I see a lot of meta talking about how the John Verses are John telling the story of the leadup to the apocalypse with the most sympathetic biased self-justifying gloss to make it sound like nothing was his fault, and I guess that's why so many readings go for a hardline worst-faith interpretation of them, but.... I don't really see it.

When he tells about how he murdered everyone who had a gun, he could have played up the self-defense angle. He could have claimed he was scared, and he did it to protect everyone. He could have emphasized that he was killing cops, instead of emphasizing the civilians. He could have stuck with the story he told at the time, that he freaked out and made a mistake and hadn't meant to kill them all. He doesn't. He admits to mass murder, and he admits to having done it because he was angry. And he admits to still not regretting it one bit.

The story John tells just doesn't paint him in the best possible light. He does include all of the justifications he used at the time, he does explain why on earth any of this ever seemed like a good idea to anyone, and he does want to be understood, but he doesn't really try to sell it as having been right.

I really don't see the verse chapters as being John's justification. They're his confession. That's why they feel so good to condemn.

do you mind elaborating on why you are anti bri/jame? no worries if you don't want to talk about it. i myself first read their riverlands arc as a redemption arc for J and an internal honor arc for both of them rather than a romantic one, then i saw that a lot of people shipped it. so i'm always interested in seeing why people have stronger opinions on the ship (both pro and anti) than i do. - maxine

Don’t worry, this is fine. Indeed, I’d like to talk about them, so thanks for asking.

Note that my opinions are based on when I read the books 7 years ago, so a) my memories are bound to be vague, and b) I never gave the show version of them a shipping chance.

My foremost reason why I don’t ship them is because Jaime treats Brienne like shit. He insults her aloud and in his head and I don’t abide this kind of bullying, least of all the concept of from bully to lover. No bullying victim deserves this, and I think only someone who wasn’t bullied can imagine not only to forgive a bully, but also to fall in love with them. But that’s just me. I don’t think a bullying victim can ever fully trust their bully (again) which is necessary for love. It’s hard for bullying victims to trust people in general, and Jaime cuts into the very same wounds Brienne already had to deal with for years. So it’s good that he changes, but that is only basic human decency, not romance. I mean, look at Tormund in the show. He admires Brienne from the start and supports her. I don’t remember for sure if his behaviour is always appropriate (ID, whether his behaviour borders on sexual harassment), but his affection is what I think someone like Brienne needs. So this is why I couldn’t see Jaime and Brienne in a romantic light from the start.

Another point, which is somewhat different to the first, is that I think their morals are incompatible. Their contrast is well-written and was a good idea for the story and character development, but I see it mostly as this: a plot device. I like how Jaime and Brienne display different aspects of chivalry to explore its meaning and, in my opinion, to undermine it. Jaime is seen as the perfect knight because he comes from the right family, has the right job, great fighting skills and looks good. But all of these traits are shallow and have nothing to with chivalry and moral behaviour or with Jaime as a person, who is indifferent, self-serving, biased, weak-willed, ruthless and living in an adulterous, incestuous (and traitorous) relationship. And while he is praised for his superficially “good” traits, he is reviled for the one thing he did out of convinction it was the morally right deed for the greater good - killing Aerys. I find him very interesting for this, because he embodies so well the main message of moral ambiguity in ASOIAF. Jaime follows his own opinions, but the problem is that he has so few. He could be willing to subvert Westerosi conventions if he cared enough and dared to act, but like everyone else, he is still bound by rules too. Or rather he lets himself be ruled and manipulated by Cersei and Tywin as he’s too coward to really go his own way and rather remains in toxic relationships. But as the story progresses, the image the reader can make of him is quite fluid because he has a lot of potential that is used in the story. And then, not only our image of him changes, but also Jaime himself.

Brienne, on the other hand, behaves according to the actual chivalric code and is willing to follow it no matter what. She doesn’t let herself be stopped by conventions saying no to her and for that, she faces a huge amount of backlash. Brienne is how a knight should be, but society doesn’t accept her because she doesn’t fit the perfect, superficial image like Jaime (for being female in a misogynistic world). You might think that is admirable, and in a way, I agree. But it also means that Brienne behaves in a very dogmatic way, refusing many ways act right from the start because she can’t unite them with her naive dream of ideal chivalry. It doesn’t exist, and so Brienne fails. Often. The world throws rocks at her again and again and she hardly thinks of changing and adapting.

Chivalry is the most important thing to Brienne but it is also what harms her as society has lost and forgotten the meaning of chivalry. I can understand that she holds on to it to keep going, but that doesn’t mean that I have to like that. In my opinion, Martin is trying to say that chivalry is dead because it’s lost its meaning, so people have to find their own ways to do the right thing instead of clinging to something outlived. That idea appeals to me a lot, I have to admit. Brienne isn’t willing to reform her concept of chivalry although it’d would help her to protect herself. This might be my petty streak, but I would’ve respected someone more who realizes the flaws fo their beliefs and yet finds a method to integrate them into a more prolific way of life. Brienne’s behaviours irks me.

I think the dynamic of Sansa and Sandor deals with similar fallible assumptions of knighthood, but displays more nuance in the way Sansa reacts to her fracturing beliefs and learns from that.

I believe an appeal of Brienne and Jaime’s dynamic lies in changing him and less her. In a way, Jaime slowly learns to care for a stranger he starts with being as indifferent to as to nearly everyone else. That is pretty big for Jaime amd sparking his further development, but not a future romance (losing his hand also plays a role here of course, as it means that he too loses his perfect knight image and has to reevaluate how to embody knighthood). Brienne works as a role model he needed to change, but this development is unequal. IDK, I think their characters arcs are more about finding themselves instead of the other. So far as the books go, this dynamic doesn’t evolve. They’re two people who came to respect one another, nothing more. I don’t see him and Brienne suddenly walking down the romantic route together because they’re going in different ways. Of course, you might say they are going in similar ways because Jaime takes Brienne’s chivalry to heart, but that doesn’t erase all the shit he has done. He’ll have to face the consequences without hiding behind his family and his image and I don’t believe Brienne will follow there. She might listen, but I rather see her as his (fair) judge than someone who falls for him despite everything.

And all in all, I hate the sheer heteronormativeness of the ship. “Oh, we have a woman and man going through a quest and many dangers together and while they quarrle and get to know and grow fond of each other, so surely it has to mean they’ll fall in love!!” Eww, no thanks. As I elaborated above, Jaime merely learns not to be an arrogant ass and to treat someone who isn’t part of his esteemed disgusting family with decency and respect. Furthermore, Jaime isn’t even ready to be in another romantic relationship because while he doesn’t know how he feels for Cersei, he does know that he still feels too close to her. When I read the books, I tried to ignore any hints there might be a romance between Brienne and Jaime, and that worked because their interaction is platonic and should be allowed to remain so. Being an anti is more about many in the fandom wanting to see them together while I can’t stand the idea.