him, once again they should know that he is alive because of the force, but they just assume he is dead and are willing to move on based on that assumption

They aren't willing to risk other people's lives based on a fool's errand, but we know the audience know Plo is still alive and so should they

What's more the have one of their best pilots close by, who they could send on a solo mission to scout or maybe attempt to rescue them, they don't have to send a whole fleet because agree that would be suicide, but a small craft flown by a skillful pilot aided by the force would be a lot safer as Anakin himself proves by going against them

They had options but instead, they assume Plo is dead and once again doom Plo and his clones, who have already (in a move that does not reflect well on the Jedi) assumed no one is going to save them, and they would have been right had Anakin, once again, gone against what the Jedi thought was best to rescue them

The Jedi should know that people are still alive so their choice to give up and move on to grieving - even if that grief is expressed in a healthy way - is abhorrent

I can't emphasise this enough, random strangers have done more to save each other in times of crisis, with less certainty of anyone even being alive to save, than the Jedi do for their allies, those they are responsible for, and the people they control, yet it is the Jedi who people expect me to root for

Them managing their emotions well doesn't mean shit in the face of callous disregard for life

#star wars #star wars prequels #jedi order #jedi council #star wars the clone wars #anakin skywalker #jedi #anti jedi #jedi critical #star wars clone wars #star wars discourse #luminara unduli #bariss offee #tcw ahsoka #ahsoka and anakin #ahsoka tano #plo kloon #clone troopers #vina rants

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